Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri Newman

 

Episode Intro Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on听, and .

Interview

Asher: Hello, everybody! Welcome back to another episode on the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective. My name is Asher, and I’m here with a very special guest today! Could you introduce yourself, say your name, your pronouns, a little bit about yourself?

Caleb: Oh, Asher, it’s such a pleasure to be here! My name’s Caleb Dardick, pronouns he/him. And, I think just I’m really pleased to have this opportunity to speak with you today about my book and about growing up in the disability rights community and independent living community. But, I do wanna be clear that I am non-disabled. I’m the child of disabled parents. My father had childhood polio, so he’s paraplegic from that. He’s actually passed away in 2011. My mother is still alive, and I grew up with her having an undiagnosed bipolar condition throughout my entire childhood. So, it wasn’t until she got diagnosed in her late 40s, and I would’ve been in my late 20s, that we knew that. So, that was something that was part of our life, but we didn’t have words for this鈥� I would say鈥� invisible or hidden disability. I have that personal experience. I’ve also worked very closely with disability rights organizations over 15 years in Berkeley, California. But, I’m not speaking for disabled people. I can only speak to what I witnessed, what my family taught me, and how my own understanding has sort of evolved over time.

Asher: Yeah, of course. I feel like experiences are the biggest thing when it comes to being knowledgeable and knowing a little bit more, at least about disabilities, in general, too. What’s the journey that led you to writing ““? It’s such a great book and I’ve had the chance to read it. But, I wanna hear a little bit about what led you to write this memoir.

Caleb: Yeah, I’m thrilled. I’m thrilled that you enjoyed it, and it’s coming out September 21st of this year. It’s been a book in the making鈥� I would say鈥� my whole life. But, I always thought it would be my parents’ book. Maybe just give you a little chronology here. I was born in St. Louis, Missouri in 1965, and the basic story of “The Adventures of Superfreak” is that my parents dropped out of mainstream suburban life in St. Louis and took their three kids on this open-ended VW van bus tour leaving Europe and going overland to India. A trip that could be done in maybe 10 days, direct route is about 4,000 miles, we spent almost three years on the road, about 20,000 miles in the van, spent a year in India, and that’s sort of the journey that’s covered in this book. That route from Europe to India, there were very few families, but there were tens of thousands of young people who made that trip and over time it became known as The Hippie Trail. The Hippie Trail, that particular route, really effectively closed in the late ’70s with the Iranian Revolution and just the sort of wars and instability that have plagued that region ever since, even to this current day. But, at that time, 1970 to ’73, when we were on the road, it was very exciting, very dynamic, very much a western caravan. People were seeking; the joke that my parents used to say is that it was a search for “hashish” or “nirvana”, whatever came first. I think there really was that sense of both pilgrimage, spiritual pilgrimage, inspired by The Beatles and Allen Ginsberg, but also just the adventure of it, and we were certainly part of it. I think people reacted when they heard our story, especially when we returned, and said, “You gotta write a book” to my parents. In part, because they were responding to my father being disabled, that he did all of this using a wheelchair, and my parents had three little kids. I was the oldest at five, my little sister was 18 months, in diapers. So, the idea of a family with little kids, a father who’s a paraplegic, really captured people’s imagination. My parents did try to write the book, but it was a little too heavy for them. It was a little too close, and they didn’t pursue it. Somewhere about 18, 20 years ago, I started writing stories of my own just for fun, just as a creative outlet. I had these memories that were really strong for me from just my own memories. I would write them down, and they would be like these two to three-page stream of memories, stream of consciousness vignettes. I called them “jazzy”. But, I just kept doing it, and then my wife and I joined with another couple to do memoir writing together, and I would share these stories. The three women in our group would say, “Oh, that’s such a fun story, but how did it make you feel?”. Then I’m being pushed to sort of like find that emotional connection to the story, which I ultimately did, and at some point it was like, “Okay, if I’m gonna do this, let’s turn it into a book.” And, that’s been fine, but I’ve also been fully employed and trying to find weekends to do this project. So, professionally, I’ve worked for the University of California and the City of Berkeley, so I’ve been involved in local politics and government. I’ve been community relations consultant. I worked for 15 years as the project manager for the, which was, is, is a one-stop service center for people with disabilities in Berkeley, California. That’s named in honor of Ed, who on a personal level is a family friend, so that was, you know, made it even more special. He was a family friend. And we could talk more about the Ed Roberts Campus. That definitely shaped my perspective. I went to UC Santa Cruz in the ’80s. What else should I tell you about my background leading up to this? It’s been a great journey. It’s was 鈥� it’s a fun adventure to tell. It’s a hard story to tell because of some of the challenges. My parents were actually married for almost 50 years, but this period is actually the four hardest years of their marriage. So that was kind of challenging for me to feel comfortable talking about their marriage and sharing their story. But they knew I was doing this and encouraged me, gave me their journals and letters. And my mom is actually reading the book right now and loving it, so I feel okay. But it is, it is a lot. It’s been a great project, and I’m just so proud that it’s done and that other people like yourself are finally getting a chance to read it.

Asher: Yeah, no, it’s such a unique memoir. Reading through it, it also felt like a dream in and of itself, too. It didn’t feel like it happened, but then at the end, it’s sort of like seeing the pictures and like, oh, that actually happened, kind of thing. Yeah. Uh, what inspired you? I wanna know. Was there a moment where like, “Oh, I should make this into a book” kind of thing? And you talked a little bit briefly about it, sharing these different stories as an outlet to your group of friends. But when did you actually like be like, “Oh, yeah, I should turn this into a book” kind of thing?

Caleb: I think, you know, just technically when I had, like, 20 stories, and all of a sudden it was like they were all independently written, but it was like, this is enough content to start having a book. And the other women in my group were writing memoirs and, and so we started talking about, well, what would it be like as a book? And then it was like, well, what is it? That question, how does it make you feel, also leads to the question is, well, what is it really about? Because plenty of adults, you know, who were adults then in the ’70s, have written memoirs about the hippie trail. In fact, most famously, Rick Steves, the travel guy, was really famous for travel books, has written his own memoir when he was 23. But as far as I can tell, there are no memoirs from the hippie trail from the kid’s perspective. What’s it like to be the kid in the backseat? And to really look at, you know, what’s it like to grow up in the counterculture, not to choose it, right? My parents dropped out from one way of life and chose an open-ended, new way of life. But as the kid, you’re along for the ride. And the counterculture, I mean, it’s gonna be 60 years next year anniversary of the Summer of Love. There’s gonna be some nostalgia for the ’60s, but I don’t want it to be a nostalgic book. I want it to be, what was it like? What is the counterculture like as a sort of lived family reality, right? And as for me, with all that wonder, but also the instability, with all that longing and danger, but also the excitement and the fun. So contradiction, right, is sort of inherent in talking about this story. And then the other piece which, because disability in my family was ordinary, it was matter of fact, my father was disabled. People would ask me, “When did your father get disabled?” Thinking that it happened in the course of parenting me, but he was disabled at age 13. So I only knew him, you know, as a person with a disability and used a wheelchair and leg braces and crutches. It took me a while to sort of go, “This is actually a disability story.” And then trying to explain my mother’s behavior in the book. Sometimes there’s some pretty heavy things that she does. And I know as an adult now that she’s bipolar. But how do I tell that story in the book? How do I really talk about growing up with disabled parents with a visible disability that everyone thinks they understand and can see, and then the invisible one for which there’s behavior, dramatic mood swings and behavior that seems inexplicable? Why would, why would someone’s mother do that? And with a diagnosis, of course, in hindsight, one can understand it and, and feel empathy. At the time, there’s just a sense of confusion. And then there’s also, in some ways, this book is a prequel. My parents end up in the early ’80s becoming really committed disability rights activists, and eventually they co-found an ILC, which is an independent living center in Northern California, which still is in operation 40 years later. And so growing up in the disability community is something that this sort of hints at or it, or at the very least leads to, and will be the subject of my, my sequel memoir, which I’m excited about.

Asher: Ooh, a little sneak peek. I’m excited about that. I look forward to maybe getting it and reading it one day,

Caleb: I w- I’m happy to share it with you

Asher: Aw, thank you. Um, yeah, looking back, was there a particular moment when you realized your childhood experience have shaped the person you’ve become? And while you had revisited deeply personal memories as you wrote the memoir, what was the process like for you, and did anything surprise you as reflected on your childhood?听

Caleb: I think one of the surprises for me is that Ironic. I think given听 non-disabled peoples’ sometimes view of, disability, I think some of them would be surprised to know that my siblings and I viewed my father as the rock of our family. And so I really came to put my father, as a child, on a pedestal as sort of that there was nothing he couldn’t do. And I think that in the writing of the book and really dealing with the disability and reading his journals, which he shared with me, I came to see that he was young and searching too. That there were times that he felt humiliated as a disabled person if he, you know, had to accept a piggyback ride or if he, you know, was in this really cool place but he couldn’t get around and he felt trapped, like feeling bad about feeling trapped. And that it, that he had to sort of deal with that on the road and realize, no, that isn’t how he had never accepted piggyback rides before. He didn’t put himself in situations where he was stuck. And so he had to kind of summon up that reserve to like remind himself of who he was and get himself out of those positions and say, “No, I’m, this is still a hard enough adventure. I’m not gonna make it even harder and put myself in a position where I need a piggyback ride. I’m going to have more self-control or self-possession there.” So the idea that he was learning, that he was struggling, that he felt pain, and then sharing that and trying to articulate that, that was definitely a powerful moment for me in writing the book. I think the other big thing that really stuck out for me reading his journals and knowing our story was this search for community, right? They, my parents, had rejected a lifestyle that they knew, and that was a very comfortable middle-class life. My father was a professor. He had his own business. And, you know, my mom was, uh, raised to be a homemaker and wanted to have a dozen kids and live a nice life, you know, as Americans viewed it. But then they gave it up. But then what we found is that just living on the road, we did better with other people. There was this looking for community. It maybe wasn’t fully articulated at first, but one of the first people we met on the road in Spain was a Roma family, a Romani family. And they showed us like how to travel. And, and so there was this reciprocity between the two families that was really beautiful. And then when we moved to the Canary Islands, and spent the winter there of 1970-71, we fell in with a big group of hippies who were escaping the cold of Europe to be on the beach and make leather goods that they would then sell. And that seemed like fun because we were all together and it was a nonstop party. But ultimately, the young people who were on the road, the young hippies are under 30, they don’t have kids, they’re partying all the time, and that’s not necessarily a great fit for a family. So that wasn’t the community fit that we needed. When we moved to India and my father taught architecture, in Ahmedabad, India, he made really good friends with an, a colleague who taught in the art school, who invited us to live with him in his extended family compound, where there were 25 family members, 25 artisans who were there during the day, and it was, you know, “We have room for you, Sam,” is what, you know, the, the Professor Piraji Sagara who’s actually a very famous artist in India, said. And that was fantastic living there, but you know, it was also, it’s not our home. You know, it was鈥� that wasn’t a place we were gonna stay in- indefinitely. We ended up going to an ashram after that, and then, uh, we were in the ashram for a while, and then an ashram life was very appealing because it was really healthy. It had a lot of discipline. It was this sort of spiritual practice that was very grounding for our family. But also ashram life, too, has its limitations. But one of the cool things that happened at that ashram is we met two men that became close friends, who said, you know, “If you’re ever in California,” and whenever you’re traveling, right, you always make friends, and they go, “If you’re ever in wherever, come see me.” Um, we actually did, and they were living at this spiritual retreat in Northern California called Ananda Village, which still exists And it sounded perfect. People were farming, building their own homes, creating their own spiritual education, and just having this sort of wonderful agrarian spiritual practice. And so we visited in late ’73 when we came back from India, and were quite enamored with it. We didn’t join the community, but we bought 50 acres adjacent. It was raw land, and so that became sort of part of this back to the land movement, which was happening in the, in the ’70s and ’80s. And my parents, who had never gardened anything and had, you know, never had an animal more than a domestic dog, all of a sudden had 50 raw acres, a four-acre pond, we’re raising animals, we’re putting in orchards and gardens. My dad’s doing it all from a wheelchair, and, uh, my mom’s freelance writing, and she’s writing stories about Sam the sit-down farmer. And we’re having this new adventure surrounded by hundreds of families who are doing the exact same thing, and that’s where I think we really landed, not in the auspices of someone else’s home or someone else’s ashram, but on our own land, but surrounded by community doing the same thing. And then I think the next level is when we became involved in the disability rights movement, finding a community there as well, first through disability sports. My father was a tennis player and wheelchair basketball player, and he would, you know, basically recruit anyone he saw in a wheelchair to play sports with him and created a league. And that was very good for the family, and especially my mother, because We were meeting all these disabled athletes who had girlfriends and wives and kids, and my mom didn’t feel as alone. And us kids also would meet other kids who had disabled dads, and so it became, um, another level of community for us. That was really special

Asher: Yeah, that is very special. I think it’s so important that no matter what, even if you don’t have a disability or if you have a disability, to find that right community, to surround yourself with like-minded people. I feel like that’s super, super important. And yeah, and your memoir definitely touches on that in several different facets of the journey kind of thing, and I love that. While your memoir explores your own life, it also invites readers to think about how people experience the world differently, I feel like. Um, has writing the book changed the way you think about disability, accessibility, or inclusion at all?

Caleb: You know, I think writing the book, like I said, at first I didn’t know what to say about it because it was just so obvious. It’s like describing air, you know? How do you write about breathing? But it, you know, the discipline of writing, I, I really have come to find that writing is a craft. In writing about my childhood, what had been ordinary to me I realized was not. Disability was not a side issue. It actually shaped how we traveled, how we solved problems, how we depended upon one another. My mom really liked the term interdependence, and I think there’s a lot to that. I like that, I like that idea as well. I don’t know if it’s still used as much, but it feels very inclusive to me, at least in the family unit. Writing this book, I had to really think about how to talk about physical disability and the bipolar disorder as distinct experiences that affected the family differently. And the difference, I think, especially with the hidden disability and also it being undiagnosed, is that with my mom, I had to navigate these extreme mood swings, and I write about this, right? Where I’m her biggest fan. She’s so exciting. She’s just larger than life and so engaged, and then she’s pushing us away and in bed, right? Depressed. And I would turn to my father, ’cause I sometimes would just feel so… It was so abrupt sometimes, the transition, for me as a kid, I didn’t know what to do. It hurt me. I mean, I, my feelings were hurt, right? And my dad would just say, “Oh, that’s just how she is,” you know, “That’s just your mom.” And I would find that really dissatisfying. So having the diagnosis in retrospect in the writing process, it played, hindsight allowed me to in some ways have more empathy, but also to get in touch with, well, how did I feel as a little kid? It sucked at times, and I totally idolized her because she was this colossus. When she was on, she was completely unafraid. She’d talk to anybody. She would just plunge into things, and that was exciting to be around. Of course, having her stuck in bed for days and not, you know, “Leave me alone,” wasn’t, wa- was the flip side of that, right? I think the other thing that I started having was really div- diving deep into my memories and feelings about my dad. Again, I sort of thought of him, if you asked me, as someone who could do anything. But even at six years old, I was starting to go off on adventures with other people to places that he wasn’t going to, and I came to understand, like, he wasn’t gonna go there. It wasn’t accessible to him. I didn’t have that vocabulary, but I had this pang, this longing, to share it with him. So I would describe it to him, and even into my, like, teens and 20s, whenever I traveled or went to some cool place in some rugged river canyon, I would think, “How could we get Dad there?” Like, “Can we bring him down in a boat? Can we … ” You know. And what I came to realize is that he was having his own life. He was having his own adventures, and he was happy for me to have mine. That was my trip, not his. But I definitely had that sense as a kid, like, “Oh, I wish Dad was here, too.”

Asher: Yeah. No, that’s really cool. How do you now define accessibility? Um, and you talked about it a little bit. What does accessibility mean to you, um, with your dad, for example? Of like trying to take him to these different places, or trying to show him about like, “Oh yeah, this is the Grand Canyon that I went to with all these rugged rocks that is not accessible at all,” kind of thing. But yeah, what does … How do you define it at this point in life after experiencing all these things?

Caleb: I think it’s, it’s such a rich question. You know, Asher, I think we could, we could talk all, all day about it, and certainly from my perspective as a non-disabled person, you know, is limited. I mean, there’s attitudes, and then there’s really … Maybe we should just focus for a minute on, like, the physical dimension, like the built environment, ’cause that’s something that is poignant for me in some ways, and then also professionally with the Ed Roberts Campus really got exposed to thinking about the built env vironment. So in a word or in two words, everything needs to be universally designed. Like, everything new, we need to be innovative, we need to be creative, we need to be taking in what are all the disabilities, using sound, using texture, to allow people to navigate freely, especially in public buildings, right? And we’re so far past barrier awareness. I mean, unfortunately, education is just we must always do, but at some point it’s like, okay, education with a purpose. Education needs to lead to barrier removal, right? Barrier awareness leads to barrier removal. That’s fine for existing architecture. How do we deal with everything that’s new? So let me talk a little bit about Ed Roberts, I think your listeners probably know who he was. You know, he was really a pioneer in the independent living movement. He was the first severely disabled student at UC Berkeley, and he’s credited with helping found the first independent living centers in Berkeley, and later the World Institute on Disability. He was a MacArthur genius. He was a California state director of rehab. Very cool guy. Traveled in an iron lung. My parents met him in a really funny way. I think I mentioned my mother was a freelance writer, and we have a mutual friend who met Ed at a conference and told my mom and dad, “You need to meet him.” My mom was like, “Oh, it sounds like a great story,” and reached out to him, and my dad accompanied her to these interviews with him, and she did a story for him about him in the early ’80s. But as they got to know each other and became friends, you know, one of the first things my dad said to him was, “Well, we don’t have an independent living center in Northern California. You should come start one up there.” And he was like, “Oh yeah, you need one, but you’re gonna do it.” So that sort of inspiration, right, activism, like, “No, you’re gonna do it.” But he also was very straight up with my father. My father was very athletic, and, some of what my father did, in Ed’s view, and later my father shared this view, was counterproductive to the movement. So for example, if my father came across an obstacle in a sidewalk, he would just jump the curb and wheel in traffic. Or if there was no curb cut, he would just pop a wheelie and bounce off the curb, right? So he just, he was mainstreamed, right? This idea of mainstreaming when my father had polio in the ’40s was, you know, you put on leg braces. You figure it out. Uh, you know, you try to walk whenever you can. And that’s wasn’t and isn’t the philosophy today. It wasn’t the philosophy even in the ’70s. The philosophy was, no, we need to improve society for everybody. And so Ed would make the case to my dad that every time you do that, you’re sending a signal to elected officials and decision-makers that, well, it’s not such a big deal. Look, he can just jump it, right? But the movement means you have to have a shared vision. Everyone has to hold that vision and move forward together. And so, you know, that was a little hard for me as a kid ’cause I was just used to, “Let’s go,” and he would do it. And then all of a sudden there was like, “Oh, no, we don’t do that.” So there was a learning curve for me too as a kid of, of someone who hadn’t been an activist and now was an activist, and now there were sort of, you know, we, took a stand on, on various things. So I had to learn how to do that. When Ed passed away, I was working in Berkeley and working for the Berkeley Mayor’s office, and I was asked to help convene a group to honor his legacy. And the or- initial conversations were like, let’s do a, a statue, street renaming, a plaque in a curb. And at that point, a lot of nonprofits that serve people with disabilities were facing rent increases. And this idea became let’s create a one-stop service station where all these disabled service providers could co-locate, and it could become like a hub for services, and it needs to be at a transit stop so that people can use public transit to get there. And that became the Ed Roberts Campus, and I ended up working for that project for 15 years. And we went through two ar- the first architect completely didn’t get it, didn’t listen. We had to fire that firm. And the second firm that we hired, actually my father was on the selection committee, I recruited him to help, and we picked this wonderful firm, Leddy Maytum and Stacy. And I remember talking to Bill Leddy, and he asked me what did accessibility mean to me vis-a-vis the Ed Roberts Campus. And I told him this story that every time my dad and I went to a public building, almost always there was this moment, especially public buildings, often have these grand staircases, entryways, big marble stairs or whatever. And schools and libraries all have this, right? These sort of grand entrance is completely inaccessible and they, you know, tagged on, tacked on rather, is some sort of switchback ramp that goes back and forth, usually on the side or the back of the building. And so for me growing up, I always had to face this moment with a father in a wheelchair where I could walk up to the top of the stairs and wait for him, and he could go up and down, or I could feel like the dutiful son and take this long walk with him up this ramp and do it together. And I just said to Bill Leddy, I just said, “Look, remove that. I want an entryway where a father and his, a dis- able-bodied kid and their disabled dad can just roll proudly in and not have to think about it, not have to make this uncomfortable choice where you’re confronted with your difference unnecessarily.” So that was a very powerful, for me, culmination of the activist education that we got from Ed, and then being able to apply it in the real world. And if you ever get a chance to come to Berkeley, you’ll see that it’s a grand welcoming plaza and all the doors open at street level.

Asher: That’s so cool. I love hearing just so many different definitions from people, and especially coming from you, where you have a background in, like, back in the day when disability wasn’t, like, really, what’s the word? Like you were saying, like, they just had to do what they could do kind of thing. Whether it’s pop a wheelie or, like, get a crutch and, like, sort of stand up and do it kind of thing. It’s so interesting to just hear how it was back then versus now, where everything should be universally designed, as you said. And it, I find it so fascinating, and I love it. I love hearing what accessibility is defined for different people and how that just changes the way they sort of view the world. I’m also curious, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about disability?

Caleb: Yeah. I mean, I could speak to what I’ve observed over the years, you know, my father being athletic. On one hand, he was sort of viewed as he’s overcoming disability, and how heroic. And now we even have a term for that, those types of stories, as sort of inspiration porn, right? Like, that’s not his whole story. That’s your projection onto what he’s doing to be able to cope with a barrier that may not need to be there. I think, you know, a lot of people still feel like, and I think this is understandable, that it’s a tragedy. And certainly in some cases, the inciting event, right, getting polio or falling off a roof or having in a car crash, it is, it is, it can be tragic, the circumstances. And there’s certainly a process that’s not always easy for people to come to, ultimately, an acceptance of being now a person with a disability and having it change their lives. And then there are people, of course, who are born with a disability, right? Either young or born. There are any number of disabilities. So this idea that it’s tragic is a misconception. This idea that anytime you do anything that sort of exceeds non-disabled people’s expectations is heroic is also a misconception In my book, what I wanted to sort of play with was both the ordinariness of disability from the perspective of a child who’s born into it, and then also the sort of societal projections that I’ve experienced too. So there’s a scene you might remember from the book in the very first chapter. I never narrate and say, “Oh, my father was paralyzed from the waist down due to childhood polio.” Like, I never write that sentence. Instead, I wake up before my parents do, I sneak out of the van, I see that the back door is lifted where they are sleeping on the bed, and I see my father’s pink, soft feet and these bony, polio atrophied legs poking out. And then, you know, I don’t wanna wake anybody, so I go around to the side of the van, and my father’s E&J wheelchair is parked there, and I sit in his chair, bored and waiting for them to wake up. So just simply by describing his feet and putting myself in this wheelchair, I’m trying to tell the reader that for me, that’s just, this is what I observed, right? But man, as I got older and started to understand what people were doing, it was really mind-blowing for me. I remember being in a grocery store, and this happened a couple different times, 10 or 11 years old, and people would ask me. They’d see me shopping with my dad, right, and I’m pushing the cart, and he’s coming along, and he’s put, taking things off the shelves and putting it in, and they’d sort of whisper to me, “Is he your real dad?” Cause they just couldn’t get over the idea that, like, a disabled person could have kids. And I think the subplot to that is they can’t imagine that disabled person could be sexual. And let me tell you, growing up in a VW van for three years, they are sexual! Uh, so I think that is a big piece, too, and, and I know that was an issue for my parents, sometimes hard for my mom. And I could see it, and I describe this in the book, if you remember. When my parents were asked, “How did you meet?” They would make up these crazy stories that they met on a battlefield or they met in a civil rights protest or something like that. And I always took those stories at face value. I knew they were making them up, and I thought they were funny. But I, what I came to do is I, in the sort of exploring for the book was, I think that they were responding to their assumption that the person, that the person who was asking was like, “How is it possible that an attractive woman would be married to a disabled man?” Maybe that’s not true, but that’s what I think was happening, and sometimes I think the more fantastic the story correlated to their distrust of that person’s motivations in asking the question. Maybe I’m wrong, but I write that in the book as a possibility. But my mom definitely got mixed feedback when she married my father of like, “What are you doing? You know, you’re gonna have a horrible life, and you might not have kids,” and, you know, people’s projections of that. And of course, my parents, although this book covers hard years for them early in their marriage, they ended up being married almost 50 years

Asher: Caleb, you bring a very big point. It’s so sad. There are definitely things people say whenever you meet a person with a disability or even when it comes to like being in a relationship with someone with a disability. It’s like, “Oh, you’re gonna have to take care of them for the rest of your life,” or, “Oh, this and that.” No, this person is a capable individual. And no matter if they have a disability or not, I’m not loving this person because of that. I’m loving this person because of their character or because of who they are.

Caleb: So beautiful, Asher, absolutely right.听

Asher: It’s so sad. No, I mean, I’ve also heard of these phrases before, and I faced definitely these kind of situations where it’s like that’s not fair. Like don’t, don’t say that.

Caleb: Yeah.

Asher: I usually just will be like, “Don’t say that. Just please don’t say that”

Caleb: From both of us!

Asher: Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely.

Caleb: For sure. No, thank you for sharing that.

Asher: Yeah, no, of course. Thank you, yeah, for sharing your memoir and just your personal experiences on the topic of disability and just disability advocacy and such. I’m interested to know like is there a particular moment in your memoir or an experience that comes to mind when you think of like disability advocacy or perhaps the way disability wasn’t understood or supported?

Caleb: I think I touched on this a little earlier, but let me go into it in some more detail, which is what happened when our family became politicized. You know, my parents are very much political people. They are civil rights activists. My mother was a very early women’s rights feminist, organized assertiveness training workshops for women. But it was interesting to me: they did not see the disability as a civil rights issue until the early ’80s. I think that’s interesting, right? Because the same … you could certainly extrapolate the Af- you know, African American civil rights movement, women’s rights movement, and that is what happened, right? It- those disability rights movement comes out of those movements. But they didn’t, they were just weren’t living in that world, and I think part of the 鈥� because of the way my father was also mainstreamed growing up. But boy, for us, once it shifted, once they made that connection, everything in our life changed almost overnight. My mom sort of tells this story that for her, like, you know, the straw that breaks the camel’s back was this moment when they were out celebrating their wedding anniversary and they were in this nice restaurant, and Dad had to use the bathroom. And so he excuses himself, and he goes to the restroom, and he finds that the doorway 鈥� And keep in mind, this is their wedding anniversary night, right? They’re dressed nice鈥� the doorway is too narrow, his wheelchair can’t fit through it. And so he drops out of his wheelchair, and he scoots along the floor and lifts himself up onto the toilet and uses the toilet. And my mother, something for her snapped, even though this wasn’t the first time that it happened. This is certainly not the first time she had seen him deal with an inaccessible bathroom before, but this time it was unacceptable. She was done. And she, my mom, is a very political person. She’s a very good researcher, a very good writer, and, it just became the never again moment. She started doing her homework. She found out that there were all kinds of laws in California already on the books, even pre-ADA laws on the book that say you had to provide accessible restrooms, and my parents both joined what was a volunteer thing called the Community Access Network, and they basically got trained to be access cops, and my mom took to it with a vengeance. I mean, they were busting restaurants and businesses left and right. They were testifying at city council meetings where the council was meeting in an inaccessible room. They started testifying at the state capitol. They were going to marches in San Francisco for transportation access, and it was just like all of a sudden we went from, *vroom*, zero to 60 miles an hour, having this thing happen. And at this point I’m 15, 16, 17 years old. And during this period they meet Ed Roberts. That becomes, they’d never even heard of the independent living movement, and then they are just so politicized. And at the same time, and I don’t know all the chicken and egg timing exactly but my father also forms this wheelchair sports association, and starts recruiting people in chairs to play tennis and to play basketball. And from that same group, which, you know, the beauty of disability is that it doesn’t care about religion, it doesn’t care about politics, it doesn’t care about race or class. And so it’s a very diverse group of people who he’s playing sports with, and they become politicized, and some of them become founding members of this board of directors that becomes FREED, which is the first Independent Living Center in Northern California that my parents co-found, and then my father becomes the first executive director, and then he becomes even more of a public advocate for disability rights at the state level through that. So that changed everything for us because now my dad wasn’t bop-bopping into the street to get out of an obstacle, he’s demanding it be removed. We’re not eating at restaurants with inaccessible bathrooms, we’re boycotting them. And he’s not doing things that he used to do because they’re not accessible to everybody. And at first I was, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I was like sort of like a little aggrieved or confused, like, why are we changing? Why is everything changing, you know? But by the time I was in my late teens, I was totally on board. You know, I felt the sense of community. I was meeting, other families. And, um, I remember that by 1990, the governor of California was threatening to completely defund the independent living centers throughout the state. And my father and others organized sit-ins to protest in front of the governor’s office, and I joined him, and I was on the floor amongst all these other people on the floor, and all these empty wheelchairs and crutches around us. And at one point, I’m lifted into the air by two state capital policemen, and they’re like, “Where’s your chair? Where’s your chair? Where’s your chair?” And I’m like, “Actually, I can walk.” And they’re just like completely confused, and they herd all of us down for citing and all the rest. But, you know, at that point, I, I was completely bought in, and really proud to be with my father in a moment like that. Yeah.

Asher: Yeah, no, I love that. That’s such a huge thing. I’ve seen, um, videos, from the late, you can correct me if I’m wrong, ’80s of just, like, the whole disability rights movements of people, like, crawling upstairs without wheelchairs and stuff.

Caleb: It’s so powerful.

Asher: It’s so powerful. And I love that they picked you up without knowing that you walk.

Caleb: My feet are dangling off the ground, but. It was really, it was very interesting. It was, um… There was an interesting thing I’ll share with you though that happened. We were all taken to be cited down in the, in the garage under the state capitol building. And on that same day, Act Up, which is an AIDS, LBGT group that was fighting for, you know, that something be done about, you know, HIV AIDS, they were there, and they were taking extreme, what would you call that? Just, um, very more extreme protests. They were throwing fake blood on the marble steps and and onto, you know, the statues and things like that, and they were being treated very roughly by the cops, and metal handcuffs, and we were just sort of being either, you know, little plastic ties or nothing at all. And I remember saying to my dad, “Oh, we’re doing it right, you know, and they’re, they’re doing it… Like, if they weren’t so extreme, they’d be being treated more gently.” And my father said, “Oh, no. You need to understand that in political activism, there’s this huge continuum, and without them, we couldn’t be effective. That the, there are times for non-violent protests, there are times for more dramatic protests. There are lots of different ways to make your voice heard, and what we did today was one way, sitting in front of the governor’s office, and what they’re doing is another way, and it’s all part of social protests and social movements and tactics. And in some ways, what they’re doing makes what we’re doing also effective.” So it was a real teachable moment for me. I’m probably not articulating it as well as I could, but it was鈥� it completely was like, “Oh, I get it now.” And, um, you know, it isn’t like there’s some sort of, oh, there’s this neat and tidy way to protest, and that there’s a sort of, oh, another way that’s not neat and tidy and somehow not as effective. They’re all effective, and they’re all part of this sort of protest ecosystem that’s needed when it’s needed. So it’s a little鈥� that was a bit of a, a diversion, but it happened on the same day and definitely sort of had this big impact on me, and it was also a really beautiful moment between me and my father, where he was able to share with me, you know, his own stories, ’cause he had protested the Vietnam War and other things where there was more direct action involved. So it was… Yeah, it was one of those sort of special moments

Asher: I feel like that’s very, powerful, just the whole idea of, like, there is a time to do something more drastic, and there is a time to do peaceful protesting. Like, there’s definitely a time and place for every single one of them, depending on the situation, and especially for, like, disability rights, I feel like, or for any kind of human rights or, yeah, et cetera. Um, yeah, we’re getting to the last couple questions right now, Caleb, and you’re one of the, like, first couple of authors that we’ve ever interviewed on our collective, which is amazing, and we love to ask this question: What responsibilities, if any, do writers have when representing people whose experiences differ from their own, whether it’s a disability or whether it’s from a different culture?

Caleb: Oh, it’s such a great, it’s a really great question. I appreciate you asking it, Asher. Um, you know, I think I need to just be clear that my authority begins and ends with what I know, what I witnessed, how my parents’ lives affected me. So I’m, I think I said this, I’m not claiming to know even anything about them that they either didn’t tell me or wrote about and shared with me. And I’m certainly not taking on the role of spokesperson for any larger community. But I do think that writers must hold onto their creativity to imagine other people’s lives, especially in fiction. Which memoir is not, y- you know, but in fiction especially. And I think it comes to disability, and this is so hard for me sometimes to read books or to see movies and TV shows where I really take issue with how a person with a disability is portrayed. And most of the time I’m not happy at all, but I, I would like to challenge writers to create disabled characters who are full, complex human beings, not just their diagnoses, not just something heroic or pathetic or symbolic, right? And this is kind of a little bit of a fantasy for me. I think like a lot of people, I want my book to be turned into a movie, right? But at the same time, I’m kind of scared because what would some mainstream shop do with my family’s story? I don’t want them to portray my father as some inspiring wheelchair user and just totally counteract everything he believed in, or to do my mom, just make her, “She’s a mentally ill mother,” as opposed to someone more complex, which she is. So here’s what I would say to my fellow screenwriters and writers is like, keep it interesting. Preserve the contradiction. You know, be able to hold multiple ideas at once that a person with a disability could be competent and experience difficulty. That being raised by a disabled parent can be loving, and there are parts that can be harmful. That you can be idealistic, and there can be consequences as a result. And all of that complexity can coexist in a story about people with disabilities. So go for it. But, you know, don’t make a claim that you don’t have a right to. Don’t go for easy, easy labels and easy fixes.听

Asher: For sure. Yeah, no, a big one. Yeah. It’s very difficult whenever we do see movies, TV shows that sort of portray disabilities in not a realistic way, I would say. There are some movies, and I’ve seen some pretty good ones that do portray, like whether it’s sign language or Deaf or hard of hearing, and they portray it in a really awesome and great way, and kudos to directors for doing that. Awesome. But yeah, no, definitely, it’s a huge balance of keeping it creative but also making it realistic kind of thing, and you touched greatly on that. Yeah, for sure. If every listener could make one change that would help create a more accessible world, what would you hope it would be, Caleb?

Caleb: My, my, my three wishes to the genie?

Asher: Yes. Yes, definitely. Three wishes Go for it

Caleb: God. I mean, I think we need to be talking about non-disabled people, right? We have to stop making assumptions about what a disabled person is capable of. You know, I mean, I’ve told you so many stories about my family already, but one of the ones that’s just so irritating even to this day is that my father went to grad school at UC Berkeley to study architecture, and he entered a contest and won it that provided a paid internship with the city of Berkeley. And he got to the building, the offices were on the fifth floor, no elevator, was using full leg braces and crutches, and he got himself to that meeting on time, and they took one look at him and said, “Oh, we can’t give you, we can’t give you the job. It, it would be too hard for you.” And it was so patronizing and so insulting. And, um, you know, my father was pissed, but he was undeterred, and he did go on to become a city planner and an urban design professor. And, uh, so yeah, I think that story for me just illustrates again, and this comes up every day, don’t assume what the other person needs. Don’t look at somebody and go, “Oh, they can’t do it.” Ask them. I feel like there’s a lack of, there’s a fear maybe around litigation, but just frigging ask people respectfully, “What do you need to make this work? What would a reasonable accommodation look like?” And not assume they can’t do it. Maybe nothing’s needed at all. There’s this, uh, very well-known adage in the disability rights community, I’m sure you’ve heard it, which is, Nothing About Us Without Us. And that’s really a pointed reminder at them, right? So I think is we know that disabled people need to be at the table when it affects their lives. And if you’re a non-disabled person, so this is my wish, if you’re a non-disabled person at the table, and you’re dealing with policy programs, investment, et cetera, that’s gonna affect the lives of disabled people, look around the table. If they are not there, stop the meeting and get them there. Or have them convene the meeting. It’s this idea of trying to backfill later: ” Oh, we need a, we need representation. We, you know, let’s go find, fill in the blank, person with a disability, person of color.” I mean, it’s, we have to stop that sort of phony representation and actually go, What’s the topic about? Who’s this for? And make sure that it’s their, that the people that it’s for are running the show. And that’s the philosophy I grew up with my father. He believed in community advocacy. That was actually a principle of urban planning, is that you don’t come in and tell a low income neighborhood what they need. You spend time in the community interviewing and meeting and empowering leadership from within so that they design their own community. That was as smart and on point I think at, in the ’60s when my father was practicing as it would be today. It’s like … And that’s what happened with the Ed Roberts Campus. We had an 18-member board all representing organizations who served disabilities and, it was that ultimate nothing about us without us. It was us. We weren’t doing anybody else. And I got to, I got the honor of being a project manager on that for many years, so I learned a lot.

Asher: Well, Caleb, thank you so much for, um, speaking to me today, uh, about your book. Um, and yeah, we’re looking forward to seeing it come out in the bookstore. Do you have any final messages or any hopes for readers who will read your book later on?

Caleb: Well, thank you. I hope people read the book and get the book. It’s called The Adventures of Superfreak: My Childhood on the Hippie Trail. It comes out September 21st. And I just hope that people carry way a greater tolerance for complexity. Obviously I’m a kid, and so my parents are a big part of the story, and I hope they see them, you know, as disabled people, as adventurers, as seekers, as parents, as advocates, as imperfect humans. Disability is certainly central to our family, but it’s not the only explanation of who we are and who we were as a family. I hope readers recognize that access and belonging are collective responsibilities, and that children are witnesses to the worlds adults create. Telling my story from a child’s perspective, I really want to focus that. We’re not just sort of baggage. We’re actually taking it all in. So I hope that, you know, we look more carefully at children inside history. What’s it like to grow up in movements, and what’s our responsibility for creating communities where we all can belong and feel part of? I think that sense of belonging is really important for children, and it’s important for all of us. And I, I hope that’s something that our readers will feel and take away from my book.

Asher: For sure. Thank you so much once again, Caleb. Appreciate, talking to you

Caleb: It’s been my pleasure, and, thank you for the opportunity.听

Episode Outro Disclaimer

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .听

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Introduction

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on听, and .

Meet the Guests

Asher: Hello, Let’s Talk! Listeners! My name is Asher, and I am here with some very special guests today from The Wheelchair Repair Shop. Do you guys mind introducing yourselves, your name, occupation, and your pronouns, please?

West: Sure! Thanks, Asher! This is a wonderful opportunity to share a little bit about ourselves. My name is West Livaudais, and I’m the executive director of Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, and my pronouns are he/him.

Tyler: Thanks, Asher. My name is Tyler. I use he or they pronouns, and I am one of our repair coordinators here, at The Wheelchair Repair Shop.

Asher: Awesome. Thank you guys so much for joining me today.听

What the Repair Shop Is

Asher: For listeners who may not be familiar with your work, what is The Wheelchair Repair Shop and how did it come to exist?

West: Yeah, so The Wheelchair Repair Shop is a new program that Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is launching. It really came out of our wheelchair maintenance workshops, which is a monthly workshop that is hosted in multiple cities around the state. We meet for two to three hours, and we provide, education, free access to tools, and the space to help people address their critical wheelchair needs. Sometimes that’s simple maintenance or repairs, and we utilize volunteers that have a heart for this work to really make this program come alive. So, the wheelchair repair shop is an effort to expand the hours and we’re starting in Portland. We have a space and we have, I think it’s, four shifts of four hours each month currently.

Asher: Awesome. Cool. Thanks for that, West.听

From Workshops to Shop

Asher: What role does The Wheelchair Repair Shop play within the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection?

West: So, the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is like the parent organization, and The Wheelchair Repair Shop is like a microenterprise, or a small business, within the organization. The shift from “The Wheelchair Maintenance Workshops” to The Wheelchair Repair Shop is a shift from thinking about the work purely from a nonprofit perspective; getting grants and donations to do this work, and provide free services and parts to people, utilizing the revenue that comes through, providing services and repairs to make the program more sustainable, expand the services, and provide different modes in which people can access those services. Namely, mobile options and providing good quality, new parts, to people that can’t afford, perhaps, like brand new equipment.

Asher: I feel like that’s a very important part for people who do use wheelchairs and are wheelchair bound. They need the accessibility to be able to grab the parts they need in order to fix their wheelchairs and be able to move around. That’s a very huge work. Thanks for doing that.听

How They Got Here

Asher: Can each of you tell us a little bit about your background and what brought you to this work?

Tyler: I can start first, West. So, I’m actually not a wheelchair user. My background is that I was a bicycle mechanic for a really long time and I got interested in organizing around public transit, walkable cities, urban infrastructure… Through working in those groups, I ended up getting introduced to West and Allison, who started The Wheelchair Repair Nights at Bike Farm. I had no connection to the disability world, or anything like that. But, they told me, “Hey, we’re starting this wheelchair repair event and we think you’d be great.”. My first thought was, I don’t know anything about wheelchairs or repairing them, or anything, how can I be helpful? But, I’m really glad that they both pushed on me a little bit, because it turns out that repairing wheelchairs is really, really similar to the kind of skills that I had from working on bikes. It’s been really exciting to, over the years, kind of use these skills I already had, but use them in a different way that’s really impactful. So, it’s just been really fun, and I’ve really enjoyed kind of working with this program. But, yeah. I did not come at this from a disability sort of background. I came into it from more of just like a mechanical and volunteering thing. But, I will say like learning about this gap in services that the current kind of repair industry is leaving people in; it’s been really motivating and really encouraged me to dive deeper into the disability-related work.

West: I’ll go next. So, I do have a spinal cord injury, in 2013, and out of that experience started Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection to try to create community and access to services and resources that I didn’t experience. Part of that experience of becoming a wheelchair user was navigating durable medical equipment services and getting access to learning how to repair my chair. It wasn’t easy and it quickly became obvious that it’s easier to do it with somebody else’s help. Specifically, to Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, my spinal cord injury is what brought me to that work, as a wheelchair user. Trying to navigate durable medical equipment, companies, and fixing my chair on my own really was the idea that brought Allison and me together to start The Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop.

How OSCIC Started

Asher: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing how The Wheelchair Repair Shop and how The Spinal Cord Injury Connection also came to be. I know you touched on this a little bit, West. But, what fully inspired you to create the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection? Was it simply your injury, something else, or…

West: yeah, I guess what I would share is; after my spinal cord injury, I was trying to make sense of the world and move forward as best I could. I was working in Public Health and I started a degree at OHSU to get a Master’s Degree in Public Health. That, in addition to my experience with spinal cord injury, galvanized me to host meetups where I would meet other people and we could share stories and build community. Those meetups were really well-received and more and more people came; they were here in Portland. Over the course of a year, or two years, they kinda became… I don’t know what to say. But, basically, people knew that they were there and I was encouraged to try to make it something more, and that’s when we became a nonprofit. So, what I try to do and what I’ve tried to create with Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is, a space where people can thrive and find community after a really devastating injury. It can be very devastating and families can find themselves at a loss without resources and it’s very disruptive at nearly every level of a person’s life; physically, educationally, job-wise, relationally. It just turns everything upside down. What I’ve come to learn over these years is that, more than money, more than the level of injury that a person has, like a really serious injury or a lesser, almost any other factor; having strong community support is one of the greatest indicators that someone will thrive after a spinal cord injury. So, to put it simply, starting the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection was my way of metabolizing something that happened to me and trying to make it positive.

Why Repair Matters

Asher: That’s awesome. As soon as you started the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, you saw some gaps that were unmet in the community. Was that how you identified that wheelchair repair was such an important service to offer?

West: Yeah. Tyler alluded to this previously. But, people that use wheelchairs, rely on wheelchairs for their independence and, getting out into the community quickly realize that the medical industrial complex has a lockdown on wheelchair repair and parts. It’s difficult, it’s frustrating, and it can actually have serious negative health consequences for a person when their chair breaks down. It has physical aspects and emotional aspects and it’s really cool to come together with bike mechanics who care about wheelchair users and watch them learn what a wheelchair is. In those conversations at The Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop, at Bike Farm in Portland, I’ve seen wheelchair users impart their experience to the mechanic and the wheelchair user didn’t realize they knew so much technical aspects about their chair. Then the bike mechanic picked it up and started helping and working alongside this wheelchair user to fix what needed to be fixed. I guess for me, in a city that loves bicycles, there could not be a more like synergistic, symbiotic partnership. That’s what I’ve seen with these Wheelchair Maintenance Workshops, at the Bike Farm in Portland, every month. People coming to learn, people coming to be in community getting their wheelchair fixed when they’re really in a pinch. It’s a joyful place. It hums with positive energy and Tyler is kind of leader in that space. He has a ton of experience and like I think he’s naturally talented at problem-solving and people love to learn from him, and we all love to learn from each other. I’m not sure if that exactly answered the question, but it gives you a little bit of insight into the spirit of what this work is about.

Asher: It’s great. I love it! Yeah, definitely answered the question. Thinking about it, bicycles and wheelchairs sort of do have the same part, and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not an expert at that either.

West: I’ll let Tyler answer that.

Proud Moments and Growth

Asher: I’ll get to that question as well, later on down the line in our list of questions too. Looking back, West, is there a moment or success story that makes you especially proud? Whether it’s The Wheelchair Repair Shop that you guys have opened up recently or the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection?

West: I would say there are many things that I’m proud of. Not only for Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, but also for the Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop. Of all of those things, what comes to mind immediately is the years that Alison and Tyler and I showed up at Bike Farm during COVID and during wintertime when nobody showed up. We tried, and we tried, and the season wasn’t right, perhaps. But, they stuck with it and there were times where I’m like, “Why haven’t you given up on this or given up on me with this?”. I realized then it wasn’t “Tyler and Alison doing West a favor” to lift this program and make it happen; it was their work their passion. Their care for this community. It’s like when a match lights another match, now you have two flames. This is what’s happening with the Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop and the Wheelchair Repair Shop, in Portland and around the state, is when we empower somebody with tools and equipment and companionship, their mechanical literacy improves, they have more confidence and they have a place to come to with this problem. With this challenge of living a life, in a wheelchair; maintaining it. That gives me so much joy. Tyler’s here. I’m very grateful to Tyler and, Alison is not here, I’m very grateful to Alison. We wouldn’t be here today. We wouldn’t have the success we had and The Wheelchair Repair Shop probably wouldn’t happen.

Tyler鈥檚 Coordinator Role

Asher: That’s super sweet! Thanks for that, West.听 I’m moving the questions onto Tyler. I’m sorry to leave you out of that whole conversation. What does a typical day look like for you as a Wheelchair Repair Coordinator at the Wheelchair Repair Store?

Tyler: Yeah. So, “coordinating” is definitely the key word there. We are really new, making this move from something that we’re doing once a month to having a physical store where we’re open once a week. As we’ve opened, we’ve already been sort of flooded by repair requests. Which is great on the one hand and, on the other hand, it really highlights the size of this problem. That there’s so many people in the Portland area, that are not having these mechanical issues fixed in a timely or safe kind of manner. But, the coordinating part of my job is just fielding all of those requests and trying to pair people up with our volunteers, who are awesome and have really widely different skill sets. So, trying to pair a person with a volunteer who is going to be able to help them with whatever it is that they’re working on; whether it’s a power chair or they need some help with some seating adjustments, or whatever it is. Just trying to tie specific people in our community who have this need with a volunteer who has the time, energy, and skills to help them. So, yeah. A lot of coordinating, a lot of networking, and it’s really been cool to watch this kind of network get built.

Asher: Are you mostly in the store all the time now that it’s open, or do you do a lot of work from elsewhere?

Tyler: I do work from home mostly. This is not my full-time job, so I do it on the side and a lot of it is email and phone-based to just reach out to people; make sure that they feel heard. “Hey, we’ve received your request. We’re getting you connected with someone.”. Another thing that’s been really interesting is, thanks to some recent legislation that we helped get passed last year; we’re now able to access a lot more repair documentation online. Which means that a big chunk of my job now is also this computer research element; trying to figure out, “hey, this person, they gave me the serial number for their wheelchair. Let’s see if we can figure out, based on the service manual, what kind of batteries it has”, or something like that. So, that was not something I expected as much, but it’s become a larger part of my job lately. Is this kind of internet sleuthing, trying to figure out what could be causing this problem, or how does the manual recommend that we fix it? What have other people on the internet, across the world, done to solve these problems? Because we’re often kinda operating in an ecosystem where there isn’t always great info about how to solve these things. So, that’s been an unexpected but fun sort of component lately, too.

听

Right To Repair Bill Explained

Asher: What is this law that was passed that you mentioned, last year, if you don’t mind talking a little bit about it?听

Tyler: So, Oregon, a few years ago, passed a Right To Repair Bill. When it was first passed, the Right To Repair Bill covered consumer electronics. So, things like cell phones, TVs, laptops. The point of a Right To Repair Bill is to really break the monopoly that companies have on repairing devices. The most common one that everyone is familiar with would be smartphones. So, for a long time, if your screen broke; on iPhone, you had to take it to the Apple Store. In states with Right To Repair, you can have third-party repair businesses. So, all of a sudden, these businesses pop up that repair cell phones from all kinds of brands. These parts, the service diagrams, all of these things are made available to whoever kind of wants to fix them. So, you can fix them yourself, you can hire someone at a repair shop to do it, or you can take it to the manufacturer. You essentially have options when you want to decide how something gets repaired. Last year, what we helped get passed was that durable medical equipment, including powered wheelchairs, got added to the existing Right To Repair Bill. So, now it covers phones, laptops, computers, but also, really importantly, things like power chairs. So, companies can no longer sort of hide behind this monopoly. They now have to make these documents, tools– specialized tools, is another one. I think the text of the law says they have to be made available to the public at a reasonable price. So, if there’s some specific tool where it’s like you need this specific wrench to work on this specific object, that wrench has to be made available to the public at a, quote, “reasonable price”. So, that’s been really huge for us in helping to make sure that we actually can repair things. For a long time, a lot of repair tasks were sort of locked up, because these companies were hiding behind this monopoly.

Asher: Oh, interesting! Wow, I had no idea that wheelchairs, in general, don’t have an instruction manual or don’t have a way of telling you, “Oh, this is how you repair it in case this thing breaks down.”! I would think that machinery would have something that goes with it! But, I’m also very glad that that law has now been passed, and it was passed last year? Is there a name for the law itself, or I completely missed it, probably?

Tyler: West, do you remember what it was? I want to say it was “SB 55”, in Oregon?

West: Yeah, I think it was “SB 550”.

Tyler: “550”. Thanks. Yeah听

West: Championed by Senator Janeen Sollman.

Common Fixes and Issues Encountered at the Shop

Asher: That’s so good. I’m so glad that wheelchairs, especially machine-operated wheelchairs, now are able to be properly repaired and with the right tools at a reasonable price. With that, what are the most common repairs or issues encountered at The Wheelchair Repair Shop? Do you mostly fix “machine-based” wheelchairs or “manual”? Yeah, there we go. Correct me if I’m wrong with those terminologies and such.

Tyler: Yeah, I actually get asked this question a lot, and I always kind of get excited about it. Because, the answer is that the most common stuff is really, really small stuff. For example, “Hey, this bolt is loose. Can you tighten it?”. There’s so many things that– I’m surprised– don’t actually require, specialized tools or a whole workshop to fix. There’s so many times where people are like, “Hey, could you just raise the feet on my power chair by a half an inch?”, or “Can you tighten this bolt that’s coming loose?”, “Can you put this cup holder on the left side instead of the right side?”. Some of these things are really small, mechanically. But, of course, they make a really big difference to people. It’s like a bug in your brain when your wheel is squeaking everywhere you go. We just have to put a little bit of oil on that and tighten this bolt and it goes away. A lot of the things are not very complicated, so there’s a lot of repairs that kind of fall into that category. There’s kind of another category of just, wear and tear. We do live in a pretty rainy place, so it’s pretty common for bearings to get rusty, or just dirty from the water kind of splashing around in the wheels all the time. So, we replace a lot of bearings. Tires are another thing that just wear out over time as people roll on them, so we replace tires. Another one that has been coming up a lot lately is power chair batteries. Just like a cellphone batteries only have so many cycles of being charged and discharged before they wear out. So, some power chair batteries can last two to five years. But, oftentimes, when people get to the end of the life of the power chair batteries, they notice, “oh, it’s getting really slow. It doesn’t hold a charge for very long.”. So, that’s another thing that people pretty frequently reach out to us about.

Barriers in Traditional Repair

Asher: You mentioned this a little bit, Tyler. But, what are some challenges people face when trying to get repairs through traditional channels? Whether it’s like coming into the shop to get it fixed or even going online; you were talking a little bit about like forums and trying to figure out the whole internet space of getting requests in for repairs and such.

Tyler: Yeah. This is definitely a topic that could be a whole hour-long podcast. Because, as with so many complex issues, there’s some sort of small things and then there’s some really big structural things. One of the really big structural things is in this country we have this whole insurance system of approvals and denials. I think everyone who’s interfaced with the medical world knows that can sometimes take a long time. People are also sometimes required to prove medical necessity for things. So, maybe you already have a wheelchair, but in order to get a repair done on the thing you need to prove to your insurance company that you still need this wheelchair. So, there’s all these kind of steps that we’ve added to the medical system that require people to document things, get stamped by 5 to 10 people, and all this stuff causes really long delays; which is really what makes it unacceptable. To have these repair companies telling people, “Well, we can’t come out to even look at it to diagnose the problem for three to six months.”. Then they figure out, “we need to replace your tires.”, then it’s gonna be another three to six months before they can go through that whole process, get insurance on board, order the parts, install them… at the workshops, people tell us a lot of horror stories about technicians who show up at their houses unannounced, so they weren’t home and then they say, “You missed your appointment. You have to wait.”. There’s so many things that just make it really hard for people to access. Which is why, increasingly, people are taking this more DIY, sort of, approach. So, one of the things that we kinda offer people is; a lot of the stuff that we’re doing is not really “medical”, in the sense that there are lots of things on wheelchairs. For example, seating adjustments, fitting, that you should have a professional custom fit the wheelchair for you. But, there’s other things, for example, putting new tires on; that aren’t really a medical procedure so much as they are just like a repair procedure. So, a lot of the stuff that we try to do is say, “Hey, like we can handle that stuff. That is well within our wheelhouse. You shouldn’t have to jump through all these hoops. We can tell you where to get tires from. We can help you figure out what size. We can install them.” So, even though some people are willing to go the DIY route, there’s another kind of thing too where some people, maybe they live in an apartment, they don’t really have space, maybe they don’t have tools, maybe whatever disability they have is limiting their hand function; they may not physically be able to hold a wrench in the way that is needed to do something like change a tire. So, that’s another place where we can come in and say, “Hey, we’re doing this still in a DIY, type of way”, but it’s really more of a “do it together”. To say, “How much do you wanna be involved? Do you wanna try to do this yourself? Would you like me to do it for you?”. We really try to work with you, but it’s still a very DIY process.

Asher: That’s awesome and great that even with all these different hoops of like insurance– I know that can be a really big nightmare to hop through– that The Wheelchair Shop is there to help out people in a very quick way or a very “DIY way”, as you mentioned. I’m sure that once there is a broken wheelchair, it quickly becomes a very big major life disruption for someone as well.听

Stories That Show Impact

Asher: Are there any repair stories that have stayed with you, or even with West, as well, just because of the difference that it made for someone’s life?

Tyler: Yeah, I can take this one first, and then I’ll pass it to West. But, every one of these stories, everything sticks with you. Because, you hear these horror stories from people and it’s just very aggravating. But, also very motivating. People are very thankful when you help them out, because of these things that they’ve gone through trying to get service. But, some of the stories that stick with me; there was a person who, the batteries ran out on their mobility scooter and, because of that, they were living in a skilled nursing type facility. We replaced the batteries in this scooter, and that was the difference for them between independence and living in the skilled nursing facility. So, they were able to return to like a more traditional apartment and live independently, which was lower cost for them, and also a much better experience for their mental health because they’re independently living, right? That’s a really empowering thing for a lot of people to do. So, there’s stories like that, where there’s this one mechanical piece of the puzzle that is keeping someone from something, and it’s really satisfying to go in and just literally fix that thing that is a barrier to this goal of theirs. Especially at all the monthly Bike Farm Workshops; there’s so many small repairs that we make that make a big difference to people. We’ll change the bearings out on someone’s wheelchair, they go to push it forward, and they’re just like, “Oh, whoa, this rolls so fast now!”. That was a five-minute little project and it made such a big difference to that person. That stuff is just like really, really heartening and so cool to see every time. I’ll pass it to West.

West: Thanks, Tyler. I have two short stories I would share that kinda illustrate why The Wheelchair Repair Shop is needed. The first is, one of my employees used a manual wheelchair and had a secondary chair. His primary manual wheelchair had a flat tire and he decided to go kind of, the recommended route of going to his primary care provider to get a referral to the DME Company to have his tire changed on his wheelchair. Basically, once he did that, he started the clock to see how long it would take for somebody to come fix his chair and being paid through insurance. It took three or four months to have an inner tube changed out of his primary chair. I think about that; there’s a lot of reasons why it is the way it is. That would also be another long podcast of describing why there are these breakdowns and the way the system’s set up. But, most people, would go to a bike shop and have somebody change the tube. It would cost a lot less. It would be a lot quicker. So, that was kind of an experiment that we ran just to see how bad is it really? A simple repair like an inner tube being changed shouldn’t take three or four months and it shouldn’t cost more than twenty-five dollars. It has such a huge impact. The other thing is a lot of people don’t have secondary chairs just hanging around that they can use. Another story is a good friend of mine, who uses a power chair, had the motors go out on his chair. It was a similar situation, it was a pretty new chair, and the motor should not have gone out. It took six months for him to get his chair back into his primary chair and, during that six months, he used another chair that wasn’t fit for him, or wasn’t suited to him. So, for those six months, it was really uncomfortable to be in a chair that wasn’t fitted for him and wasn’t his. When we’re able to quickly sidestep, or navigate, around all the requirements, that the medical industry requires of insurance, we’re able to get people batteries, fixed bearings, and get them back to living the life they love. Without the heartache and the frustration and the downtime that is characteristic of, working within– I’m gonna call it– just the medical industrial complex. Where there’s just so many requirements, so much paperwork, so much back and forth, other people, doctors, and insurance agents giving you permission to get your chair fixed, which is ludicrous.

Asher: It really does sound very ludicrous. Yeah, I can’t believe it takes at least about three months, four months, just to get something as simple as a wheelchair wheel to get like re-pumped or replaced. That’s so strange! I mean, if I think about it; if I bring my car to a repair shop and I’m like, “Oh, hey! My car has a flat tire”, instant change. But, when it comes to a wheelchair, it’s three- four months? What?

West: Yeah, and I’ll just speak to that briefly if you’d let me.

Asher: Oh, yeah! Of course.

听

Why Maintenance Isn’t Covered by Insurance

West: So, most health insurances and the centers for Medicare and Medicaid, don’t cover preventative maintenance. So, like you go to the shop to get your oil changed and your tires rotated, you pay for that out of pocket, but you know that’s standard care for your car, otherwise it’s gonna break down. Well, there is standard care that’s prescribed for your chair, but it’s upon the user. It’s their responsibility to do that. When you buy or you get the chair they give you the manual, or they give you some educational materials, on how you should clean it and all that. But, durable medical equipment distributors, suppliers, aren’t paid, aren’t reimbursed to do that work. So, they have to find other ways to make that pencil. So, it’s not a priority ’cause they can’t charge the end user to do that work. That gap causes chairs to break down more quickly and in the end that is beneficial to those durable medical equipment companies. Because, they make money off of selling new products and billing insurance for a new chair, billing insurance for a new set of push rims, or whatever. Versus doing frequent low-cost maintenance and repairs. That’s one thing and, then the other thing is, over the course of years, the many wheelchair repair shops that used to exist around the country, in the ’60s and ’70s have been, consolidated. So, that maybe there was 25 in The City of Portland and over the decades those have been bought up and consolidated. Now, in The State of Oregon, there’s really two main competitors. It’s “New Mobility” and “National Seating & Mobility”. Those two entities are owned by, “Private Equity”. Private Equity has just a totally different set of criteria to how they run their shops. What we hear is that the ATPs, people that are working on the ground, visiting people, trying to fix their chairs, at times there’s a lot of frustration at that level because their hands are tied. They’re not able to do everything that they want to do because of the corporate structure, of the organization they work within. So, people are feeling it all over, and speaking to a question earlier, that’s some of the larger context for why The Wheelchair Repair Shop is emerging; is that there’s a real need for it and there’s a large systemic breakdown in how we provide service and repair to wheelchair users.

Asher: For sure. It sounds, overall, very complicated in order to just get a wheelchair fixed. It sounds like there’s a lot of moving pieces, as well, in the whole process and such.听

Primary Vs Secondary Harm When Repair Is Slow

Asher: You both mentioned a little bit about what happens when a person has a broken wheelchair and even one of the stories where they had to move into an assistive living and not having that independence; what happens when a wheelchair breaks and repairs aren’t immediately available? Are there options for that person to be able to get another wheelchair, or would they have to go into assistive living, or are there other options for that person who needs to have a wheelchair to move around and to have that independence?

Tyler: Yeah, I can speak on this just a little bit. So, West and I often talk about this in terms of there’s “primary” harm and then there’s “secondary”. So, people have experienced physical harm because of a wheelchair breakdown. People sometimes fall out of their wheelchairs. We had someone come in who; this thing had gotten loose on their foot plate and it was getting jammed in the crack when they were trying to board the MAX. These are things that could have been incredibly serious injuries. So, that’s like the “primary” thing. The “secondary” things are all those downstream effects. West was talking about this person who got a new power chair and, even though it was brand new, the motors still went out and they ended up in this secondary chair. Those are the situations that can cause things like pressure sores, other secondary health effects. Oftentimes, when people do have backup chairs, it’s something that they maybe have purchased on Amazon or at Goodwill. So, they may have a custom fit wheelchair but, if that’s the one that’s broken down, their backup may be like a hospital style chair or like a folding type wheelchair that doesn’t really have advanced seating or it may not be sort of adjusted to their body. There’s a person who emailed me last week, who’s having some shoulder pain from the fact that they’re using their backup chair currently and it’s not fit to them the way that their primary wheelchair is. So, there are some immediate difficult things, but there’s also this whole long list of the ways that it can physically, “secondarily” harm people. But, I think I’ll pass it over to West because there’s also this whole psychological and mental component too of what happens when people are just stuck.

West: Yeah. Thanks, Tyler. That psychological piece; it is devastating. When you had plans to go out with friends, or go to church, or go to school, or whatever it happens to be, and then you’re just stuck, or you need to ask for help in some unconventional ways to get where you need to go. It just takes a toll. I could give you some really funny analogies, basically like, imagine if you were walking around with your pants on backwards or your shirt inside out. It has that kind of effect. Your wheelchair is intricately connected to your health; physical, emotional, mental. So, when it breaks down, you’re broken down. The other thing I wanted to share, if they have no other option, if the durable medical equipment company isn’t able to fix their chair, and they’re not able to rent a chair to the person on a short-term basis, that person will start making phone calls, start searching the internet, “How am I gonna get a new chair?”. They might be looking on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace or they find us, Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, or they’re connected in the spinal cord injury, or disability community, and they start reaching out , and asking for help. So, Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection has employed other people with spinal cord injuries as community health workers, and those community health workers are embedded in the community. They are people obviously with spinal cord injuries. Their work is to connect people, know people, find resources, be educated on these topics. Many times I’ve seen this where the team of community health workers starts asking and looking around for a chair. Some of the community health workers, they love doing this and almost every time we find one. There are chairs out there and people are willing to loan them, but health equity emerges out of community. It doesn’t emerge from institutions. It’s fortunate that we’ve built this network, but I don’t think people should have to rely on that. Health Insurance and the way that we provide wheelchair services and repairs; it’s just broken. People have to go to the internet and Craigslist to find a chair that will help them in a lurch. So, that’s also what happens after a breakdown. People start finding ways to get the help they need and that’s why the Wheelchair Repair Shop exists.

听

Misconceptions About Wheelchair Users

Asher: What misconceptions do people often have about wheelchair users or accessibility needs, in you guys’ opinions?

Tyler: West, I have like a mechanical answer to this. Do you wanna go first with your more direct experience as a wheelchair user?听

West: Sure. I really can just speak to my experience. misconceptions, I’d say, probably the primary one is that, as a wheelchair user, I’m not able to do something simple. I’m just thinking about opening the door and people want to open the door for me. I have come to accept that, but for a long time it bothered me. I’m like, “I can open this door it’s fine. Don’t everyone throw themselves at me so they can get the door open for me.”. There are times where someone does wanna open the door and I’m going under their arm. It’s just weird. It just gets weird. It makes me think about, “why? Why are people doing that?”. I think it’s because there’s this misconception that I can’t open a door, or there are other examples as well; pull a chair out from a table or something. I do appreciate the help and it’s because I’m in a wheelchair. There are other people that maybe can’t do that and they need that help. So, again, I’m speaking to my own experience. The other one that I’ve experienced is an iciness, a chill. Being in a wheelchair, there may be the sense that I’m very different from the person I’m standing next to on the bus or in the elevator or maybe there’s a curiosity about it, but they don’t wanna ask because they don’t think they should, or they wanna know what happened to you. All these weird questions interfere, at times, with the natural interaction. So, I will just take it upon myself to use humor or start the conversation if I want to. But, that’s another thing I think I feel sometimes; is a little bit of distance with random folks, because I’m a wheelchair user. So, not sure if that’s helpful. That’s been some of my experience.

Asher: That’s definitely helpful. Thanks for that, West. What are your thoughts on that, Tyler, from a mechanic perspective?

Tyler: Yeah. I Feel like the biggest misconception that I come across, and I’m speaking as a person who’s frequently fixing wheelchairs, I feel like so many people treat them as this magical object that they can never possibly understand. I think a lot of people really underestimate their mechanical ability, if that makes sense? I see this is also not unique to wheelchairs. This happens a lot with bicycles, with cars, with stuff like that where people are like, ” Oh, I could never figure out how to change a battery in my car.”. I bet you can. I bet with maybe a coworker or friend who can walk you through it you can do it. Anyway, I think one of the biggest sort of misconceptions about wheelchairs is that like working on them is gonna be this really complicated thing. I will admit sometimes it is. There was a power chair I was working on yesterday that was very, very complicated. But, a lot of things aren’t. Changing the tires on a wheelchair; okay, maybe it’s not something that everyone just knows how to do, but with a little bit of training and help they can figure it out. It’s not more difficult than it is to change the tire on a bicycle. Changing the batteries on a power chair is not really more difficult than it is to change the batteries in a car. If you’ve done that or maybe your dad showed you once; these things are not unlearnable, black magic kind of things. Sometimes people approach them that way. So, that’s one of the joys of the workshop and this kind of do it together model is to help people kind of break through that and teach them you actually can understand how this is connected to this and it affects this. Especially with a device that you use every day. People just don’t trust themselves a lot and it’s really fun to get to break through that.

Asher: Yeah, I totally agree with you both. Especially in today’s day and age where we can learn everything from the internet, from YouTube videos and people online, and it’s very helpful. West, I understand people trying to open the door for you, especially if you’re using a wheelchair. Not even that, like if your hands are full . At 抖阴福利导航, where I’m working at right now, the doors are just heavy and super awkward to open in general, so I can’t even imagine having a wheelchair and needing to try to open that. But, the great thing about it, right now, is Universal Design. So, even if your hands are full, or even if you have a wheelchair, or whatever have you, they have accessible buttons that you can press and the doors just automatically open for you. Which gives a great sense of independence to people as well, which I really love.听

Policy Changes in Healthcare Systems & Insurance Processes

Asher: What changes would you like to see in healthcare systems, insurance processes, or public policy related to wheelchair repair, mobility, and equipment? You guys have mentioned just the law that you guys managed to pass last year, which is a awesome win! Are there more wins that you guys are looking forward to in the next coming year, or so?

West: I’ll start. I don’t know if there will be more wins. I don’t know what they are. One thing that I would love to see changed is preventative maintenance to be codified and prescribed and paid for by insurance. That would probably prevent a lot of breakdowns, keep people happier, and allow the durable medical equipment service companies to be able to do those services. I do think what we’re doing now is empowering people and The Right To Repair Legislation, that Tyler spoke about previously, is going to facilitate that too. So I don’t know if it’s just one change. I do think that the work that Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is doing with the wheelchair repair is, over time, going to change the landscape in Oregon and give people more resources and empower people and even create some economic opportunities. So, yeah. That’s one thing that I’m looking forward to.

Asher: Is there anything you’re looking forward to, Tyler, or just echoing West as well?

Tyler: Definitely what West said about preventative maintenance should be a billable category. That would be a huge thing. The other thing that I think about a lot is; this isn’t directly related to repair, but what people call “being on disability”, receiving money from the government, whatever that looks like. ‘Cause there’s different programs, but in almost every program you’re subject to an asset cap. So, you can only have so much in your savings account. The way that it’s related to repair is that ends up affecting people’s ability to do things like buy batteries or pay for services. So, that’s just like a disability in general kind of thing. But, having those asset limits removed or even just updated and increased for the inflation and today’s modern economy. Those numbers don’t get changed all that often, so it’s still incredibly low. So, that would be really cool to see. The other one that I thought of was; we’re not the only place that got Right To Repair Legislation, and specific to wheelchairs. 2026 is so far shaping up to be a big year potentially for Right To Repair Bills nationwide, and many of them include wheelchairs. One of the cool things is that the two kind of biggest groups of people we see advocating for the right to repair stuff is tractor owners and power wheelchair users. So, it’s been really cool to see. A lot of times, these bills are getting started in these states where there’s a lot of agriculture and then people are able to build this coalition of wheelchair users, farmers, and all these people and say, “We’re all gonna work together to get a Right To Repair bill passed and we need to make sure it includes tractors, wheelchairs, cars, iPhones!”. So, that’s just an exciting thing to see. I hope all those bills pass and I’m excited to see the kind of future of those in more and more states.

Asher: Definitely! I look forward to it too! I love these type of conversations, because I learn so much from it and I had no idea that there was such thing as a Right to Repair Bill. I feel like that should be just a universal thing, or already established thing, in general.听

Big Goals For The Repair Shop

Asher: Going back to The Repair Shop, what are the goals for the shop in general over the next few years and are there any new services or programs, events that you guys are excited about?

West: I could take a stab at that and, Tyler, definitely feel free to say more. But, we have some short-term goals that I think we need to work out. By the end of the year, we’d like to add, or add more, volunteer shifts to The Wheelchair Repair Shop. I’d say if you’re listening to this and you’re curious. If you’re mechanically inclined, or you have a background in bike mechanic work; reach out to Tyler and we’ll introduce you to the work. We would love, in the next year or two years, to add a mobile component to this work. Many people that have their chairs broken down transporting to somewhere else; whether it’s driving or public transportation, it’s difficult. So, that mobile unit is helpful. That mobile option is helpful. I think those are the two kind of big goals to demonstrate that this Wheelchair Repair Shop pilot is gonna work. We need to create revenue to pay for our rent, pay for our inventory, and the services. Right now, we’re utilizing volunteers and we have a lot of really good used parts that we have, that are donated. So, we have to demonstrate our kind of business model. Maybe we can chat again in a year or two and we can share how we’ve succeeded. Tyler, do you wanna pick it up from there?

Tyler: Yeah, totally. One of the reasons that we’re really putting our energy into this effort is, because, previously, our workshop was once a month. Now we’re once a week. But, yeah. Just more volunteers to be able to be open twice a week would be incredible. Of course, long-term super big picture, we have 20 staff and everyone has a Sprinter Van and they’re driving all over the state to go fix stuff for a lot of rural people who can’t make it to a place like Portland. So, yeah. We have really big dreams. But, of course, baby steps in getting there. Our first goals are really, prove that this is a way that we can meet this community need and grow to the point where we’ve got enough availability that people don’t have to wait quite so long to come in to get service. We just need volunteers, and to do that, to be able to expand that little bit. So, those are our immediate goals.

How To Support & Donate WCRS

Asher: That’s awesome. I love that! The Wheelchair Repair Mobile. Be able to go around helping people fix their wheelchairs and stuff. That’s a great idea. How can people support your work or get involved in that effort, whether it’s through volunteering or anything else, and if listeners wanna learn more?

West: Yeah, definitely. Hit us up. Come check out our website; “www.wheelchairrepair.org”. Oregon Spinal Cord Injury’s website is; “oregonsci.org”. So, check us out definitely. We’d love your visit to the shop. We’d love a referral if you know somebody that needs preventative maintenance or simple repairs, come to us. You can also schedule an appointment. So, while we don’t have a van Tyler, and there’s another person, that will come to people’s homes and provide service to their chair there in their space. Donations; if you have a third wheelchair that is in good condition, let us know. We will definitely put it to use and get it to somebody who needs it. Donations in dollars; if you wanna become a monthly donor to this work, again, reach out. Those donations would go through the parent organization, Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, and be directed to this work. Honestly, the idea of having a mobile unit is a longer term goal. But, if somebody does have a van, or wants to donate, knows a car dealership that has way too many cars, we would receive a donation and get that program moving in the right direction. So, those are some of the big things that come to mind. Also, I’ll just say one other thing, and Tyler I think I’m stealing your thunder here, but like tools, or pieces like shock vac, air compressor, ladder… there are things that we need, to do the work. So, that would be another way that people could donate or support our work.

Final Takeaways & Wrap Up

Asher: Awesome. Thank you so much, West!听 Finally, last question, if listeners are to remember one thing from this conversation, what would you want it to be? I’ll start with you, Tyler, and then we can end off with West on that.

Tyler: I’m gonna get a little philosophical with this answer, to kinda close out. I think the biggest thing is; I was mentioning how I got pulled into this work, and I kinda joke about it as being “pulled in”, because I didn’t have any connection. But, I hope that everyone out there can find a way where your particular skill set and interests can be helpful to someone. It’s such a cool thing to have these moments of, “Oh, I can help with that,” and then you find out there’s all these people who you can help. I think that it’s been really just such a joy to get to work with everyone and find a place where you get to be useful. It’s a really great feeling. I also know times are tough and not everyone has the capacity to spend a whole bunch of free time volunteering and stuff like that. But, even still, there are still so many ways where people can get plugged in. So, I hope everyone finds that thing, that lights them up. I also secretly hope that it’s repairing wheelchairs and that you’ll come volunteer for us. But, whatever it is, that’s just a really exciting thing to see.

West: And if Tyler was philosophical, I’ll be very practical. “www.wheelchairrepair.org”. Check it out and come visit our shop. We’re excited about this work and we wanna share that with y’all.

Asher: Awesome. Thank you guys so much, West and Tyler. Once again, from the Wheelchair Repair Shop and also from the Oregon Spinal Injury Coalition. Thank you guys so much for the work that you guys do and maybe we’ll hear from you guys in a year to see how it’s going and if you guys got any more wins for the Spinal Cord Injury and Disability community. Appreciate you guys so much. Thank you so much for interviewing with us!

West: Thanks, Asher!

Tyler: Yeah, thanks for inviting us on. This has been really fun!

Outro

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our ,听our Spotify channel, on , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

Show Intro and Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Zoe: Hi, everyone. I’m your host Zoe, and welcome to our latest episode of A Slice of Life. As always, with me is our lovely guide dog, Tucker, and joining us later will be Kuma to help us prepare the meal and one of our guest hosts, Patricia. But, right here with me now I have our first guest host, Ray.听

Ray: Well, I’m Ray. What can I say?听

Zoe: Ray and I met when I used to work at Costco, as a sales associate, back in 2020… Ooh, was it ‘4, I think it was? Yeah, 2024, right?听

Ray: Well, it was two- three years ago?

Zoe: Yeah, it was like the end of 2023-ish. So, I would say between two and a half to three years now. So, that’s been a while. And, Ray’s been a role model and inspiration for me, and it’s been really great getting to know Ray all these years. So, yeah. I suppose for our first question; what are we making today?

Today’s Recipe

Ray: Well, we’re making a family pie called a “Lemon Dream Pie” with Meringue topping.听

Zoe: Oh my, that sounds fabulous! And, I’m gonna be totally honest here; I am awful at baking. I don’t know what it is. I always try to measure as perfectly as possible. Not too high, not too low, the right measuring cups, get the right temperatures. But for me, I don’t know what it is. I just can’t seem to make it work. But I imagine that this pie, even though it might sound daunting to those that aren’t too familiar with baking, is this a… would this be a simple pie to make? ‘Cause it sounds really fancy.听

Ray: Well, it’s simple. I don’t know how to say it without going into details, but we’ll go into that later-听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah…听

Ray: With Kuma?听

Zoe: With Kuma and Patricia as well.听

Ray: But, it’s sweet. It’s simple. Make it ahead of time for parties and if you make a mistake, you always have time to make another one.听

Zoe: That is true, yeah! Not to make you viewers jealous, but I sneaked a little bit of the pie when Ray made it last time. That topping was so light and fluffy, and it was like… What would you call it? A Meringue?听

Ray: Yeah, Meringue.听

Zoe: Oh, gosh! That sounds so fabulous!听

Ray: Now, meringue’s easy, but hard. Because, you have to start it and add sugars gradually, but we’ll get into that later.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. We’ll get into that later. That pie sounds absolutely amazing. So, let’s get to know you a little bit, Ray.

Ray: I was a 1 pound 12 ounce baby, three months early.听

Zoe: Oh my.

Ray: So that’s how I got my vision problems, because the incubator and the pressure. But I lived a good life so far. Except for diabetes. That kinda sucks, but… Been married for 29 years.听

Zoe: Oh, my. Coming on the 30th.听

Ray: Yeah. Just had it April. April was good. Me and my Patricia, as you’ll meet later, we’ve been a good pair. Each helping each other, ups and downs with life, but we’re still not gonna give it up.听

Zoe: Truly. It’s has truly been an inspiration to know you. Could you describe real quick; because you mentioned that you are a diabetic, and also what’s your level of vision loss?

Ray: Well, my vision loss was because of the incubator, glaucoma and cataract and stuff, I lost one eye, but it hasn’t stopped me from riding motorcycles, horses And jumping over in the jetty at Tillamook and stuff like that. I was less restricted when I was younger. Now that I’m older with diabetes, I’m more restricted to vision and stuff听

Zoe: Gotcha.听

Ray: And that sucks, but people get old too and then they die.听

Zoe: I mean, it is true. It’s a part of life but, at the same time, it’s about enjoying and maximizing the ride that you’re on, right?

Ray: Yeah.听

Zoe: And, knowing all the things that you… I didn’t know that you rode horses.听

Ray: Yeah, I had two horses. I had a Welsh when I was 18, 16, 15.听

Zoe: Oh, wow.听

Ray: “Welsh”, and then a painted pony. I rode bareback in the pasture. One time I rode bareback and the horse started running back towards the barn. And it wasn’t a barn, it was kind of a shed. So, I flipped underneath the horse while it was galloping or running.听

Zoe: Oh!

Ray: And then I thought, “Well, it’s running. I can’t get back up.”. I’m between two front of the front hoofs. So, I was around his neck.

Zoe: Oh, gosh.听

Ray: Underneath the hoofs while the horse was running. And I just said, “Well, do or die. Okay, I’m gonna land here since it’s soft.”. So, I let go, got up, and no damage.

Zoe: Oh, thank goodness…听

Ray: My other friend that was with me was, totally scared and, “Did you get hurt?” and stuff and… No, that’s my life story. I’m lucky. No hurt. No, no problem. Yeah, that was fun.听

Zoe: Fun, true. Scary for sure. Even just to listen makes my blood pump a little bit. But, that’s a really amazing story to hear that, like, you know, you went through-听

Ray: But, I’ve learned that because of my glaucoma and my retina partially detached, riding, I could ride. I can’t gallop. I couldn’t trot, but I could ride. Because of the jarring of the horse.听

Zoe: Oh. Oh, okay, okay.听

Ray: And that’s one thing with people with partial detached retina. Part of it was detached with one- “hair” kinda thing.听

Zoe: I know what you mean. Yeah.听

Ray: So, it was very loose and any jarring, or fighting… no trampolines. I found out when I was in elementary school.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.听

Ray: I couldn’t trampoline either.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Ray: I still did it. I did a lot of things, but…听

Zoe: Hey, we’re kids! When you’re a kid, you gotta; “The world is so big. We gotta do what we can. We gotta live!”.听

Ray: Yeah, it’s definitely lived more than any other person with my situation. Drove motorcycles on 101.听

Zoe: Oh, wow听

Ray: At the beach, Rockaway. I drove pickup trucks in the mountains, behind the beach house, and logging roads.

Zoe: Oh, wow.听

Ray: 200 cliff one side, a three-foot ditch on the other side. Luckily there was no logging roads, and they weren’t used much. But, that’s how I learned how to drive and stuff.听

Zoe: That’s quite fabulous indeed. Yeah.听

Ray: More than most people, but I was younger and adventuresome. One thing my dad did, we had motorcycles we’d drive on them log road. There was a six-foot board. We’d go over– My dad would drive over the board on a little 90 CC and would drive over the little river; little stream. No problem! But, he couldn’t drive in the logging roads without falling over and hurting his hand and my motorcycle.

Zoe: Oh, no. Really?听

Ray: He was showing off, but he was way down there. He lost control. But, I tried to do this three-foot board, and I got scared. I couldn’t do it.听

Zoe: Yeah, it, it is hard. Overcoming that first leap, it’s ” Oh, my gosh.”听

Ray: Well, no, it’s not a, it’s just a little creek, but still you have to have confidence, and I didn’t have the confidence.

Zoe: True. But, at the same time, it’s a three-foot board and you’re riding a full-on motorcycle over it.听

Ray: Yeah. But I did it kind of, but scared the crap out of me.听

Zoe: Still.听

Ray: Yeah, so I was lucky. I mean, things like that are… We had a good time when I was younger.听

Zoe: That does sound fabulous.听

Ray: And horseback riding on the beaches are one thing I remember.听

Zoe: Oh, gosh, that sounds amazing. Well, lucky, I suppose that’s how a lot of my creations go. I leave it all up to Lady Luck, and I’m like, “You know what? I’ll roll the dice.”. If I’m feeling really basic and I just pull two random cans of soup out, I’ll combine these.”. Sometimes it goes together really well a beef and vegetable soup and some sort of tomato-based or vegetable-based soup. Other times you get chicken sausage gumbo combined with New England clam chowder.听

Ray: Yeah.听

Zoe: Kuma has never let me hear the end of when I combined those two.

Ray: That’s a combination that I think… You needed rice to go with it or something.听

Zoe: Oh, it was horrible. I ate it anyways, ’cause I was hungry, but when you roll the dice and don’t identify what you’re pulling out of the cabinet and to try and mix together; it becomes a little bit more-听

Ray: Did you have Tucker then, too?

Zoe: Oh, I had Tucker! Trust me. I don’t think he would’ve eaten-听

Ray: Did he eat it?听

Zoe: No, I didn’t wanna give it to him. Didn’t know if there toxic ingredients were there.听

Ray: You know, if the dog don’t eat it; you know it’s bad.听

Zoe: I was pretty sure he wouldn’t eat it. It was bad. ‘Cause the gumbo was kinda watery and then the chowder was all thick. So, I combined it with a spoon. But, didn’t want to combine. That’s what the vibe was and it was horrible.听

Ray: Well, if it filled up your tummy.

Zoe: That is true and, at the end of the day, that’s how I think of some foods. I always tell Kuma, “You want some pizza?”, and they’ll be like, “Sure.”. And, I’ll be, “Okay, here’s some bread, tomato, cheese. Have fun!”.听

Ray: Now if you do that with a- What do you call it? “Baguette”?听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Ray: Do that with a baguette. Tomato sauce, cheese, and a baguette, and then some meat or something like that. That makes an easier pizza to make than just a slice bread.听

Zoe: You know what? And you all, podcast listeners, know as well, I’m gonna see if I can surprise Kuma and see what they think about it. ‘Cause, that actually sounds amazing to do.

Ray: And it’s really simple. But, it’s good for one to two people. Just take a French Baguette. Cut it lengthways. And, then put the tomato sauce on it. The Parmesan cheese, three cheeses, whatever you prefer.听

Zoe: Parmesan, feta, and mozzarella sounds good.听

Ray: Yeah. That’s really good. And then put pepperoni or salami… sausage is a good combination. If you like vegetables-听

Zoe: Yeah, vegetables, cheese-听

Ray: onions-

Zoe: Whatever you want, really.听

Ray: … grilled, grilled onions.听

Zoe: Ooh, mushrooms.听

Ray: Mushrooms, peppers, green peppers, and stuff like that would be a real simple “pizza thing” that you could just make up real quick.

Zoe: Yeah, that sounds like a homemade “Bagel Bite”, but with a baguette instead of one of those little bagels. I’m always telling Kuma; “it combines in the stomach at the end of the day”. It’s basically as if you ate a pizza.

Ray: Yeah. It is easier to eat and less messy.听

Zoe: They’re always very exasperated with me. So, I’ll let y’all listeners know what they think of it when I surprise them with it. But, hey! Little recipe for you all. What a treat.听

Ray: Salt and pepper. A little bit of…听

Zoe: garlic, Basil?

Ray: Garlic or Parmesan. Yeah. Flakes of Parmesan or it’s all shredded stuff, so slice stuff.听

Zoe: They’re all gonna melted down. That’s why the feta, mozzarella, and Parmesan sound really good. Even just that by itself, plus a little marinara, but not- it’s like tomato paste.

Ray: You could do… Marinara is really good. You could do marinara, for sure, too. Either one. But, you’ll want it thicker. A little thicker.听

Zoe: Gotcha. Oh, gosh, look at us! A podcast about food, learning to live life and enjoy it, and treat disabilities not as a hindrance.

Ray: Don’t hold back. Do what you can do. Do what you feel comfortable with and grow from there. If you can’t do it, you can’t do it. Do it a way that you can do it with help or with, assistance I know people that’s blind and they ride bikes, They do these bike rides Might be tandem bikes. And then they can ride that way. They might not steer it. Just have a person that can steer the bike, and they ride it behind, and it’s still freedom. That was a thing for me is, when I ride in motorcycles, the freedom of the wind in your hair and the bugs in your teeth and-听

Zoe: Oh, my!听

Ray: Just having that kind of freedom that you don’t get, because you’re so restricted of what you can do. So, go boating, or go canoeing, or kayaking, or something like that. Or, what’s that one that they do- team?听

Zoe: Rafting?听

Ray: No, what’s the one that they do?听

Zoe: “Dragon Boating”!听

Ray: Dragon Boating!听

Zoe: Yeah, Dragon Boats!听

Ray: Dragon boating. If you can’t see and can’t do anything, do dragon boats and do it with a team member. IRA group that did dragon boating and stuff on the Willamette; do that. That’s really fun with bunch of people, bunch of blind people, or whatever. Bunch of friends. They become friends.听

Zoe: Aren’t they still doing that?听

Ray: Yeah.听

Zoe: Isn’t that team- What was it? Lethally Blind?听

Ray: There’s a pink one for, cancer people that they all wear pink, and they’re cancer-听

Zoe: Oh

Ray: survivors.听

Zoe: How wonderful.听

Ray: There’s seven or eight, Dragon boats. They’re just different teams and different groups that do different things and have something in common.听

Zoe: Gosh. And last time I actually went to just to a few of the practices. But, it was so great to meet everyone. And you really meet people from all sorts of walks of life.听

Ray: Yeah.听

Zoe: And all sorts of different backgrounds. Back then I was- I think I was only 18. But, yeah. I could meet people as young as me, but there was also there was a lady who was I think 80 at the time, and she was still on the dragon boat team.

Ray: Really? Yeah.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.听

Ray: Age old, as long as you do exercise and don’t sit around and on the couch and watching TV and be ate, eat potatoes and-听

Zoe: Oh, granted. She was one of the most energetic and positive people I know, and she’s helped so many people. So, yeah. She’s just awesome.听

Ray: Stay young and healthy and do something with your brain. Or read. I hate reading.听

Zoe: Oh no, you hate reading?听

Ray: Yeah.听

Zoe: Oh, well. I guess if it’s difficult to read, yeah. But, I don’t know. I read just on my phone or on the computer now. But, there are some really great books. A lot of people around me and myself too have been getting into that Dungeon Crawler Carl series. You’ve been laying down some really great thoughts and philosophies on me. Can you give me just an idea of one big event that kind of describes how you feel about your culinary experience through life, learning how to cook, and, how it’s affected your life? For me, I might say that the way that I would describe my own journey is when I first started learning how to cook when I was doing those Rice-A-Ronis.听

Ray: Yeah.听

Zoe: And I was, “Oh, I can just do these in the rice cooker.”. In goes my ingredients, my water, and all my milk and butter. And so by doing that, the milk went everywhere. I destroyed that rice cooker. But, luckily, my roommates are super awesome. So, yeah. I destroyed the rice cooker. I proceeded to destroy the next rice cooker as well. But, our current rice cooker works very well. That’s kinda how I would describe my story is silly, crazy mistakes. But, I do my best. I always try. I learn from them, and I correct them to make the best possible Rice-A-Roni dish that you can make.

Ray: Yeah. One of my people says, “You made the best meatball, slow cooker recipe.” And I said, “What did you put in your recipe?” barbecue sauce and bought, all pre-made, meatballs, and they think it’s the best thing they ever tasted.听

Zoe: Sometimes it’s the simple things, and that’s what that’s one of the goals of this podcast as well, is focusing on the student experience, but also focusing on ama- making amazing, delicious meals from some of the simplest ingredients.听

Ray: Yeah…听

Zoe: ‘Cause you don’t have to break the bank. You don’t have to go and buy a gold-plated steak that you, butter-boiled, gold-plated steak, I think it is?

Ray: I would say, yeah. Chinese or Japanese steaks. Ra- ragu?听

Zoe: “Wagyu”, yeah.听

Ray: “Wagyu”.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Ray: Oh, my God! Those things, steaks, are just to die for!

Zoe: You know what? Those cows… Now, sorry to all you, vegetarians or, non-meat eaters out there, but purely for factual reasons I’m telling this. But yeah, those, Wagyu cows are so- are treated so well. I won’t claim to be an expert on them by any means, but, I did some reading into them and watched a few TV shows about them and it is really fascinating, just the entire industry, how well they treat those cows. Those cows a lot of them have their own “masseuses”? Massage people?听

Ray: “Massage”, yeah, which is-听

Zoe: Yeah! And, they’re very controlled special diet that they feed them, and then the meat that you get from them… Marbled with white and whatnot?听

Ray: Yeah.听

Zoe: That’s your steaks.听

Ray: Okay.听

Zoe: The meat that you get from these cows is pink, because there’s no visible lines of fat. That fat is so perfectly marbled with the meat that it gives you the most flavorful, tender, juicy bite ever. Oh, it’s divine!听

Ray: I don’t have those very often.

Zoe: The really good stuff is like $2,000 for, a pound. So, I won’t be having that anytime often either. But, if you can get-

Ray: Well, there’s a store that might sell them-

Zoe: Yeah, there are some other cuts of wagyu that go much less. So, for a pretty special event; a couple hundred dollars for a wagyu steak sounds good.听

Ray: Well, there’s a new Oriental Store, that’s near me on Mall 205, “99 Ranch”.听

Zoe: Yeah.

Ray: They have fish there. Did you see it?听

Zoe: I saw them and I saw they have these things called “sashimi”, and those are really… It’s a Chinese sort of- It’s hard to describe. It’s a rice crispy, but with these “big noodle flower” thi- I don’t even know how to describe it. It’s really good. But, yeah. That sounds great. Culinary experience or culinary story, do you have one for us that could describe or give off the vibe of what you make?听

Ray: It’s wonderful when you get old that you forget all those things. You don’t remember them.听

Zoe: Oh, I’m sorry to hear that.听

Ray: But, no. Then you go to the store, “Do you have any great stories?”. “No, I’m too senile.”听

Zoe: This was maybe around the fall of last year. And, this friend of ours, her partner at the time, was out with some sort of pain. And, he wasn’t able to run his food place. She’s super awesome, this friend of-听

Ray: She’ll give you the shirt off her back.

Zoe: Yeah, and she’s so generous so kind. I’m sure she has lots of contacts.听

Ray: He was out for a week.听

Zoe: Yeah?

Ray: Is that right? About a week or so?听

Zoe: It was about a week. But-听

Ray: So, it would really been a loss of money and loss of revenue if he was gone that long.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. And who does she call to help? She called you.听

Ray: And you.听

Zoe: Oh, no, no!

Ray: You helped in other ways in other times.

Zoe: I helped in other ways in other times, yeah. But, at that point in that week, I actually didn’t work, I don’t think…听

Ray: Yeah. No, not that week. It was-听

Zoe: But, running that restaurant and, of all the people that she knew, blind, sighted, she called you, which was just a demonstration from her of how much she respected you and your skills. So, it’s just really cool to see and it’s really inspiring. It’s something that I definitely aspire to as well.听

Ray: It does inspire. But, I would do anything for her. Because, she just seems like she bends over backwards for everybody, all her people that she works with. But I wouldn’t do anything for him.听

Zoe: I gotcha. Yeah…听

Ray: That’s life, and I’m glad to help. I would’ve done it for nothing.听

Zoe: Truly, but-听

Ray: Yeah. I would’ve did it just pure…听

Zoe: This podcast so far, our first few episodes, I focused on Bulgogi Beef. It’s not exactly, ’cause there’s no gochujang in the recipe. But, yeah, to be clear, that first episode’s recipe is not bulgogi beef, but it is inspired by the flavor. You can add gochujang, or other ingredients. Dress it up to your style. But, there’s been, a Mediterranean one pot dish, ham hock and bean stew with well soup with buttermilk biscuits, savory dishes.

Ray: These are like main dishes.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, like main dishes. A goal of this podcast is to not only focus on cooking, how the culinary experience inspires, but also to find these simple, amazing recipes that are delicious, that you can make at home, that are inspired really and that people can make their own. This pie, from what you’ve described to me and from what you said already here on this podcast, it does sound simple. But, so delicious, frozen or chilled, it would make an amazing pie in the summer is what I’m imagining. But, we’ll be focusing- We’ll be, getting into the baking segment later, but to round out this sort of segment, are there any other words of wisdom or any stories or just, anything about your culinary experience or background that you’d like to share?

Ray: Well, I had a lot of– five years of culinary, but I did– my culinary is dishwashing. But, then I always paid attention and that’s the one thing, try to pay attention what’s around you and learn from that. You can learn a lot if you just pay attention and ask a few questions.

Zoe: Yeah, I know one or two YouTube Chefs who have that pretty much exact same story about where they start; lowly beginnings with dishwasher. But, they pay attention. They learn where they can. They want to learn. It’s kind of like that “Ratatouille” story.

Ray: Oh, we can’t sell Ratatouille anymore.

Zoe: Oh, really?听

Ray: They outlawed it.听

Zoe: Wait, what?!听

Ray: The City of Portland outlawed Ratatouille. Now they can’t sell it at restaurants.听

Zoe: Since when?听

Ray: Just recently.听

Zoe: Wait, why though?听

Ray: I don’t know exactly. It’s just really weird. They don’t want restaurants selling that anymore.听

Zoe: That’s really unfortunate.

Ray: Well, you know what Ratatouille is?

Zoe: Oh, I know who Ratatouille is. Yeah, it’s that French, vegetable dish that has that tomato base and all those sorts of vegetables. I really enjoyed the way that they did it in Ratatouille ’cause I’m no culinary expert, but it seemed like he presented his dish in a way kinda differently than how you would expect with the slices. Sort of arranged, if you imagine, a deck of cards. But, you, kinda grip it with your middle finger and your thumb and then tap your finger on the side and then just roll your finger across the table. It was a really interesting slice arrangement and a really interesting arrangement with the sauce, with the garnish. It looked beautiful. It inspired me to try my own Ratatouille and it tasted good. But, I think I just need more practice.听

Ray: That helps too. They do a lot of practicing, a lot of things.

Zoe: Truly. So, would there be any other stories or any other experience or words of wisdom that you’d like to share before we get into our baking segment?听

Ray: Keep practicing. Some people take it 200 times before they get the recipe right, but they don’t give up and that’s the secret; learn from your mistakes and keep plugging away.

Zoe: That’s really profound.听

Ray: Because, if practice makes perfect, and that’s so true with a lot of things, don’t give up with anything you do. If it’s goal of kitchen, or activities, or friends.听

Zoe: Five years as a dishwasher and as a diabetic and with the vision impairment as well. That’s a lot of dedication and especially with the food restrictions being a diabetic. For me, I’m allergic to eggs, and you have observed me crack eggs. Please describe to the, our listeners how good I am at cracking eggs.听

Ray: Well, first we put gloves on you. So, you wouldn’t have that contamination of-

Zoe: Yeah, ’cause I’m allergic, yeah.听

Ray: You’re allergic. And then we put a nice little white apron, and it still came out clean. But, sometimes there was two ways to do it, one on the edge of the bowl or one on the table, and maybe you should switch to the tables and tap on it, and then flip it, and then crack it.听

Zoe: That is true.

Ray: But, then sometimes you just don’t know your own strength.听

Zoe: Yeah, I crushed my second egg. I crushed it while trying to break it.听

Ray: So, there’s a happy medium between crack it enough or the edge and not too much power.听

Zoe: Yeah. But, hey. Practice makes perfect.听

Ray: But, I’m not letting you go through two cartons of eggs though. You’re not learning from that point.听

Zoe: Yeah, no. I gotcha. But, it’s really interesting. ‘Cause, it’s really cool to look at all these restrictions and the way that people, attempt things, learn from them, and make their changes to the recipe as well. Part of this recipe is, instead of using regular sugar. This recipe, that you have, calls for six tablespoons of a monk fruit substitute sugar.听

Ray: Yeah, it’s good for diabetics and it came from a dietician from Providence, a seminar that I went to.听

Zoe: Yeah, so that would eliminate so much sugar.

Ray: Not so much sugar, but the artificial stuff, your body can’t break artificial sugars down. It can’t break it down. Then if you read in the ingredients, it’s artificial sugar.

Zoe: Yeah.听

Ray: So, they get rid of it, but it’s still not good for you. But, that’s another story to the…听

Zoe: True, yeah. But, it’s about making healthy decisions.听

Ray: But, this monk fruit is really good and it’s sugar, but it’s made… I don’t know how it’s made, actually. That’s a good question we should’ve of asked our listeners.

Zoe: Yeah. We’ll definitely get that information, but yeah. I just didn’t even know that was a thing, so it was really cool to hear about that, and it was a really cool edit. ‘Cause, for a lot of people that are like, “how do diabetics enjoy like sweets or pies or whatnot without using all that artificial stuff?”.

Ray: Well, that’s what seems like it’s going towards, the pops are going that way. I can drink more pop; as a “diet pop” than a “regular pop”. But, that’s not true. Because it still adds up. But, it just don’t add up in the same way. People think they can drink more pop or drink diabetic sugars, and diabetic stuff and not be affected. But, they still get affected in a different way.

Zoe: Yeah. I’m really, really excited for this recipe and I just can’t wait to get into this segment. Again, thanks so much for sharing these words of wisdom, these experiences, these stories. I’m sure listeners are going to find this recipe absolutely amazing, and I hope-

Ray: I had a friend doing it.

Zoe: Yeah, and I hope this episode gives comfort to you viewers. It’s something that you can listen to while sipping some hot cocoa by the fireplace. So, with that, I’ll see you in the next segment. Bye.听

Ray: Bye. Nice talking.听

Zoe: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to A Slice of Life. We’re here in the kitchen now, and I’m with Kuma. Unfortunately, our guest hosts Ray and Patricia, weren’t able to make it onto the show today. But instead, we’ll be making you the recipe ourselves with a little added twist from an idea that Kuma had.听

Kuma: Hi, everybody. Happy Sunday that we’re recording.听

Zoe: I think it’s Father’s Day, actually.听

Kuma: Yeah.

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: Happy Sunday, everyone.听

Zoe: Happy Sunday.

Kuma: So, we are making something from Ray and Patricia. It’s called a Lemon Icebox Pie. So, it’s a Lemon Meringue Pie, everyone, with some really nice added supplemental options, I would say. Ray uses monk fruit sugar, which he says he’s diabetic, and it’s a very good sugar to use. It’s safe for diabetics.听

Zoe: That’s right, yeah. Monk fruit sugar is what he used. You at home, if you’re diabetic, you can always choose the best option for you. Monk fruit sugar was something I didn’t even know about. We don’t have that today, so we’re using regular sugar But, at home, definitely feel free to replace it with monk fruit sugar if you like.听

Kuma: So, the ingredients from Ray is one pre-made pie crust. It is suggested using a graham cracker or vanilla wafer pie crust. So, it’s gonna be crumbly.听

Zoe: Yeah. You can pick those up easy at WinCo, Fred Meyer- pretty much any grocery store for just a couple bucks. It’s not too bad.听

Kuma: Three eggs that are room temperature.听

Zoe: So, make sure to let them thaw for about an hour after you take them out of the fridge before you make the pie.听

Kuma: Yep. One can of sweetened condensed milk. So, that’s about 14 ounces.

Zoe: You know one of my favorite old desserts, Kuma? It was just literally cold strawberries with condensed milk on top. 14 ounces in this pie, huh? That sounds like it’s gonna be a nice creamy pie.听

Kuma: A third cup of lemon juice. That can be freshly squeezed, which is what Zoe and I are gonna try and go with today.

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: Or that bulk lemon juice that you can buy at the grocery store.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: Usually they have it with just the fresh produce, I believe.听

Zoe: Yeah, it’s fresh lemon juice that we’re using today. But, the lemon juice in the bottle, totally fine. That works out well. You can get those smaller bottles, but for this recipe, you probably wanna get one of those big Costco bottles that are a quart or something and it’s wonderful. ‘Cause, lemon juice goes in so many amazing recipes.听

Kuma: And then we’re gonna have that six tablespoons of sugar or sugar supplement.听

Zoe: Yep.听

Kuma: And what I’m doing today is I’m using a pre-made pie crust. I melted some butter so I can bake the pie dough itself for a few minutes beforehand. Because, when I add in the lemon pie filling, that pie mix should already be, or the pie dough should already be halfway cooked-听

Zoe: Yeah.

Kuma: So, it doesn’t just congeal together.听

Zoe: You know what? I never even thought about that. Now, for those at home, I am not good at baking. The only things I can really bake are Frozen pizza. Yeah, but I never even thought about how the bottom of a pie… ‘Cause I’ve tried making pot pies before, and whatnot. When you put that raw dough in the oven with the insides, the bottom can get crispy, but a lot of times all the insides congeal together. So, I didn’t realize that. You just brush the bottom with just a little bit of butter and then halfway cook it in the oven?听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: Perfect.听

Kuma: So, I’ll read the full recipe with all the steps. That way everyone knows it.听

Zoe: Yeah. Starting from the top.听

Kuma: And then we’ll go into my deviations. What were you saying earlier about exploring while cooking, Zoe?听

Zoe: Oh, it’s good. It’s really good. That’s the spirit of what this podcast is. It’s great to explore, and it’s all about learning and walking through your own journey in life. This podcast we’re here to talk about it. We’re here to provide comfort, show the foibles of everyday mistakes. ‘Cause, there will be mistakes. But, that’s how you learn. And, ultimately, this is about trying new things, finding the things that work for you, and doing the things that really put a smile on your face when you know that it’s worked out. I made a curry the other night, and Kuma and I thought it was 75% of the way there. It was good but not amazing. And, really we came to the conclusion that it was only lacking, realistically, only one thing- two things; fresh chili peppers, and also a spoonful of peanut butter to bind it all together and to provide a little bit more of that nutty flavor in the background. So, it’s the things that you do when you experiment, when you test things out. You find the things that you enjoy the most.听

Kuma: Yeah. And you find fun combinations.听

Zoe: Absolutely.听

Kuma: So, from Ray, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna take those three eggs, right? The room temperature eggs. And you need two bowls. You’re gonna crack each egg individually and separate out the yolk, so that yellow part from the egg white, so that clear part. If you crack an egg yolk, so it’s runny, just get a new egg.听

Zoe: Yeah, don’t feel bad about wasting eggs. I’ll be totally honest with you, I’m allergic to eggs, so I never really work with them. So, when I tried cracking eggs, I really tried to practice. But, after cracking like, what was it? Two cartons, I only got two eggs to actually separate.听

Kuma: It takes time. It’s okay.听

Zoe: It takes time and practice, but if you break an egg, don’t worry. Just take that egg save it, put it away. You can use it for something else, or you can make it into a scramble. Very easy.

Kuma: Okay. So, we’ve separated out those three eggs. We’re gonna take those three egg yolks, and with a mixer we’re gonna beat it so it’s all nice and mixed up. Then we’re gonna add the can of condensed milk, so that 14 ounces of sweetened condensed milk- Ooh to the yolks, and we’re gonna mix again. During that process, we’re slowly gonna add a third cup of lemon juice to that yolk and sweetened condensed milk mixture. Once we’re done with that, we’re gonna turn to the actual pie dough itself. Okay?听

Zoe: Now, that’s a simple filling. Will it taste really lemony in the center?听

Kuma: That’s what we’re hoping.听

Zoe: Oh, okay.听

Kuma: So with the pie crust, what we’re gonna do is brush a little bit of butter on your pie pan Just hold on to that. So, just hold on to that听

Zoe: It’s fine.听

Kuma: Yeah, you can just leave it right here. You’re gonna melt some butter, and you’re gonna brush it onto the pie pan itself, like on the inside. And then you’re slowly gonna roll out the pie dough to cover the pie tin, okay?听

Zoe: Okay. And that’s to protect the bottom, right? Make sure it doesn’t burn or stick.听

Kuma: And if this is a raw, normal pie dough, take a fork and poke some holes into the bottom of it, okay?听

Zoe: Oh, okay.听

Kuma: And then bake it for five to 10 minutes.听

Zoe: That makes sense. Let anything underneath escape, otherwise it’ll make the bottom, like, bubble up and look weird. That makes sense.听

Kuma: So, once we’re done with that, and we’ve taken our pie dough out of the oven, and we’re letting it cool. We’re gonna pour the yolk mixture into the pie pan.听

Zoe: Ooh.听

Kuma: Yep. Then clean that bowl. Clean the mixing bowl.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.听

Kuma: Pour in the egg whites, and we’re gonna beat the egg whites until it turns very light and fluffy, and that can take a while.

Zoe: Yeah. They call them “stiff peaks”.听

Kuma: Yep. That can take up to 10 minutes, I believe.听

Zoe: You don’t wanna overbeat them, though.听

Kuma: Nope.听

Zoe: But, once they start to turn into those nice stiff and looking a bit white, and they keep their shape, then you know that you’re on the cusp of having them done.

Kuma: Then you’re gonna add the six tablespoons of sugar to the egg whites while it’s beating.听

Zoe: Mm.听

Kuma: Okay? And, then once that is ready, then you pour the egg whites– it’s called a meringue– on top of the pie itself.听

Zoe: Now, that sounds simple, but so delicious.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm. And, then you’ll bake for seven minutes at 350 degrees or until the topping, that meringue, is lightly browned.

Zoe: Okay. You don’t wanna burn that.听

Kuma: And, then once it’s complete, let it sit at room temperature and then chill it in the fridge or the freezer.听

Zoe: Yeah. And then, whenever you’re ready to serve it, you can just take it out of the freezer, thaw it in the fridge, you can take it out, slice into it. You don’t need any whipped cream. That meringue topping is already so light, and fluffy, and sweet. It’s gonna be perfect. Now, that sounds like a simple but really easy amazing pie that you can whip together in half an hour or so, and then just put that in the freezer. Have that ready for a little party. You were telling me that you made some deviations from the recipe; trying your own thing a little bit. What were you wanting to do?听

Kuma: I wanna add mint. So, I’m feeling more of a mint julep.听

Zoe: Ooh!听

Kuma: Like a lemon mint julep pie.听

Zoe: That sounds really good! Lemon and mint do actually go so well together.听

Kuma: Yeah.听

Zoe: And, you’re using fresh mint leaves, right?听

Kuma: Yep!听

Zoe: Yeah. I’m trying to think of something that I would do. I don’t know, probably use some sort of mint extract. But, fresh mint just seems like it would work a lot better.

Kuma: You just want fresh mint. Okay. So what I’ve done already is I’ve melted the butter.听

Zoe: Ooh, okay.听

Kuma: I’ve let the pie dough, itself, become room temperature. So, it’s easier to roll out. I have preheated the oven to 350 degrees.听

Zoe: Lovely!

Kuma: I have my pie tin. So, I’m gonna brush the bottom of the pie tin with butter.听

Zoe: Yeah, just a little brush.听

Kuma: A little melted butter and if you don’t have a silicon rubber brush, or even a painting- like an unused painting brush, right?听

Zoe: As long as you’re gentle.听

Kuma: You can actually also use paper towels and just pour the butter in and then use a paper towel and swipe it around the pie pan itself.听

Zoe: As long as you keep it clean.

Kuma: But, if you’re gonna use a painting brush that you just get from the arts and crafts store, it needs to be a new one that has never touched paint.听

Zoe: Yeah. You keep your food and your art separate.听

Kuma: I am saying this for you, Zoe.听

Zoe: What? Why would I do that?听

Kuma: You never know.听

Zoe: You know what? That’s fair…

Kuma: I am teaching a blind woman how to bake currently!听

Zoe: That is true. So, like- No, I would never do that!听

Kuma: Are you sure?听

Zoe: I think so. You know what? I’ve been wrong before. I’ll trust you!听

Kuma: And you don’t need a whole lot of melted butter either.听

Zoe: It’s just to protect that pie dough, and you’re not trying to “flavor” the pie dough heavily, or anything. Just get that nice crisp outside without burning it or having it stick to the pan.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: ‘Cause no one wants a slice of pie and all of a sudden you can’t lift the bottom out of the pan.

Kuma: So, I’ve pulled out my pie dough. I’m unfolding it, cause it’s in a-

Zoe: It’s in a roll, right?听

Kuma: Yeah. Yeah,听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: Thank you. And, I thought it was room temperature enough. It wasn’t, but that’s okay.听

Zoe: Yeah. We’ll work through it.听

Kuma: It’s just these little tiny pieces at the inside.听

Zoe: Mm-hmm.听

Kuma: And I’m slowly setting it down

Zoe: And if you’ve decided to use like a graham cracker crust from the store-听

Kuma: You don’t have to do any of this…听

Zoe: Yeah, you don’t have to do any of this. But, we figured for the lemon mint, sort of center, it would just hold better like, compliment it better. But, a graham cracker like crumbly crust you can skip this step and then move to the part we brush the bottom with butter and then add in the yolks, the yolk mixture. You don’t have to like pre-bake the graham cracker crust.

Kuma: So, I’ve added the pie dough to it-听

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: And, I’m just poking some holes in the bottom of the dough. So, try and give it an even cook.听

Zoe: Mm-hmm听

Kuma: Okay. So that’s done. I’m gonna put it in the oven for 10 minutes– 5 to 10 minutes… Okay! Now let’s go over to our eggs!听

Zoe: All right! Let’s get this party started!听

Kuma: Our “eggy-weggies”!听

Zoe: And you can always do this by hand with a good whisk too; if you don’t have a mixer at home. But, it’ll just take a little longer.听

Kuma: So, what I have in front of me is some fresh mint, maybe about a teaspoon or two of fresh mint, minced.听

Zoe: Ooh. Minced.

Kuma: I got three big lemons. What I do with lemons or any citrus, when I need to use them for juice, is I roll them against the counter to knead it to, kinda, be a little bit more pliable.听

Zoe: Yeah, you wanna break up those like little pieces in there and, getting them nice and ready to be juiced.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm. And I got my three eggs. So, what we’re gonna do first is we’re gonna crack those eggs in half, okay?听

Zoe: Any tips for newbies?

Kuma: Try and crack in the center of the egg itself, okay?听

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: It can be a little bit challenging. That’s okay. If you’re having trouble separating out the egg yolks itself; ’cause normally you would go in between each half shell-听

Zoe: Yeah …听

Kuma: to separate the egg whites from the yolk, is dump the entire egg into it, make sure the yolk is not cracked, so it’s leaking. Take an empty water bottle, like a convenience store with that twist top, and suck in that egg yolk into the bottle and put it in a different bowl.听

Zoe: You know what? I never even thought about that. I always thought that was a party trick, but that actually makes a lot of sense.

Kuma: Mm-hmm. All right, ready?听

Zoe: Yeah!

Kuma: And there’s also some accessibility devices, actually, to crack an egg.听

Zoe: That is true, yeah. And whatever you’re looking for, whether you’re just getting into it, like me, or whether or not it’s just a little too difficult and like me, you’re looking for an accessibility device, without vision. It’s a little more difficult, but there are egg cracking devices that you can actually buy very cheap. Tap a button, cracks the egg and then you can split the egg open. It’s still up to you to separate the egg white and the egg yolk. But, hey! Cracking an egg without destroying it is a real victory for me at this point!听

Kuma: Mm-hmm. So, I got one egg cracked. Now I’m onto the next one.听

Zoe: Delicious.

Kuma: And the more you- Ooh!

Zoe: What happened?

Kuma: I just fully dropped it!听

Zoe: Mistakes happen! We’ll just clean it up!听

Kuma: That was hilarious! The yolk is perfectly intact!听

Zoe: On the floor?!听

Kuma: In my hand. I somehow caught it at the perfect second!

Zoe: You caught the yolk in your hand?!听

Kuma: I caught the yolk at the perfect second! I have a whole egg yolk in my hand!

Zoe: How is – ?

Kuma: I don’t know, but the egg white’s on the floor. Whoops. Oh, can you get… Can I have those paper towels? Yeah, yeah. And can you get me another egg?

Zoe: I will get you another egg. Yeah. I’ll war- I’ll try to warm the other egg real quick! ‘Cause we don’t have a fridge. Oh, I don’t…听

Kuma: That’s so impressive!

Zoe: Those are some reflexes right there!听

Kuma: Oh, oh. I’m good. Oh, my God, that just, that just… Okay.听

Zoe: Those are some quick s- I can’t believe you caught the yolk- and it didn’t break.听

Kuma: I don’t know! It just happened! Okay. I’ll mop it up… and I’m sure we’ll just give Tucker the extra eggshells and yolk.听

Zoe: Well, yeah, the egg yolk.

Kuma: Oh.听

Zoe: He’s gonna enjoy that!听

Kuma: Oh, we’re good, folks! Okay. I’m gonna crack that third egg.听

Zoe: Yeah. I’m doing a quick warm on this egg with my own body. You don’t wanna microwave or anything.听

Kuma: No.听

Zoe: Yeah. No, I’m doing, I’m just using my own hands to just warm this egg real quick.听

Kuma: I-听

Zoe: I was, like, shocked.

Kuma: Oh, folks, if only you could have seen that! That was, that was-听

Zoe: We were just talking about experiments and mistakes.听

Kuma: Okay.听

Zoe: Just goes to show that nothing is impossible in the kitchen.听

Kuma: Oh, my God-听

Zoe: I’m just, astounded that you caught the egg yolk. It needs a minute more. I’m just trying to keep it getting nice and room temperature. But, you got that third egg ready, right?听

Kuma: Yeah, it’s already cracked. I just need one more set of egg whites. That’s all I need.听

Zoe: We can take the extra egg yolk and, I don’t know, feed that to Tucker or-听

Kuma: Yeah, with the eggshells. Oh, by the way, folks, if you have dogs and if they’re not allergic to chicken or eggs, eggshells and raw eggs, or even cooked eggs, plain cooked eggs, are very good for them.听

Zoe: Yes, they are. Just make sure to grind up those eggshells.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: Good calcium for them, but you don’t want them to get a spiky piece of eggshell. All right. Give that a go. What do you think?听

Kuma: Yeah, that’ll work. Now, I’m just going for the egg whites here.听

Zoe: Perfect! Don’t drop it. Ooh.听

Kuma: Okay.听

Zoe: And why do we want them room temperature before we crack them?听

Kuma: It’s easier to separate them-听

Zoe: That makes sense…听

Kuma: Usually. But, I think it’s also just has to do with how they cook, I guess.听

Zoe: Yeah, an even temperature.听

Kuma: Can I give you the eggs for Tucker?

Zoe: Yeah, sure.

Kuma: Okay. Put all that in his bowl.听

Zoe: Fabulous.听

Kuma: I’m gonna wash my hands really good.听

Zoe: That’s a good idea.

Kuma: Do you have more paper towels?听

Zoe: Yeah. Here, take this one that I’m using right now.听

Kuma: It’s more for the floor, ’cause it’s literally right where I’m standing.听

Zoe: Yeah. Again, want to keep a clean workstation.听

Kuma: Yeah. Oh, I’m gonna have to let them all out.听

Zoe: And egg whites do get sticky. It’s okay, we’ll clean that.

Kuma: Okay! Okay, folks! We’re good. That was a funny mistake that just happened.听

Zoe: You literally managed to catch yourself before the mistake really hit the floor, though.听

Kuma: Don’t ask me. Okay. So, I have the egg yolks. I have the egg whites. I’m gonna juice the lemons now.听

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: And again, we only need a third of a cup. But, what I’m also gonna do is I’m gonna save the lemons-听

Zoe: Okay…听

Kuma: and zest them-听

Zoe: That’s a great idea…听

Kuma: for the rind itself.听

Zoe: Yeah. Get more of that authentic lemon flavor in there, not just that lemon juice. Now, I’m super inexperienced. What’s the best way to juice a lemon?听

Kuma: You can do it with your hands.听

Zoe: Well, I’m gonna cut it in half and then squeeze it over. But, that’s kind of what I thought, but just making sure there wasn’t some secret technique.听

Kuma: And you can buy these little mini juicer things-听

Zoe: Oh, I’ve seen those!听

Kuma: But, like, from the store…听

Zoe: seems like an extra step, really. I mean-听

Kuma: That’s what I have.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: It helps catch, um, the-听

Zoe: Oh, the seeds and everything, right?听

Kuma: Yeah. And the pulp.听

Zoe: That is true.听

Kuma: So, I’m just doing that.听

Zoe: I don’t know. I think of the pulp as a- whatchama call it? “Happy little accident”?听

Kuma: Yeah. But, again, I also rolled the lemons to try and get the juice to come forward easier.

Zoe: True, true, true it’s fabulous and your house is gonna be smelling amazing with that lemon.听

Kuma: Oh, I love the smell of lemon!听

Zoe: Back when I was younger, I think one of the things that we used to do was; we would take an orange peel or, like, a lemon peel and stick it in the fridge for a day after we used it. We’d throw it away afterwards, ’cause you don’t want the whole lemon going bad or anything. But, it would get nice and fragrant.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Oh, those are some firm lemons.听

Kuma: Yeah, you gotta have a little bit of wrist strength. So, if it’s easier for you to use that pre-made lemon juice for cooking, go for it.听

Zoe: You gotta have a little bit of wrist strength? I’m out.听

Kuma: Oh, yes. You’re a little weak, Zoe.听

Zoe: It’s a chore to carry shopping bags home!

Kuma: I mean, it’s a chore for everyone. Not a chore. But, you have a slightly heavy bag, and it’s not even five pounds and you say it’s heavy.听

Zoe: Then my hand starts tingling. I’m like, “Oh, this is the heaviest bag ever.”. It’s my dream to one day run out of the car and back into the house without carrying any groceries home.

Kuma: It will never happen so long as you live with me.

Zoe: Hey, the message of this podcast is to bring it back to the student experience and to chase your dreams. So, someday I will achieve that dream of running back into the house with Tucker and not carrying any groceries.听

Kuma: We’re doing some very fresh lemon juice. Okay. So, we need a third of a cup.

Zoe: And how much did we get from those three lemons, do you think?听

Kuma: Almost three-quarters.听

Zoe: That’s a lot. We can save the excess-听

Kuma: Mm-hmm…听

Zoe: and use that for other cooking projects. Yes. See? Again, cooking is so perfect. ‘Cause even if you make mistakes, they turn into inspiration for your next meals. you can take that and on hot days like these you can make actual lemonade. Didn’t you get that one lemonade like a day or two ago and you were so happy, Kuma?听

Kuma: Oh, yeah, I got fresh lemonade from an orchard. It was in a 32 ounce container.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: And, it was just a Tupperware of lemon juice and marionberries and ice.

Zoe: Oh, so good.听

Kuma: Okay. So, we’re adding the egg yolks and the lemon juice.听

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: Right? Yeah. Am I remembering that correctly?听

Zoe: Well, it’s the egg yolks first, I believe. You start to beat them and then, you first add in the condensed milk-听

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: Thank you, and then the lemon juice.听

Kuma: So, I’m gonna start beating the egg yolks, and then I’m gonna pull out the pie dough.

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: And then I’ll add in the-听

Zoe: Condensed milk?

Kuma: Condensed milk. So, the mixer will be loud.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: So, we’ll pause.听

Zoe: We’ll pause as it’s mixing just so that we don’t hurt lovely viewers’ ears.听

Kuma: Yeah. Okay.听

Zoe: And, we’re back. The egg yolks were just mixed up in the mixer. We slowly added in our condensed milk. We slowly added in that lovely lemon juice and lemon zest. What does the mixture look like now?听

Kuma: So, it’s a pale yellow in color.听

Zoe: Ooh.听

Kuma: And, kinda, “Jell-O” consistency.听

Zoe: Okay, yeah. ‘Cause, we don’t wanna overbeat it either, and just wanna make sure that you, the viewer, know how it should look like.

Kuma: So, I have that. I’m scraping down the sides, and I’m pouring it into the pie tin, okay?听

Zoe: Oh, delicious. Yeah.

Kuma: ‘Cause I took the pie tin out of the oven.听

Zoe: And it’s a wonderful crust. Came out perfect. Half cooked and not going to stick or congeal together with that inside

Kuma: And I’m just scraping down the bowl so we get everything out.听

Zoe: You know what, Kuma? Aside from Shepherd’s Pie, this is actually the first pie that I’ve ever made with someone.听

Kuma: Really?听

Zoe: In general, yeah! I’ve never made, a fruit pie. Well, I’ve tried, but last time I tried making a fruit pie it- what’s the word? The top collapsed and covered the center.听

Kuma: Oh, yeah.听

Zoe: Yeah, and it was bad! The bottom did congeal together with the fruit.听

Kuma: Okay. So, because the pan is still hot, I’m using my spatula.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: My silicone spatula, and trying to even it out.听

Zoe: Mm-hmm. Safety first, everyone.

Kuma: The pie dough?听

Zoe: Regarding the heat and everything. Oh, yeah. We don’t wanna burn ourselves.听

Kuma: So, that’s done. So, now what I’m gonna do with the bowl is I’m gonna wash it and then add those three egg whites, start beating it. Then slowly add in those six tablespoons of sugar.听

Zoe: That’s wonderful. Yeah. We’ll come back. ‘Cause again, the mixer’s loud. But, we’ll come back right at the end to describe what it looks like, and to add the egg white and that, that lovely, that’ll be a meringue at that point-听

Kuma: Mm-hmm…听

Zoe: On top of that pie filling. So, yeah. We’ll be back in just a second.

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: All right! So, we’re back. We just whipped together that meringue. We took a look at it, thought it could use a little bit more time, so we whipped it until it was nice and airy. Nice and stiff, nice and airy. Didn’t look like it would fold over really easily. And so I think it’s got the perfect amount of whipping.听

Kuma: So, if you’ve seen Marshmallow Fluff and what it looks like, or marshmallow cream, we’re kinda going for a consistency like that.听

Zoe: Ooh, okay!听

Kuma: So, what I did was I added the egg whites, those three room temperature egg whites, as I was beating. And you have to, if you’re mixing it by hand, you have to beat it by hand very, very, very fast-听

Zoe: Yeah…听

Kuma: for a long while. So, be prepared for that. Slowly add in the sugar. And then I added some of that fresh mint to it. So, kinda like a sugared mint.听

Zoe: Yeah, it’s really good.听

Kuma: And what I did to the pie was then I added the rest of that minced mint. ‘Cause, I chopped it up very, very finely, and then the lemon zest just straight on top. Now I’m adding the meringue on top of it.听

Zoe: Delicious. It’s gonna be that nice fluffy cloud layer. And yeah, again, if you don’t have a mixer, just don’t be afraid. It’ll take a little bit longer, but it’ll be fun. You just gotta beat it by hand and then you’ll get a nice creamy finish. So, you’ll be good to go.听

Kuma: Gonna be a weirdo and take a photo.听

Zoe: I think it would be weird not to take a photo of such a delicious pie!

Kuma: Well, I don’t make pies very often.听

Zoe: This is the first actual dessert pie that I’ve did with someone.听

Kuma: I’m just scooping all of that meringue on top, okay? So, I have added the meringue. Kinda looks like a little mound.听

Zoe: Ooh, delicious!听

Kuma: And I’m just patting it, ’cause I want some peaks.

Zoe: Get it looking nice and artistic for the fun look and the fun textures. And, again, those are really fluffy egg whites, so no matter what thickness you use, it’s gonna cook fast. How long do we have it in the oven for?听

Kuma: Only seven minutes.

Zoe: Wow, okay.听

Kuma: Yeah.

Zoe: Well, then once we slide it in, it only takes seven minutes to bake. After that we can take it out and it’ll be tempting to just cut right into that, but don’t do it. Just let it get to about room temp, cool down a little bit. If you put it immediately in the fridge, that’s really bad. It’s really easy for it to develop salmonella, and whatnot. Getting it really hot to really cold really fast. So, just let it cool a bit and then chill it in the fridge for a few hours. Then once that’s ready to go, and once you’re ready to serve it, you can pull it out, grab a slice, and serve. There we go. We’re sliding it right into the oven. We will pull it out, chill it, and taste it. We will tell you how it turned out on our next episode, but until then, please leave comments or your own little stories or feedback about what you think about this pie and this recipe. Until next time! Thanks for joining us on “A Slice of Life”. Thanks to our special guest hosts Ray and Patricia. I’ve been Zoe. This has been Tucker and-听

Kuma: This is Kuma! Have fun baking everyone!

Outro

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .听

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Introduction

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on听, and .

Course Tagging

Miri: Hello, everybody! My name is Miri, and today’s episode of Let’s Talk! is an extra special double feature. Starting things off, I’ll be talking to our newest associate, Elianna about the efforts at 抖阴福利导航 to implement a course tagging system intended to increase accessibility and clarify expectations for a course before signing up for it. Then we’ll hand it over to our friend Anne Verduin, who will be discussing ABLE accounts, what they are, and how they can benefit you with her special guest, Laura Halsey. So make yourself some tea and enjoy today’s episode! Thank you so much for talking to me about this today. Would you start by introducing yourself with your name, pronouns, major, occupation, that sort of thing?听

Elianna: Hello, my name is Elianna. I’m currently a student at PSU. I’m in the Urban and Public Affairs program, and I’m in the Honors College as well. My, my undergraduate thesis is on cooperative housing. I work here as an advocate, and then I do some dog sitting and dog walking. I hope to get a real job once my Medicare timeline starts hitting something, ’cause then I need to work, like, 40 hours a week or something to keep my Medicare. And my pronouns are she/they.听

Miri: Awesome. And by here, do you mean work at PSU or 抖阴福利导航?

Elianna: I work at 抖阴福利导航.听

Miri: Awesome. So you are here to talk about your course tagging project that you and others have been working on, correct?听

Elianna: Yes.听

Miri: So what is course tagging? ‘Cause I know most people have never even heard of that.听

Elianna: So I got the idea — I actually started working for AEDR because of course tagging, so the id- it was my idea, ’cause it’s like as someone with ADHD, I found that there were, like, certain classes just by the way that they were structured and, like, how we used certain materials, I had a much easier time keeping up with classes. I came up –I have a STEM associate’s, so it’s like, a lot of biology, a lot of math, a lot of chemistry. So it’s like there were certain classes that they would have a packet, and I really like this kind of pre-printed packet. It was like the notes were already kind of there, and then you would fill in, and then you could hold on to those notes. And it was so much easier for me to do that rather than being in classes where I had to, like, come up with the notes wholesale. Where I had to, like, look up to the board, look down, like copy down whatever kind of graph or other kind of drawing was on the board and then also fill in notes. And that was just so much more work for me as someone with ADHD, and it made it so much more stressful, and I was like, missing parts of the lecture because I was trying to focus on copying down what was on the board, and that just wasn’t good for me. But then it’s like-听

Miri: It’s a lot of attention that you have to pay to something that is not just learning.听

Elianna: Yeah, so it’s like, but that isn’t really, like, something that’s available on the course description currently. You know, there’s actually a lot of issues with professors not uploading their syllabus. And there is a possibility right now for professors to fill in a course description, but it’s very, like, a blank slate for them, and they wouldn’t even know possibly what even to write in of, like, how to describe their class or how to describe their course in terms of, like, physically being in the course and what kind of students could expect from, like, their routine of being in the class. And coming up in the Gateway to College program, we had this one math teacher where you didn’t really have a choice about what math teacher you had, and she had the packets. And I really loved this teacher, but I was one of the few people who did.听

Miri: Interesting.听

Elianna: Apparently, a lot of other people didn’t really like her. They found her very strict, and they found her very this, that, or the other thing. I didn’t. Maybe it’s because I came up in the South with, you know, more strict teachers of, higher expectation teachers. So it’s like her was nothing to me, but it’s like I genuinely did not find her to be at all a hardass that other people did. And so but even outside of that, there was one girl in my Gateway to College program who really did not gel with the learning style and the teaching style of this class, and she had to take it multiple times and it was like tears multiple times a week from just how much this class stressed her out and just how incompatible it was. And it really is this belief that, you know, I have this belief that education should not be suffering. Like I know in college there really is kind of like this idea of like, “Yeah, college, you’re gonna live off a Cup Noodle and get sick off of living off of Cup Noodle, and then you’re gonna party hard ’cause you worked hard, and it’s gonna make you sick. And then you’re gonna take all these classes, and you’re gonna wanna kill yourself.” And it’s You know, it’s like this kind of like normalization, even valorization of the suffering of getting a higher education, and it’s like that shouldn’t be the thing. Like, that really is something we talk about in disability culture, which is, you know, why should this thing be suffering? Why should this thing, you know, that has barriers for people, this is something we choose to have because of how we choose to set up our societies. So, and then even like not as, as a disabled person, like even if you have like jobs going on, or if you have kids, if you have other kind of like caretaking responsibilities or if you… you know, there’s all sorts of things people could have going on in their lives that’s gonna hinder them from getting an education. So the point of this is that, you know, the tagging project is we’re gonna give, we’re gonna have a shared language list of like terms of descriptors for teachers to then select, and then they don’t have to type up something whole cloth. And then everyone can have a better idea of what to expect when they’re entering, when they’re choosing classes, and then they can hopefully pick something that they eventually learn, “Oh, I like it when a class does this more, and I’m not as happy when a class does that.” And then they can better pick their course loads. Or even if they don’t have a choice, then they can go like, “I know this class is gonna be difficult for me in X, Y, Z reasons, so I should, you know, contact with the teacher, see if I can work out accommodations with them, talk with the disability resource center to make sure I get the accommodations from there. And then I can appropriately workload because I know this is gonna be difficult for me. It’s gonna take more energy. I should not take like four classes or three classes. Maybe I should just take two or focus all my time on this one.” And then that means that people aren’t wasting their time and stressing themselves out, and then it costs money to go to school, so then they’re saving their money as well by choosing something that’s not, that they have more awareness of, and they can better either pick classes that they’re gonna like more or better regulate their time and stress levels.

Miri: Absolutely. And besides people with life things getting in the way, like kids or disability or things- different brains just have different ways of absorbing information. Like I, personally, am horrible at doing busy work homework. I will just not do it. I will get, you know, 98% on tests and then get 20% on homework. But if it’s project-based homework, like something where I get to use my creative side, use problem-solving, come up with my own answers and solutions, it’s great, and I do a great job. And it’s much easier for me. So having project-based classes is vastly preferable to having busywork-based classes, and that would be a very nice thing to know going into a class instead of having to figure out in the first couple weeks.

Elianna: Yeah, and then looking at this from the teacher perspective as well, it means that it’ll be more likely that they’ll get students that work well with their class. And, uh, then they don’t have to worry so much about like, oh, now there’s a student in my class who is drowning in the work or is like really lost or really stressed out. And then it’s like we’re, you know, X many weeks into the term, and there’s only so much time that the student has to turn stuff around or anything like that. So it’s, you know, it helps select for, like, teachers I’m sure find a certain satisfaction from watching a student be challenged and then overcoming that challenge.

Miri: Absolutely.听

Elianna: I don’t imagine teachers like watching students just suffer. And then-听

Miri: One would really hope not, at least.听

Elianna: Well, yeah, one would hope not. And then it also means that students have another way of seeing what a class is going to be like without having to rely on very unreliable r- websites, like Rate My Professor, which can be extremely biased.听

Miri: Yeah, ’cause the people who go on that are people who love the professor or people who really hated the professor.听

Elianna: Yeah. And then it’s, yeah, it’s, you know, then you’re still wondering, like, what is this class gonna be like? What did the bias say for this person? So then it’s, it’s a much more in-house and controlled, and then people, you know, the teacher can represent themselves without having to type up a whole cloth description.

Miri: So how would that be implemented for teachers? Like, both practically in when are they given time and opportunity to do this, and how is it presented to them in a way where they aren’t feeling like they are going to be forced to narrow their own education ability?听

Elianna: Uh, well, it’s like, you know, there’s still in kind of discussion. I’m currently stalled out because of I, I see you have a later question here about Workday. Uh, so it’s like I can’t really do much right now because the people who are doing the shift over to Workday don’t even know what Workday can do in regards to this. And they’re not even gonna meet with me to give me a green light to send out my surveys so then I can then go back and talk to the teachers to get a better idea from them. Yeah, and then it’s allegedly the new, like, course description on Workday is two years away, so.听

Miri: Yeah, the current plan is for the work- the student-facing side of Workday stuff to be, what, what is it, what would that be, 2027 school year? Something like that.听

Elianna: Yeah, 2027, something like that.听

Miri: Which is a long way off.

Elianna: It’s a long way off and not long, not a long way off at all.听

Miri: Yeah.听

Elianna: So it’s, you know, I’m really flexible with it, but the idea is, I guess, we’re gonna have, like, meetings of shared language, then everyone knows what we’re talking about, and then we would, like, let them, like, check off from the list, you know, what they think applies or what they believe would apply. And they can add little blurbs to it to add more description if they want. It’s kind of like giving them a structure that they can work off of and then add caveats or other kind of description if they want, and then another, like, big box I’m thinking that they could type in more information that they would want to put in. And I know that it’s like the professors need to meet certain criteria for getting their syllabus done. And before they can upload it, and that can be one of the barriers to them uploading their syllabus to the course description page.听

Miri: Oh, to make sure that they have actually gone through and filled out the information?

Elianna: Yeah, so it’s like the idea with this is that it’s more flexible and it’s more in their court. And I hope that by making it as easy as possible, it is less of a chore for them, and it really is like, it’s a tool that they can use for their own, you know, autonomy and representation and it becomes something positive for professors. That really is my hope with this, is that this would be mutually beneficial for students and for professors.听

Miri: I agree. And it sounds like it would be, especially given that much autonomy. ‘Cause the… Okay, so the project title involves tagging. So is it going to be a tagging system like what we are familiar with in other softwares like Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, that kind of thing, where you can sort by tags or Archive of Our Own, I guess?

Elianna: Yeah. Well, it’s like that’s… Honestly, I was thinking more like Archive of Our Own when I was thinking of this idea. But it’s like, yeah, it’s… I’m not a software engineer or anything like that, so I can’t really speak to that as well, so I’m really flexible in how we get this thing worked out, just so long as we get it worked out. I know that we currently do have a lot of filters for, like, what day is it on? Is it in person? Is it on campus? Which campus?听

Miri: So you’d be hoping to add things that are, like, filter by heavy homework, more test-oriented, more lecture-oriented, more practice-oriented, that kind of thing?听

Elianna: Yeah, it’s like that would be nice, and then it would really help prevent people from, like, looking at a whole big list of classes that aren’t gonna be applicable to them. Uh, but otherwise, I am flexible on it, where it’s, you know, maybe they filter it out, maybe they don’t, ’cause I… That’s certainly been a frustration of mine looking for classes at PSU and stuff, where it’s like I need something to be in person. Like, I really just cannot do remote learning. Like, I need to be in person talking and working with people to be able to focus.

Miri: Yes. Yeah.听

Elianna: So, and-听

Miri: In-person classes are so much easier for a lot of people.听

Elianna: Yeah. So it’s, you know, and then it’s like, oh, there’s no classes available for the class I’m looking for in person. So it, it really is kind of like, you know, how much runaround is the, are the students gonna have with filtering things out or just kind of going, like, maybe, like, ranked, like, levels of, like, I could tolerate this, or I could, you know, what is going to be in or out of the system for them, and how the, what Workday can do is something I’m, I’m flexible for. Like, I don’t wanna be married to anything and then be, like, so devastated that we can’t do it.听

Miri: Yeah, that’s fair.听

Elianna: I just wanna get, like, labels done at least. Bare minimum, get labels. It’d be nice if we can filter some stuff out, if the people really are like, “I cannot do this class, and I must have, you know, this element in a class.”听

Miri: So the main focus of the project right now is to develop that shared language for teachers to be able to use?听

Elianna: Yeah, I’d like to be able to do that, but I can’t get the green light for putting out my survey that I made before getting the go-ahead from the people at Workday that I, that they can do it or they would be able to do it, so. I have a whole survey. I’m not sure if Silver, who did the art for my posters, uh, is still with us. Uh, thank you, Silver, very much for doing these posters. They’re very pretty. It’s not, you know, I can’t do anything right now. I’m really, I’m stalled out right now until I can get the go-ahead from the people at Workday that I can send out my surveys to know what students would want to know. Because I know I have a lot of blind spots as someone who came up in STEM, and I didn’t have as much of, like, an arts background, or language background or many of the other kind of, like, especially the, like, the trade programs that we have here. Like, there’s so much I don’t know about the experience of others. So it, that’s why I made the survey as well, is that there’s some tags I knew of, but then there’s also, like, oh, other people might wanna put in their ideas into the hat, and then we can see, like, if the tags I’ve already presented have certain levels of popularity.听

Miri: So this will be a public-facing survey, like something that would be听

viewable-听

Elianna: Yeah, it’s gonna, like, post it up… oh, sorry听

Miri: Oh, uh, it’ll be fillable by students?听

Elianna: Yeah. So it’s like I have posters, I was gonna post them up around the campuses, and then it would go out in, like, our newsletter. I kept trying to remember if it’s still, like, Panther Talk or something like that. Um, and then people could go onto the survey, and they can fill out… like, I already have some tags up there. They can check to go, like, “Oh, this would be nice. Oh, this would be nice.” And then I have, like, a give me your own ideas section at the bottom, so.听

Miri: That’s super cool. I had assumed that it was going to be a survey for teachers of, like, how would you rate yourself? But it being student-faced is extra interesting that you can’t get a thumbs up, green light for it.听

Elianna: So our supervisor, Kayla, is concerned about getting students’ hopes up听

Miri: Yeah.

Elianna: By having this survey go out and then having it not come to fruition. So that’s why I can’t send out the student-facing survey.

Miri: Interesting. Yeah. It would be a shame for people to get excited about this and then have someone be like, “Oh, actually, unfortunately, this doesn’t work,” because mysterious back-end things that only four people understand. Interesting. So have you gotten teachers involved in the process so far?听

Elianna: I’ve spoken with some teachers. Um, I have went to the teachers’ union meeting to talk about it with them like, couple summers ago. Uh, and there was… It was overall okay. Uh, there were some concerns about, like, with the shared language of, like, a student signs up for a class hoping that, you know, it’s gonna look like this, but then it looks like something else. So, and that’s kind of the point of, like, trying to have as much shared language as possible and have, like, you know, even if there’s a term, we can have a description, like, pop up still of what this term means. Then, like, really making sure that, you know, we protect our teachers. And then they were also concerned about, like, time or, like, what if a teacher wants to be more experimental and they wanna try things out? Then it’s like, oh, well, then you could still, like, flip it, like, like, say yes to the tag, and then go, “I’m trying this out. I’m flexible on things changing throughout the term,” or something like that. It really is just kind of like giving people the opportunity to represent themselves as easily as possible and giving them a scaffolding to.

Miri: Represent themselves, and also increasing transparency between both teachers and students ’cause the students will be like, “Oh, well, this is exactly what I’m looking for. I will take it with this teacher, and then maybe I’ll take more class with this teacher.”听

Elianna: Yeah.听

Miri: And the teacher will be able to represent themself as, like, “This is how I like to teach classes. I like teaching students who do well with this kind of thing and not who suffer with this kind of thing.”听

Elianna: Yeah, and it’s like I’ve had that experience. It’s like I had a math teacher right after I had my initial teacher at the Gateway to College program, and he was very, like, well-liked. He was, uh, very highly recommended. But he didn’t have the packet, so I was wasting time, like, writing down notes and everything. And I didn’t feel as secure in my grasp of the content of the class as I had with my previous teacher. I still did, I still got an A in the class, and he was a very lovely person.听

Miri: Congratulations.听

Elianna: So it’s not like judging him as a teacher, as a person, it just wasn’t as compatible of, of a fit.

Miri: Yeah. That, that’s the other thing I was thinking about, is worrying that, which apparently the teachers in the union meeting were worrying about too, is worrying about making teachers feel judged. So having them be able to represent themselves instead of going just through, you know, clicking, “Yes, I do this. No, I don’t do that,” is- … uh, uh, I think is a strength to alleviate that concern.听

Elianna: Yeah. It really is just kind of like giving folks like, “Okay, here are like some things students would wanna know beforehand.”听

Elianna: And you can click on this, and you can add whatever you want to that. So then they’re not doing like, you know, running around in the dark whole cloth descriptions. Yeah. And currently there’s like no, uh, most teachers don’t write a description. And there were also some concerns at, at the union meeting that, are they going to be paid for their time that they put into writing their descriptions and selecting things, so鈥μ�

Miri: Yeah. I hope so. Teachers deserve to get paid for–听

Elianna: They do, yeah

Miri: –all the work they do. My wife is a teacher, and while her, you know, hourly rate is pretty good, it’s all for classroom work and not all the extra work that you have to do outside the classroom. So when you average it out, the pay ends up being pretty low. She works for the district, not for 抖阴福利导航, but that is still a, a, a very valid concern for the union. Okay. So, so currently course descriptions are in the class catalog. Would this be in the same place?听

Elianna: I’m kinda hoping so. So it’s, you know, it would probably be easier to, I don’t know what the software is gonna look like. I’m guessing it might be easier to kinda keep the course catalog, and then it would just be like in there. You know, it is just one of those things of where it’s like I wanna be as flexible as possible with this. I don’t know about software engineering. I really just want whatever, like there are certain hopes that I have, the things I’d like to have, but I’m not like depending on it. I just need to get like the l- the ingredient label. The class ingredient label needs to be in there–

Miri: Yeah, exactly.听

Elianna: –Just somehow, some way.听

Miri: Maximum dose of sodium.听

Elianna: Yes.听

Miri: Uh, so you mentioned that you went to this meeting a few summers ago. How long have you been working on this project?听

Elianna: Uh, it’s been a while. It really is like with a lot of the projects that I work on, it’s waiting for other people to get back to me. So it’s… Like, and then I also, I wanna try to do this for PSU as well, so I have done some work on creating, like, a PSU thing, but it’s a lot more difficult for me to do stuff on the PSU side because I’m not an official employee. I’m just, like, some person wandering around who’s also a student. Um, but then it would be nice to have, you know, if this tagging project and this system works really well for 抖阴福利导航, then whatever, like, university that they go to, whether it’s PSU, OSU, or U of O, then this system can follow them into these different universities and make life easier continuously as people seek their education.

Miri: Yeah, that’d be fantastic.听

Elianna: So it’s, you know, it really is just, like, a lot of waiting on people. So it’s like my main contact for that at PSU was the Associated Students Union. So, like, in the meantime while waiting for Workday to get back to me it’s been, like, “Oh, let me make sure I’m in contact,” or like, “I have the green light and support from the student union. Let me make sure that I have support from these other people,” and that was, like, part of, like, filling out my proposal sheet for Workday, people who work on Workday, and getting that filled out. So that’s all filled out. It really is just kind of like waiting now.听

Miri: Hurry up and wait.听

Elianna: It’s a lot of waiting. And so I have a lot of other projects I’m working on at AEDR to kind of fill that time while I wait for the two years it’s going to take for Workday to finally–听

Miri: It is a very long transition.听

Elianna: Yeah. So I, I imagine my workload’s gonna uptick once Workday figures out, once they get to that point of working on the course catalog page and the sign up and everything like that, so.

Miri: Yeah, when whatever changes to the back end are more concretely in place. That would be very nice. Yeah, I hope so. Is there any more on this that you have to, to share with our wonderful listeners?听

Elianna: Not per se, I don’t think right now. It really is just kind of like, you know, hopefully this thing gets implemented and hopefully we can make education so much less stressful for students. And then teachers will have a greater feeling of agency and a greater feeling of transparency with their classes, and then they can almost like pre-select for students who will thrive in their classes. It’ll make things easier. Like that was one of the things that was brought up, it’s like what if a teacher ends up being judged for being like the mean teacher? And it’s like the teacher I loved was the mean teacher. You will find your students.听

Miri: That’s a good point, yeah.听

Elianna: So yeah, it really is, you know, it really isn’t that difficult I don’t think, but I’m not a software engineer and I’m not the people working on Workday. I don’t know what horrors I have yet to come across moving forward.听

Miri: I, I am a software engineer. That’s what I graduated from 抖阴福利导航 in. And man, let me tell you, working, building something from scratch yourself is often so much easier than trying to implement something made by somebody else. Like y- you know, you’re talking about this right now and I’m like, “Oh, this would be s- incredibly easy to do. You would just add a text box here and then you’d have it push to this.” And then I’m like, “Well, in Workday, who knows? You might have to like get out some chalk and some candles, draw a little pentagram on the ground, summon some ancient demon of Workday knowledge.” So I hope the transition does allow for this. Was it something that was impossible in the previous system or was it just-听

Elianna: I don’t know if it was impossible in the previous system. I think part of what did give my tagging system more of a boost was that why don’t we j- ’cause there was complaints about the previous system from some of the people who work in our tech, uh, department. So it’s like, “Oh, why don’t we just wait for the overhaul to do this thing? Then it can be part of the new overhaul instead of spending this time trying to get it to work in our current system which is just gonna go away.”听

Miri: Yeah, that makes sense. Still a shame that it has to take that time to be implemented though. And I hope that this being now shared in a slightly more public forum will spur some people to make sure that this is going to be an option going into the overhaul and all the changes that are gonna be made to our systems.听

Elianna: Yeah, so it’s very-听

Miri: ‘Cause now people can hear about it and people can be like, “Oh, that’s a really cool idea.” Or if someone- Yeah … you know, if someone working on it hasn’t heard about it th- before, they’re like, “Oh yeah, I could probably figure out how to do that in, y’know, a half a work week,” that kind of thing. So-听

Elianna: Well, it’s like I’ve talked with folks who run the YES to College, the Gateway to College Future Connect folks, and they’re really excited about this ’cause they know that they have students in their programs who really have struggled before and who have a lot on their plate already when it comes to getting an education. So, this tagging project would really make it so much easier for their students to get an education. Some of them have had bad experience with education in the past, so this would really significantly reduce their students’ anxiety levels and other issues around getting an education. It is an equity issue. It is an accessibility issue. So, it really is something that I hope can happen for this school and for schools in Oregon and possibly even outside of Oregon. It really is just, “why don’t we do things that make it easier?”. For podcast listeners, I’m not sure if you also know this term, but it’s the “curb cut effect”, where we do something to help disabled people and then it ends up helping so many more people. I had this really excellent teacher for statistics and what he did is that he would record his lecture every day. There was a woman in my class who was also a mom, who worked, and sometimes she would have to be called out of the class to go take care of her kid. But, then this way she could look at the recorded lecture once she was out of the class and keep up with everyone just fine. So, someone in her position where she might have to leave the class sometimes; knowing that there’s a recorded lecture that went over what the information that she needs to keep up with and what the homework’s gonna be about, having that capacity for her to do that makes it so much easier for her to get an education and be a parent.

Miri: Absolutely. We talked about something similar in an episode I made a few months ago with some other teachers including Jesse Mejia, who is a teacher at 抖阴福利导航. He said that one of his dream things, to have in all classrooms, is the ability to record good audio and good video for every class so it can be uploaded and hosted and reviewed by people who can’t make it. Because, like you were saying, that is incredibly helpful for people who are a mom and have to go take care of their kid, or have a job, or have a chronic illness and can’t be there very often. Or, if you miss the bus one day and can’t make it to class, then you can just go home and instead of it being a defeat where you are a day behind and calculably an amount of money behind for the hours that you’ve missed, you can just go home and catch up.听

Elianna: Yeah. Then there’s also certain rules about how many classes you can miss, and it’s not even something that’s always in the teacher’s control. I had a former classmate in the Gateway to College program where she was previously in the Gateway to College program, but then she got like appendicitis or had to get some kind of like surgery done.听

Miri: Yeah, yeah.听

Elianna: She had to stay multiple days home in bed rest, but the rule with Gateway to College, at least at that time, was if you miss X number of days you have to leave the program. So, it wasn’t even like she purposefully missed those days, she was just sick and needed bed rest from her surgery for some kind of operation that she had. This way if there were recorded lectures, then someone could still keep up while on bed rest at home.听

Miri: Yeah, I have a friend who had the same kind of thing happen. They had a major surgery, had to be in bed rest for four or five weeks, and some of their professors and their online classes could obviously accommodate to some extent, but they had a teacher at the time who just absolutely refused and was like, “No, I will not send you the extra material. If you are going to miss time. Sucks to be you.”. So, all those resources being available to people remotely is hugely valuable. That is one thing that is tagged on the terrible website of “Rate My Professor”, of like “attendance mandatory”, that kind of thing. ‘Cause there are some classes where there’s just not a lot you can do from home. When I was working in my “microcontrollers class”, you can do a lot of stuff from home, but especially once you’re in the capstone part and everyone’s working together on building the physical things, it just is more difficult. So, if you didn’t know that going into the class and you had a lot of time commitments otherwise, then you would struggle undeservedly. Apparently 抖阴福利导航 also has a guitar building class at Sylvania, which I was gonna take and then the pandemic happened, then they shut that down, ’cause obviously that has to be an in-person class. So, having things very clearly tagged as mandatory or– not mandatory, but– attendance strongly recommended to required is just helpful for everybody.听

Elianna: Yeah. And it’s like-听

Miri: And not hard to do…听

Elianna: I wonder like how much this has changed like post-pandemic when everyone was kind of remote and how comfortable professors are doing a recording or helping people be from home considering we had like a massive period of time where that was the only option. So, interesting point of view from that perspective, I guess. It’s like how much have teachers changed from the pandemic in their expectations of behavior and how they run their classes, but I guess that’s beside the point of the tagging project.听

Miri: Yeah. I mean, everything’s intersectional, right? All equity is related to itself in some way or another. Yeah, this is an excellent project, and I hope that it can get some wheels turning and get moving along a little faster, and I hope that there’s things that I, or others, can do to make sure that it happens.听

Elianna: I don’t know if- Should I give my old stats professor, who I loved, a shout-out? His name is Ian Nicolas. I think he usually teaches at Sylvania. So, yeah, if you need to take a stats class, I highly recommend Ian’s stats class. He’s a really cool guy.听

Miri: Yeah. You go, Ian!听

Elianna: And, I loved his class!听

Miri: Nice! That’s awesome! So, yeah, thank you very much for talking to me about this.听

Elianna: And thank you for asking about it.

Miri: Oh, yeah! Of course! Yeah, this was a super interesting conversation to have and a really interesting project to be working on, and I will definitely connect with you sometime in the future to see an update on how it’s going.听

Elianna: Okay! Hope we’ll have an update. We’ll see what happens.

ABLE Accounts

Anne: Hello, and thank you for tuning in to this episode of Let’s Talk!. I’m your host, Anne Verduin. Let’s talk “ABLE Accounts”. What are they? Why would you want one? Why are they important? An “ABLE Account” is a savings account that has a checking account aspect to it that can be obtained through possibly your state or possibly a national bank such as Fifth Third, where you can save money and not have to worry about losing your benefits. Did you know that if you count on government benefits, such as food stamps or Medicaid, if you start saving money and have two thousand dollars or more in assets, the government can, and will, discontinue your benefits, because you have more money than you’re allowed to have and still be on those benefits? Until I needed benefits like that, I didn’t think it mattered. When I started counting on those benefits, I didn’t wanna lose them in the event of some good fortune or finding the right job and having the ability to save money. So, I made the choice to open an ABLE Account. In today’s episode, I sit down with a woman who helped me decide to open my ABLE Account, and we talk about why they’re important for people with disabilities to at least know about and possibly even consider opening one. I hope you’ll find this conversation informative. With me is Laura Halsey, who helped me decide to open my ABLE Account. Hi, Laura! Thank you for being with us today!听

Lara: Thank you for having me! I’m excited!听

Anne: So, can you tell us about yourself and how you’re familiar with ABLE Accounts?听

Lara: Sure, yeah! Currently, I work as an Episcopal Priest for a church here in Portland. And, I know about ABLE accounts because about 10-ish years ago, before I went to seminary, I worked as a caregiver for a place called L’Arche, that is a international federation of homes, that provide care of some kind and intentional community for adults with intellectual disabilities. I lived and worked there for five years, and so I knew about them from that.

Anne: So, you’re pretty familiar from a job previous to you going into the ministry what people with disabilities need and deserve and are getting.听

Lara: Certainly. I know I’m not entirely an expert, but I’m very familiar with the complex reality of navigating the systems when you are on disability of some kind.

Anne: So, what are ABLE accounts, even, for those listeners who are not familiar with it; have never heard of them? Let’s just talk about the definition of the term and what they are.听

Lara: Sure, yeah. The way that I learned about them, as part of my role in L’Arche, I managed the finances of some of what we call core members. For them, what would happen almost every month for a few core members, ’cause so often many people on disability, not exactly high earners in terms of how much income they have.

Anne: They’re low income, you would consider them.听

Lara: Yeah, yeah. But, we did have a few core members who worked as artists and they would make these big art sales, and they’d have a large amount of money, and we would be under pressure to “spend down”, is what we called it, the money that they have.

Anne: Yeah. Because, the way it works is that for people on SSI, SSDI, food stamps, Medicaid; they could lose their benefits if they have over X number of dollars to their name, correct?听

Lara: Yes. They can lose their benefits, which they relied on if, in our case at the time, they had over $2,000 in their account, which is really not that much money.

Anne: You can’t save that-听

Lara: Right…听

Anne: You can’t save… $2,000 is nothing compared to, what you might want to say, graduate from college and make in your job.听

Lara: Sure.听

Anne: You wanna save a nest egg, except if you’ve got $2,500 in assets, it’s within the government’s power to look at that and say, “Uh, you do not qualify for benefits anymore. You have too much money.”.听

Lara: Which quite frankly is ridiculous on a lot of levels. But, not the least of which is what if you… So, you have a windfall one month, but not the next. $2,000 is beneficial money, but it’s not life-changing money. So, if you wanted to save up to go on this lifelong trip you’d hoped to go on, or if you wanted to, um-听

Anne: Have money saved up for the long-term future?

Lara: Yeah. Or, maybe, next month nobody’s buying art and you need a little bit more grocery money. Like-听

Anne: And, then what? You have to start all over again? So, you can try to apply for benefits, which would take longer than you wanna wait to get your money?

Lara: Yes. Yeah.

Anne: Or, more than you can wait to get your money. Because, that process of being… “processed” and “restarted”, I’m sure, is not a quick process.

Lara: Oh, yeah, I can’t… I mean, I haven’t had to go through the process myself. I’ve tried to look into it, and even just trying to figure it out on your own on the internet is so complicated. And, it kinda feels like…听

Anne: So, it’s overwhelming to even say, “They cut my benefits and now I need them again. How do I reapply?”.

Lara: Yes. Yeah, yeah. For sure. So, right when I was working at L’Arche, the people I was working with, who had this money and were spending down. There was a Supreme Court case that essentially said that was unconstitutional. However, the way these things work in reality is not that, like, “Oh, the Supreme Court said this. Suddenly we have the infrastructure. We have the… the way to make it happen.”.听

Anne: It’s like, “we’ll eventually enforce this law when we figure out how.”.听

Lara: Yeah. And, so, from what I understand it; a group of parents, who had children with disabilities, met with their congress people. Came together and came up with this act of, “here’s how you can have a savings account that’s precluded from affecting your benefits.”. And it is less complicated than a trust, for instance. You also generally have to have a lot more money for a trust. Just a disclaimer, I am not a financial person at all. These are just things I learned through experience. So, talk to a financial planner if you’re gonna get that actually set up.听

Anne: Yeah, we definitely… I personally, I won’t speak for Laura, but I personally think that an ABLE Account is a great thing to consider. But, before you make a decision, a conversation with a certified financial planner, which neither of us are, might be a good idea.听

Lara: Well, that’s what you ended up doing. Right? When I brought it up, you talked to a few different- were you able to get it at your bank?听

Anne: Not my bank. What I chose to do was; as I looked at Oregon’s ABLE account documents or resources, I believe what they call the plan booklet. I discovered that if you are not a resident of Oregon, you are not allowed to have an “Oregon-based” ABLE Account.听

Elianna: Oh…

Anne: Well, I know in my- I say “long-term”, but it may be closer to “short-term”. It may be two, three, five years from now…听

Elianna: Mm…听

Anne: I’ll be leaving Oregon and going to a different state. I’ll be moving to a better support system than I expect to have in two, three, four, five years. My support system here is getting older and they’re eventually gonna die on me, or become so ill that they just can’t help me anymore. So, I will not be… staying in Oregon forever. So, I decided let me open it in Illinois to begin with.听

Lara: Oh, yeah…听

Anne: So, it’s definitely not within my bank.听

Lara: Yeah. Okay.

Anne: I probably should have checked to see if… my credit union could have opened an ABLE Account for me, but I don’t know that they can.听

Lara: I didn’t know about the state delineation of it. Um-听

Anne: Well, not all states have that, but we live in a state that does.听

Lara: Interesting. Well, I do know that Oregon, more than other states– not more than all other states– but more than some other states, is more invested in, um-听

Anne: Its own resources?听

Lara: Public health in general. But, yeah. In state-led resources. So…

Anne: Yeah. Well, Illinois is one of those states that says there are some tax incentives and some benefits to having an ABLE Account in Illinois and living in Illinois. But, if you don’t live in Illinois, we’re not gonna say, “You can’t have an ABLE Account here.”.听

Lara: Yeah.听

Anne: So, knowing that, that was my state of residence to come-听

Lara: Yeah.

Anne: And since they don’t have those rules, I said, “Let me open an ABLE Account in Illinois to begin with, so that when it comes time to move, that’s one less thing I have to worry about. How am I gonna close out my Oregon ABLE Account and open an Illinois ABLE Account? No, let’s just open it in the state I know I-”听

Lara: Yeah

Anne: “am going to in the first place.”听

Lara: That makes a lot of sense.听

Anne: So, an ABLE Account is a savings account that you can have several thousand dollars, and is not something that the government can cut your benefits because of.听

Lara: Sure.听

Anne: The initial question was what are ABLE Accounts for people who have never heard of them.

Lara: Yeah. So, it’s an option for other uses. A common use is one of the main impetus behind it; was saving for the ability to retire. That’s not often… Like, h- 401Ks, I think, and IRAs will count against your benefits, but an ABLE Account won’t, so it’s more beneficial in terms of saving for retirement, as everyone should be entitled to do.

Anne: Right. And again, neither Lauren, nor I, have any certification or extensive knowledge on finances, so-听

Lara: Yeah…听

Anne: Check with your financial planner.听

Lara: Most banks have somebody who will… They want you to put your money at their bank, so they will usually work with you to try and figure out how to do that in my experience. I’m personally a bigger fan of credit unions than banks. But, uh-听

Anne: That’s wh- that’s where I bank, at a credit union, and I didn’t ask them if they could, if they have ABLE accounts. Anyway, I think we kinda already answered this. Were ABLE Accounts always available? If not, what did people do?听

Lara: Oh, yeah. In 2014 is when ABLE Accounts were signed into law, which is right about when I started working at L’Arche, actually. But, we still had to… Be mindful of not having a certain amount in the checking account. Most of the core members didn’t have an ABLE account at the time, because it was still fairly new. So, it’s been about, I guess, 12 years, and there’s a lot more infrastructure around it now. Also, probably, a lot more bureaucracy. But, it sounds like you were able to set one up in Illinois without too much difficulty.听

Anne: I personally was. I hope other people can go through it that quickly. There’s a question later on about challenges; but, obviously, they weren’t always available. And, when they didn’t have ABLE accounts, they just had to go through that mess of, “Oh, man, I’ve got too much money. The government pulled my benefits. Well, now I need them again.”. So, now I gotta go through that overwhelming and time-consuming, challenging thing of, “Uh, hello, government. I know I had $3,000 last month, but now I’m down to $300. Can you, like, acknowledge that and help me out?”.听

Lara: Yeah.听

Anne: What a mess.听

Lara: Yeah, for sure. Some of the workarounds before ABLE Accounts included things like trusts or, in the case of one person I knew, a Medical Trust that exclusively paid for them to have premium insurance on top of Medicaid. But, those are a lot more complex to operate and to get-听

Anne: You definitely need a financial planner when you try to do those things.听

Lara: Yes, I think you have to have an executor and then you’re going to a financial planner and a lawyer.听

Anne: And a lawyer, yes! You helped me make the decision to open my ABLE Account. Have you advised other people besides me about ABLE Accounts? I don’t want you to betray anyone’s confidence, but can you tell me anything about how they realized their plan, which did not include an ABLE Account, wasn’t going to work? I think you’ve kind of answered that already.听

Lara: The short answer is “no”. I haven’t really advised anybody about it before. I was just aware of it, because it was coming into being while I was working with people with disabilities. Talking to you was the first time that was, like, relevant information for me to share with someone.听

Anne: But, you, in your job at L’Arche, you opened accounts for people and-听

Lara: Mm, I did not, no.

Anne: Oh, you didn’t? Okay.

Lara: Uh, no. Someone else was responsible for that. Um-听

Anne: You just sort of watched it happen. You watched, uh-听

Lara: Well, I watched the law pass, and I watched the conversation around the rights and needs of people who are receiving some kind of income from disability.听

Anne: Okay. So, you kinda- it was happening while you were there, and you kinda kept your finger on the pulse of it. Because, you were like, “Hey, I work with people who really need this.”.

Lara: Yeah.听

Anne: But, by the time they got theirs, if they got theirs, you weren’t a part of it.听

Lara: No, not the details. Um, that wasn’t really my… We had the benefit of being in a place like L’Arche; is they have their own financial planner and the institution has someone who does the finance stuff. And, I really more managed finances on the individual level of, like, “Hey, this is how much we have to spend this month.”.听

Anne: Or, we have to spend more. They’ve got $2,300. We really need to spend-听

Lara: Or like, what, what, what big purchase do you want?听

Anne: Yeah. Right.听

Lara: Um-听

Anne: What have you always wanted, and it’s always been too expensive for you? Let’s get it for you. ‘Cause, we gotta spend $1,300 here before the government realizes you have $2,300.听

Lara: Right. Right. Exactly. It didn’t happen often, but it did happen often enough for me to be aware that, that was… Uh, a problem… an important metric.听

Anne: Yeah. Have you heard that people have run into challenges trying to open an ABLE Account? And, if so, what might they have been? I think you kinda alluded to this earlier.听

Lara: Yeah. My understanding is that not every state has an ABLE program. But, you are able to, like in your case, there are some international or just some nationally based ABLE programs, or you can open one in another state nearby.

Anne: Yeah, I believe the state that I will be moving to is run by the National ABLE Alliance. So, I don’t think they have their own state ABLE Account Service. Well, I think they do, but it’s not based in Illinois. It’s based in… Wherever the National ABLE Alliance is.听

Lara: So, some banks, from what I understand; I think PNC, Fifth Third, have national ABLE accounts. Like I said, banks want you to give them your money, so they don’t usually make that part very hard. Especially, now, that there has been this… Uh, the- legally the ways have been cleared, so that you’re not being penalized for saving if you do that. So, it sounds like your process went easier. I think being able to; like, for instance, people who don’t have the ability or easy access to computers, that would be a big barrier for a lot of people.

Anne: Or, even if they did have access to a computer, they could get on the internet and If they don’t have a well enough developed mind, due to an intellectual disability; a person with a developmental disability who might have the mind of a 10-year-old when they’re 20… Can that brain comprehend any of this?

Lara: You know, there’s… It’s so difficult to… I mean, there are metrics that professionals use to understand what someone’s perception level is. But, in my experience, you are, kind of, guessing most of the time.听

Anne: Yeah.听

Lara: The people that I worked with; there’s a wide array of different kinds of understanding. So, like, there’s emotional intelligence, there’s… Like, I’m not good at math. Not to diminish the difficulties, but a lot of people can’t get through any of these processes without help. What that help looks like varies and, whether or not, there is comprehension would be pretty difficult to say.

Anne: Even if they understood it, they probably need help and support that they’re doing the right thing, or to make it happen, and-听

Lara: Yeah…听

Anne: if someone doesn’t have a good support system then that could-听

Lara: That certainly that could be a barrier-

Anne: be a problem.听

Lara: Yeah.听

Anne: So, do you have any advice for anyone else considering opening an ABLE Account?

Lara: I just think it’s really important that people know they’re out there, ’cause when I talked to you, you weren’t aware and they’ve been out there for 12 years, and it’s an important resource to have. Personally, took me a while to get around to actually saving for retirement. It’s not something that I think a lot of people, my age and younger… think about very often. And, everybody could benefit from it. Just because, maybe, when you’re 70 or 80, or whatever, you could still work doesn’t mean you should have to.

Anne: Right. There comes a time when you’re getting older, getting a little bit… Your health is getting a little bit more delicate. What are you gonna do? Drop dead at work? Because-听

Lara: Yeah, yeah… Or, do you want your life to be work all the time, you know? Some people have things they wanna do. So, having the ability to save– I think– is an essential resource to have. Even if it’s just a little bit.听

Anne: Personally, my advice to people, who are on benefits and have a disability, is certainly consider opening an ABLE Account. Talk to a financial planner. Talk to someone.听

Lara: Yeah, yeah.

Anne: Consider opening it. I can’t tell you to do it, or not. That’s your decision. But-听

Lara: Yeah…听

Anne: my understanding is, a lot of our listeners are college students. I don’t wanna see you go through all the work of graduating college and then setting out to make your dreams come true, getting that great job that’s in your field, and then all of a sudden you start saving up, you start making money, and the government says, “You know what? You’ve got way too much money for us to continue funding you.” . You count on that health insurance; is that really where you wanna have to spend your money? I mean, you have the right to make that decision. If you’re okay with private pay health insurance, go for it. But, if you would really rather have a place to save money without having to worry about, am I gonna lose my caregiver? Am I gonna lose my Medicaid? Am I gonna lose my food stamps? Am I gonna lose my SSI or SSDI?… Opening an ABLE Account, in my opinion is the best.听

Lara: You have that right and you deserve that right, for sure. The world out there, in particular, in our culture, there is a big gap between when you can get resources and when you have enough money to acquire those resources on your own. And, this is one of the things and there should be many more. But, this is one of the things that can help bridge that gap. We should all have opportunities to save, even if it’s just for something fun.听

Anne: You have a right to decide what you wanna do with your money.听

Lara: Yeah.

Anne: Finally, is there anything that I haven’t asked that you want to make sure that people hear about ABLE Accounts?听

Lara: I mean, look into it. Just do what you can to look into it. Like I said, most banks wanna take your money, so go to a bank and say, “Hey, how can I do this?”. “Fifth Third” and “Fidelity” also will do it. “PNC” are some national banks that have these these savings programs. But, it is worth it.听

Anne: Yeah.听

Lara: And you deserve it!听

Anne: Well, thank you for your time, Lara, and we-听

Lara: Thank you.

Anne: we look forward to it helping a lot of people, as they look at their futures, and realize that they may well end up with more money than the government wants them to have. Well, it’s not the government’s decision, it’s yours. So, yeah…听

Lara: Well, the government has-

Anne: The government has the right to make that decision if you have a lot of assets, but this is why, I believe, you should consider putting those assets in a place where you can’t end up in that situation. Like an ABLE account, or a trust or-听

Lara: For sure.

Anne: The way for us to protect our autonomy around what we do with our money is; consider an ABLE account, consider some kind of trust. Because, even if they are based at a national bank versus a state level; all states have an ABLE Account program of some kind. So-听

Lara: Not all of them do. There’s at least 10 that don’t have their own ABLE Program. So, if you’re in one of those states, you can access the national options. But, most states do have their own program as well. So, you can do a local version if you want. I know I like to bank local, so…

Anne: All right. Well, thanks again, and it’s been great talking to you about this.听

Lara: Thank you.

Outro

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham and Miri Newman

 

Show Intro and Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Meet the Hosts

Zoe: Hi, everyone! My name’s Zoe, and welcome to the third episode of A Slice of Life! Today, I’ve got guest hosting with us again, Kuma, because they’re going to help introduce a new miniseries on Crockpot Meals. Kuma’s taught me everything I know about Crockpot meals. And with that, I’ll let them just explain a little bit about what a Crockpot is.听

Kuma: Hi, I’m Kuma. So, Crock-Pots are a really great kitchen appliance that involves slow-cooking something all day long, even if you’re out and about. The nice thing about this is you can plug it in and they typically only have low or high settings. So, it’s really easy just to keep it going all day long, especially if you’re a really busy person like I am. There are different Crock-Pots that allow for multiple different settings as well, which is really cool. But, a Crock-Pot is just a really great modern invention for people that wanna slow-cook meals all day long if they don’t have the time to be at home all day. In my family, we did a lot of Sunday Roasts and stuff like that. Sunday Roasts are typically done in a giant stew pot that sits all day long. You boil it for a little bit, and then you bake it at a really low temperature. So, a Crock-Pot is kind of a nice bridge between that onto just like all-day cooking?听

Today’s Crockpot Recipe

Zoe: That’s wonderful. I’m really glad to hear that. Now, before you started teaching me cooking, cooking safety, and kitchen appliances, I didn’t even know what a Crockpot was. So, what kind of meals can we make in the Crockpot, and what are we making today?

Kuma: You can do a lot of things in a Crockpot. I personally just love doing roasts in Crockpots. I know a lot of people who do stews. You can do braised meat. I’ve heard of some people doing ribs, as well. I’ve heard of other people doing chicken and dumpling soup, or rice dishes even.

Zoe: That is true and, I have to say, the last time you made pot roast, you left it slow-cooking for an entire day and, gosh, that meat fell right off the bone, didn’t it?听

Kuma: It did! Yes! So, today what we’ve done is something really simple that I grew up on. It’s a 13 bean mix with pork haunches. So, pork-听

Zoe: Ham hocks?听

Kuma: Yeah, ham hocks. Wow, thank you! I added onion, bell pepper, a chili pepper, and then some Swiss Chard in there, and then also some cumin, bay leaf, coriander, salt and pepper, oregano, and a splash of lemon juice.听

Zoe: Now, all those ingredients; you can find the recipe and list of ingredients below on the same web-page or the page that you’re viewing this episode on. But, it seems so difficult. All those ingredients, all those seasonings. Once you prep all those ingredients, what do you do then?听

Kuma: Oh, you just put it in the pot. You add water.

Zoe: It’s that easy?听

Kuma: Yeah. I love adding some extra bouillon base in there. I forgot garlic. Add garlic too. I use bouillon base. I find it gives a bit of a more earthy flavor and then the bay leaf really just enhances that. The lemon juice, that acidity, really just helps those flavors pop even more.听

Zoe: Yeah! I was wondering, ’cause usually you have a little bit of sour in things like cocktails or in noodle dishes, like Pad Thai. But, how does the sour contribute to the soup here? I imagine it’s sort of similar to being like a tomato, where it accentuates the sweet and the savory as well.听

Kuma: Yeah, it does. So, the Swiss chard is typically a, pretty savory green.听

Zoe: Oh, that is true.听

Kuma: So, having a bit of lemon juice in there can help flavors like that come out. Especially with bell peppers also being slightly sweet in general. It’s a good enhancement.听

Zoe: And this lemon juice container that we got; it’s like, two quarts, we got at Costco. How much did we get it for?

Kuma: I don’t remember…听

Zoe: Oh, gosh. I think it was only six bucks at the time. It’s lasted a really long time, so it’s very economical. If you wanna splash up your meals; just a little bit of lemon juice really helps to bring out the sweetness, the savory. It’s so good!听

Kuma: Yeah!听

Zoe: So, you’ve loaded all your ingredients into the slow cooker, stirred in your seasonings, your water, your bouillon base, and you’ve just started it at low heat. Is it just as simple as that?

Kuma: Yep.听

Zoe: Okay. Well-听

Kuma: So, a low heat cook is good for, I would say, eight to 16 hours of cooking.听

Zoe: Ooh!听

Kuma: High heat would be four hours, or less.听

Zoe: Well, it’s just as easy as that. So, we’ve got our cooker here. How long has this soup been in the Crockpot and cooking?听

Kuma: Since 6:30 this morning.听

Zoe: Oh, and it’s around…

Kuma: 7:00 PM.

Zoe: Oh, it’s 7:00? So, it’s been 12 and a half hours! I bet that meat is gonna fall right off the bone. If you lift the lid, how does it smell? And, what’s the meat like?听

Kuma: Well, I need a spoon for that!听

Zoe: Yeah, it’s always good to taste your food so you can adjust your seasonings.听

Kuma: Ooh! Okay, okay! It’s nice and beany? It’s nice and beany. The ham hock has definitely fallen off the bone and, the nice part too is, there’s little bits of fat, still. So, it’s slowly simmering into that broth, so it’s gonna add just a touch of pork fat sweetness to it.听

Zoe: Yeah, that flavor, that lovely pork flavor!

Kuma: Yeah. So, let’s see.听

Zoe: If you’re worried about the fat, you can always skim that off too, off the surface and whatnot. How is it? How does it taste?听

Kuma: I feel like it could use a little bit more salt听

Zoe: Perfect. That’s what tasting and seasonings are for.听

Kuma: Can you give me the salt and pepper, please?

Zoe: Oh, 100%. We got us here, nothing too crazy, just a simple salt shaker and pepper grinder. But, if you have these seasonings, you can just, you can really spice up any dish. But, I don’t have to tell you that.听

Kuma: Okay. Oh, that’s much better. You wanna try it?听

Zoe: Sure!听

Kuma: Okay.

Zoe: Oh! You can really taste the pork. It’s got that earthiness from the bay leaf and the beans. The lemon juice really helps balance out the flavors. That is a fantastic soup! So, as we wait for this to finish simmering and cooling down; this could really use a side!

Kuma: It could!听

Making the Buttermilk Biscuits

Zoe: I mean, the Crockpot was just so simple. You toss everything in and we slow cooked it for 12 and a half hours. We have the meal and we didn’t even invest too much effort into it! What kind of side do you think would go well with this, though?听

Kuma: Well, if we’re going to Kuma’s childhood; Buttermilk Biscuits.听

Zoe: I’ve always thought Buttermilk Biscuits were really hard to make. I tried making biscuits and gravy once, and it turned out horrible!听

Kuma: Well, did you use store-bought biscuits?听

Zoe: I did not. Oh. I tried making my own biscuits, and they came out flat as a pancake.听

Kuma: Do you know how to bake?听

Zoe: Mostly only what you’ve taught me.听

Kuma: Okay! So, nothing wrong with store-bought biscuits.听

Zoe: That is true.听

Kuma: That is true. I love them. They’re so soft and fluffy. I think people find the gravy part to be the part that is the most challenging, and it’s really the biscuits if you’re going for making everything from scratch.

Zoe: Ah. Um- There’s a real big difference in a mediocre biscuit and a flaky biscuit that just blows your mind.听

Kuma: So, Buttermilk Biscuits are really easy to make, at least in my opinion.听

Zoe: You sure about that?听

Kuma: Yes! You’re talking to the baker in the household. I will say a piece of information that I really appreciate having, and always will share, is that you can actually buy powdered Buttermilk.听

Zoe: Ooh.听

Kuma: Yeah. You can buy powdered Buttermilk. Because in stores they typically only sell buttermilk in, uh-

Zoe: In the cartons.

Kuma: Yeah. “In the quart”?听

Zoe: “By the quart”, yeah.听

Kuma: Yeah, they don’t do anything like a pint or anything less than that. They only do quarts. So, you have a whole bunch of buttermilk then that’s gonna go bad.听

Zoe: That’s true, yeah…

Kuma: So, what are you gonna do with it? You’re just gonna make a whole bunch of biscuits? Not everyone wants biscuits all the time. It’s whatever. So, I use this brand called The Sacco Pantry, and it’s Cultured Buttermilk Blend.

Zoe: Ooh!听

Kuma: And, it’s specified specifically for cooking and baking. Now, the thing with this is after you open it, you need to store it in the fridge.听

Zoe: That is true.听

Kuma: So, I’ve already prepped it. That goes back in the fridge. So, for buttermilk biscuits we need three-quarters liquid cup, buttermilk. Not a dry measuring cup. You need a liquid measuring cup.听

Zoe: Mm-hmm.听

Kuma: You need two cups all-purpose flour, two teaspoons baking powder, half a teaspoon baking soda, a little bit of sugar, seven tablespoons of cold butter. Not frozen, cold. So, refrigerated.听

Zoe: Now, first of all, that sounds like a lot of butter. But, second, why should it be cold and not frozen or room temperature?听

Kuma: So, frozen, it’s not actually gonna curl into the pea shape nodules that we want. By having it refrigerated and cold, it’s still malleable in our fingertips. Which is really important. So we’ll get more product dispersing throughout the biscuits. If you had it room temperature, it’s just gonna melt.听

Zoe: Gotcha.听

Kuma: And that’s not what we want for Buttermilk Biscuits.

Zoe: These ingredients and the recipe can be found on this same page where you’re viewing the episode. But, the type of butter; I guess, I will leave that up to you. Because, Kuma and I like to use a very specific kind of butter!听

Kuma: Yes. Okay, so what we’re gonna do is you’re gonna take a mixing bowl. I would say for any bread product you are making; whether it be cake, whether it’s biscuits, bread, bagels, all your dry ingredients should be sieved through first into the mixing bowl.听

Zoe: Now, why would you sift all those ingredients into the mixing bowl?听

Kuma: It removes the clumps. So, say you bought donuts at the store, and you’re very excited about these donuts, and you bite into a donut that you really were anticipating, and you just get a mouthful of pure flour.听

Zoe: Ugh! That’s horrible!听

Kuma: Just pure flour in your donut. But, everything else is fine. You just bit into a spot with pure flour. That’s what we don’t want to happen.听

Zoe: Ah! So, by sifting it we avoid things like that.听

Kuma: Yes. So, a sift has a mesh screen on it as well. It’s really nice to use them. I have a really basic one that I bought from Safeway years ago that I use. I use it for all my baking. So, any sugar, flour, if it’s going into a huge dry mix, I’m using the sieve.听

Zoe: And you can use it for so many other things too. Draining vegetables, pasta. A very simple one is cheap, easy to buy, and you can take it home and use it for everything, basically.听

Kuma: Yep!听

Zoe: That’s a lot of what the podcast is about. Simple, delicious meals at a very affordable price that you can make at home.听

Kuma: Okay, so we’re pouring in the flour. One cup. Two cup. Now leave the measuring spoon in the flour container, ’cause we’re gonna need a little bit more later on when we roll out the dough.听

Zoe: Now, here’s a question for you. I have a friend who, despite trying her best to make like a bread on a bread show, has always been really experimental. So, she uses things like cake flour or mixing in whole wheat flour. What are all these other “flours” and why would we use “all purpose” rather than those flours in this specific biscuit. Because, her bread has been not great recently.听

Kuma: Oh, I wish you could see the look on my face right now. So, it has to do with the gluten and protein content within the flour itself. All purpose flour has a pretty solid baseline on the protein, in the flour itself. Meaning you can use it for a lot of different things. If you want cake flour; I believe it has less protein in it. That’s specifically for if you’re making cakes. There’s pastry flour as well. There’s bread flour, which I always go for when I’m making a loaf of bread. Because, I believe it has a higher protein content in it. Whole wheat flour has a very short shelf life, as well. But, it has a very particular use, and that’s if you’re making sourdough starter, actually.

Zoe: Oh, I see!

Kuma: Or if you wanna make whole wheat bread. It’s best to keep that refrigerated, or in the freezer before you use it and after you use it. But, I would say your friend should stop.听

Zoe: They should. Yeah, we’ve been trying to tell her to stop, but she doesn’t listen!听

Kuma: Well, that is her prerogative then. I would say, though, mixing cake flour and whole wheat flour is a very bad idea.听

Zoe: Yeah. As evidenced by her many failed attempts.听

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re adding in the baking powder. So, that’s two teaspoons.听

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: There we go. Then we’re gonna be adding in the baking soda, which is half a teaspoon. Then the sugar, which is a teaspoon.听

Zoe: And these are all easy, simple ingredients that you can get and store at home.听

Kuma: Yep! Keep them in bulk.听

Zoe: Yeah! Just like a run to Costco or the chef store, you’re set.听

Kuma: Yep. Now we’re sieving those dry ingredients into our flour.

Zoe: Okay. Okay. Oh, yeah, getting those clumps out and removing the impurities. For all you listening, for context, Kuma’s been my guide, cooking role model, and teacher for a while and around here; I don’t really know anyone outside of professional bakers really that can rival Kuma’s bread making. Kuma’s bread baking skills are legendary around here!听

Kuma: You know, I still have a lot to learn.听

Zoe: See, that’s the mark of a true bread lover, though! Because, no matter what, there’s always more to learn.听

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re adding in the butter. So, slice up your butter. We need the seven tablespoons of cold butter. You slice it up, ’cause we’re gonna be working with one tablespoon at a time.听

Zoe: Working it into that mixture. Okay.听

Kuma: Yes. Don’t be afraid to get your hands dirty when it comes to baking, unless it’s a cake. You’re probably gonna be getting your hands dirty.听

Zoe: Now, here’s the thing, though. If you’ve never kneaded dough or you’ve never really gotten your hands in there. I tell you, the first time I kneaded dough for bread, it was magical. It felt almost like the dough was alive.听

Kuma: Yeah, that’s the point! So, drop a tablespoon of butter into your flour and you’re gonna be pinching it in between your fingertips, okay? So, you’re rubbing your fingertips together, and it’s gonna slowly break up.听

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: You’re gonna do that until you’re all finished with the butter, so all seven tablespoons are in the dough itself.听

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: You’ll find that the dough, in and of itself, kind of becomes a little bit more congealed together. Maybe a little bit darker in color by just a shade.听

Zoe: I see. I see.

Kuma: Tablespoon three.听

Zoe: Ooh, very nice. When you’re working with these mixtures, really use your eyes and use your sense of touch to work it in because even without vision, even without the sense of smell for me, even just going by touch; master those skills. Master feeling how the mixture should feel.

Kuma: Okay, tablespoon four. You want it to be cold butter. Refrigerated butter. Otherwise, it’s gonna melt too quickly.听

Zoe: Now, if it melts too quickly, what will that do to the biscuits? I can imagine-听

Kuma: It wouldn’t make it fluffy.听

Zoe: Ah!… That’s probably what happened to me then! I remember using room temperature butter that I got last time.听

Kuma: Yeah, don’t do that. In some recipes it is great to be using room temperature butter, or sometimes even melted butter. It really depends on the recipe that you’re following. Okay. Now, I will say, baking is more of a science than an art. Okay, tablespoon five of butter. So, you need to be very precise in baking. I would say follow the recipe for baking as closely as possible until you get a hang in the kitchen and you feel really confident in your skills.

Zoe: Now that makes a whole lot of sense. For me, the lesson especially has to be that even though things taste good together, that doesn’t always mean that the flavor profiles match. Like this soup here is so simple but so delicious. After I left home and I was on my own, didn’t know what to do, striking it out in the world for the first time really, this was actually the first meal that Kuma served to me and offered to me, after we had first met. So, I look at this meal with a lot of nostalgia. It was so warm, comforting, and just absolutely delicious!听

Kuma: Okay, now we’re on tablespoon six. Also, yes, this was the first meal I gave you, and I thought you were-听

Zoe: I think I cried!听

Kuma: Yeah, I thought you were a little bit crazy when you started crying!

Zoe: Listen! Good food is close to the heart!听

Kuma: Bear in mind, we both know we have very different upbringings when it comes to food and everything. But, for me this is peak childhood. This is poor kid meal that we have, and you don’t even need to use ham hocks. You can use stew meat-听

Zoe: Oh, yeah…听

Kuma: chuck roast, even. Well, stew meat is just chuck roast chopped up.听

Zoe: Weren’t we thinking about beef shank, or something else this time?听

Kuma: Yeah, beef shank, yeah! You can use beef shank, too!听

Zoe: What about like chicken breast or like maybe even chicken tenderloins or thighs?

Kuma: Yeah, as long as you chop it up. You can totally use the bones in there if you wanna add a little bit of extra flavor profile.听

Zoe: Some of the, like nutrition from the bones.听

Kuma: Turkey leg.听

Zoe: Oh, yeah, turkey leg! That’s true!听

Kuma: Giblets…

Zoe: You can slow cook the bones afterwards to make like a stock as well. If you’re vegetarian that’s still no problem at all. You can remove the meat, add in substitutes. Because, at the end of the day the only thing that was non-vegetarian was just the meat.听

Kuma: Okay, now I’ve added tablespoon seven. So, it’s a little bit more crumbly now. But, it’s still holding together.听

Zoe: Ah, I see. What does it mean if it’s crumbly, but starting to like fall apart?听

Kuma: Well, that’s the thing. With buttermilk biscuits that’s kind of how you want the dough to be, with the dry ingredients, before you add in the buttermilk.听

Zoe: Ah, gotcha!听

Kuma: If that makes sense?

Zoe: Yeah, ’cause I think another thing too was that I overworked my dough last time and I used the room temperature, thawed butter. So, I think that those were the two primary things contributing to why these turned out so bad!

Kuma: Yeah, I would say, again, just follow the recipe as closely as possible until you actually feel confident in what you’re doing.听

Zoe: That is true. To any new kneaders of dough out there, it is good to knead the dough well, but definitely don’t overwork it, otherwise you start to break down the gluten in the dough, and it turns out just yucky and flat.听

Kuma: Yep!听

Zoe: So, work it well, but don’t work it too hard!听

Kuma: Exactly! Okay. So, now we have it all ready. Now we’re gonna add in the Buttermilk. Remember, I prepped this earlier. So, if you’re using fresh buttermilk, go ahead. We only need a three-quarters cup Buttermilk. Pour that into the dough. Well, the dry ingredients, that has the butter in it. Now, we’re gonna mix it all together into a soggy dough. This is where you’re getting your hands dirty!

Zoe: Does this recipe use eggs?听

Kuma: Nope!听

Zoe: Oh, wow. That’s a plus for all you people like me who are allergic to eggs out there!听

Kuma: Now, your hands are gonna get really dirty.听

Zoe: Yes, they are!听

Kuma: That’s perfectly okay. Don’t be afraid of it. I promise you it’s fine.听

Zoe: This is cooking. If your hands aren’t getting dirty, you’re doing it wrong! Now granted, a clean workstation and do your best to keep things tidy.听

Kuma: Could you get me a knife real quick?听

Zoe: Yeah, sure

Kuma: Scrape down my fingers.听

Zoe: Oh, okay. Let me get you- This one’s nice and dull.听

Kuma: No, it is not!听

Zoe: Not this one? Okay…听

Kuma: No! That’s a kitchen block knife, to scrape down my fingers?

Zoe: Oh, you’re scraping down your fingers? Oh, I’m sorry. Here, let me get you like this-听

Kuma: Whoa!

Zoe: Let me get you a spoon. Why would you ask for a knife?!

Kuma: ‘Cause the knife works just fine! Oh, my God, it almost had me!听

Zoe: Sorry, I thought you were scraping down something else. I didn’t realize that you were scraping down your fingers. Then I proceed to hand you like this foot-long kitchen knife!听

Kuma: Yeah. That’s a good way of hurting yourself in the kitchen, okay? Don’t do that.听

Zoe: Kitchen safety, everyone! Make sure that you’re careful with your utensils, and especially if you’re going to try this recipe. Make sure your slow cooker is somewhere where it’s safe. It can’t easily be exposed to water, it can’t cause any fires. ‘Cause safety first, everyone!

Kuma: Goodness, almost had me!听

Zoe: I did almost have you- …

Kuma: Chop off my fingers!

Zoe: I’m sorry! I’m sorry! I’m sorry! But, yeah, flavor profiles and good combinations! Even if it’s simple, as long as the flavor profiles really connect, it means that it’s gonna be absolutely delicious.听

Kuma: Do you wanna try my weird trick for the dough?

Zoe: No, not right now. I’m not encouraging students to…听

Kuma: Okay, okay, okay. Okay, fine! We’ll cut that part out!听

Zoe: Yeah, we cut that part out. Sorry, I don’t wanna encourage students to do so!听

Kuma: We can all be weird together!听

Zoe: Yeah, Kuma has this odd little trick the way that they test dough and-听

Kuma: It works out perfect! Okay?! Every time!听

Zoe: They taste the dough!听

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re pouring some flour onto our workbench.听

Zoe: Okay!听

Kuma: All-purpose flour. We are plopping the dough straight on there.听

Zoe: And, your workspace is just a counter, right? So, you’re just pouring it on the counter?听

Kuma: I put it on a cutting board.

Zoe: Ah, gotcha! Yeah, ’cause I know people do it on a counter, a clean cutting board. If you’re doing it on a surface, like your counter, then make sure you sanitize it well.听

Kuma: Yep. Okay, so now we’re gonna slowly be pressing the dough down. It’s still gonna be a bit soggy. Which is totally okay. So, think of it as like a half solid paste. We’re not gonna overwork it too much, but we still want it to be like a solid thing. So, that’s why I said keep the flour out. ‘Cause we still want this to hold its shape.

Zoe: Ham Hock and Green Soup plus Buttermilk Biscuits. So simple, but so delicious. Sometimes the simplest things are the best! It’s the reason why everyone loves their barbecue chicken pizza! I would tell y’all the kind of pizza I ordered yesterday, but Kuma can’t cover their ears and also I’m pretty sure they would hate me for telling y’all.

Kuma: Maybe we should not take you to any buffets or anything like that.听

Zoe: That’s probably for the best. Last time I went to a Chinese Buffet, I made this amazing smorgasbord of all sorts of vegetables, meats, and topped it all off with chocolate and tapioca puddings. Oh! And a banana with red sauce on top, with strawberry sauce. So, it was kind of like a meal, dessert all in one. It was like-听

Kuma: That sounds-听

Zoe: It was like awful benefits …听

Kuma: That sounds like a stomach ache waiting to happen.听

Zoe: No regrets!听

Kuma: Okay. Well, that’s you… I’m sure you had some regrets.听

Zoe: The only thing I regretted was not putting more of that delicious teriyaki chicken on there.

Kuma: Okay, so now the dough is starting to firm up after we’ve been kneading it on our floured surface. If you have some of the dough sticking to your surface you can easily just wipe it up with your fingers and knead it back into the rest of the dough.听

Zoe: We don’t wanna waste any of this lovely dough, do we?

Kuma: No, we do not! At this point, it’s still a very soft dough. You can easily mold it.听

Zoe: Is it tacky, or is it starting to become more of a just soft and buttery? I don’t know how best to describe it!听

Kuma: I would say “tacky”.听

Zoe: “Tacky”. More so tacky?听

Kuma: Like sticky tacky, right?听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah!听

Kuma: So, it can still hold its shape and it’s still moldable.听

Zoe: Yeah. All right, I got you! I got you!听

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re going to…听

Zoe: And see, I worked it past that point last time, so I definitely overworked it.

Kuma: Yeah, we don’t want that. We’re going to pat this into a rectangle on the board, or as much of a rectangle as you can get. You can use the heels of your hands.听

Zoe: Okay. Would you use a roller or like a-听

Kuma: Yeah, you can!听

Zoe: Yeah, you can even use your forearm as a roller, I guess you could also do it that way.

Kuma: Uh… I wouldn’t suggest it. But, yeah…听

Zoe: I guess you can get your forearm nice and dirty, so yeah! Just use your hand!听

Kuma: So, now we have a rectangle. You’re going to fold one end of the dough over into thirds. You’re gonna do three rolls of the dough.听

Zoe: Okay, three rolls.

Kuma: I am going to be taking my rolling pin. I’m gonna be adding a little bit of flour to it.听

Zoe: Just to make sure the dough doesn’t stick?听

Kuma: Yeah, just a tiny little bit. And, I’m gonna roll out the dough. While this is all happening, make sure your oven is preheated to 450 degrees.听

Zoe: Nice and hot, I see.听

Kuma: It is, yes!听

Zoe: And, remember, careful with hot ovens. You wanna make sure that there’s no things to dry in the oven, or you keep other materials in the oven, make sure they’re all out of there. We don’t want anything burning.听

Kuma: Yeah. We’ve rolled out our dough. Try and get it to, I would say, half an inch thick. Now you’re going to cut out the biscuits. Now, if you’re somebody who doesn’t have a lot of baking gadgets; you can use, if you have, small drinking cups that are two inches in “circumference”. Or, not “circumference”, “diameter”. Diameter,听

Zoe: Diameter.听

Kuma: You can easily add a little bit of flour to that rim and use it to punch out the biscuits.

Zoe: That’s actually brilliant! Why did I never think of that?听

Kuma: I have biscuit and cookie cutters. So, I’m gonna use that. And again, I’m gonna add flour to that.听

Zoe: Ooh, okay, okay.听

Kuma: Just a little bit. So, the oven is preheated. We’re cutting out our biscuits. There will definitely be leftover dough from the biscuits, which is okay. ‘Cause you can easily roll that back up and use it to make more biscuits.听

Zoe: That is very true. Just roll it up. And would you press it out with a rolling pin again?

Kuma: Yeah. I would do that, yeah.听

Zoe: Okay, yeah. ‘Cause, last time I didn’t even press it out with a rolling pin. I just squished it with my hands.

Kuma: Well, I mean, you can. But, there’s nothing quite like fresh biscuits.听

Zoe: There’s a reason that my biscuits came out awful, and I’m assuming your biscuits here are gonna turn out spectacular.听

Kuma: So, now we have our pan. We’re gonna spray down our pan a little bit.听

Zoe: Is this a muffin pan, or is this just a regular baking sheet?

Kuma: Just a regular baking sheet.听

Zoe: Oh, wow. So, cheap, easy to buy. If you keep it clean and put one of those- What are the wax things on the bottom called?听

Kuma: Oh, Silicone Baking Mats?听

Zoe: Yeah! Yeah, silicone baking mats. It makes the cleanup so easy, and it makes it so you don’t burn food to your baking sheets, and it really helps increase the longevity of them.

Kuma: Mm-hmm. But, spray it down with just a touch of oil. We don’t want the biscuits fully sticking. So, now we have those biscuits that are cut out and we’re gonna set them inside. So, in total, out of this dough, I have 10 biscuits. Out of this whole doughy dough. Those will expand too, so make sure they have room to expand.听

Zoe: 10 biscuits, that’s a lot of biscuits. But, they are delicious! My guide dog, Tucker, he’s a fun, goofy guy. But, he’s also kind of picky. He’s a very quiet dog, but the last time he barked was when Kuma’s focaccia bread was sitting on the counter and he saw it. I was standing nearby and he jumps like straight up into the air and goes, “Woof!”听

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: These days, whenever I’m cooking or whenever I’m doing something in the kitchen, he does not come and check it out. He’s just like, “No, thanks. I’m all good.” But, if Kuma’s in the kitchen doing anything arbitrary in the hopes of getting like a taste of their bread or a treat from them, they will sit right outside the kitchen and just watch.

Kuma: Should we tell the public about why he does that?听

Zoe: I would consider it a learning opportunity. So, yes. Now, we have a special name for our the meals that I make. I won’t say directly, but just know that they’re terrible! So, if it’s like a “Zoe Meal”, that means a certain thing. Because, when I first moved in to my new place and Kuma was teaching me cuisine and lending me their cookware and everything and being just an outstanding person. I was basically a complete cooking newbie. I didn’t know anything about it. I was under the impression that when you combine a lot of things that you really enjoy together, then they taste better together. For instance-听

Kuma: Which is not true all the time.听

Zoe: That is not true. A “Zoe Meal” is when you do something like; “I love Junior Mints and I love Hot Pockets. Let me put Junior Mints between these two Hot Pockets, microwave it so the Hot Pockets cook and the Junior Mints melt then together, and then put more over it so it’s like a chocolate confection with Hot Pockets in the center!”. I can tell you from a friend’s experience, it’s not very good.

Kuma: No. No… Okay, so we’ve rolled out our dough. We’ve cut out the biscuits. We’ve placed them on the pan. You’re gonna take a little bit, maybe a tablespoon max, of buttermilk, put it in a cup, and you’re gonna take like a little silicon cooking brush and brush the top of the biscuits with it.

Zoe: And, those brushes are just like a couple bucks.听

Kuma: Yeah. They’re really easy to buy. So, we’ll use them for cooking and baking. A lot of people use them when making barbecue. ‘Cause they’ll sop the sauce all over the meat. Okay, so now our oven is preheated. Everything is ready. We’re gonna take the pan and put it in the oven. Because I bake frequently, my recipes tend to just say the timeframe of, “bake until this color.” I will say that’s not for everyone and it depends on the oven you use as well. So, I would say, typically, 10 to 15 minutes or lightly browned on the top.听

Zoe: Lightly browned. I’m sure if you’ve ever had like a really nice crispy, flaky biscuit then you’ll know what it looks like. You don’t want it to go dark brown. Then it’s starting to burn!听

Kuma: Yep.

Zoe: Ooh, that heat!听

Kuma: Okay, so now that’s in the oven. Now we can clean up!听

Zoe: So, while you’re cleaning up, Kuma, you’ve told me a lot about the Crockpot Cooking, the biscuits. But, since you’ve been such an inspiration and taught me so much, I’d like to ask you some questions about; let’s say your background and what a Crockpot means to you.听

Kuma: Can I pull up this bowl first?听

Zoe: Yeah!听

Kuma: Okay, let me do that.

Zoe: That’s what the cleaning’s all about!听

Kuma: Then we can circle back to your questions, because I just dropped something and it made a loud noise. Let me do this real quick, okay? Plus that “dough bowl” has to soak.听

Zoe: If you’re cleaning, you can always soak the bowls and whatnot. I’m really thankful that you agreed to come and be a guest on this episode as well. Because, next week I’m planning to invite a guest on who will talk about what it’s like cooking and eating not only without vision, but with diabetes as well! It’ll be really interesting because she’s going to likely give us a recipe for a dessert. I’ve really never actually thought about what dessert would look like or what even shopping would look like without vision for someone who has to watch their sugar and calorie intake. So, it’s gonna be really amazing! But, for this week, Kuma, thank you for helping me start this miniseries on Crock-Pot meals! How much did you get this Crock-Pot for? I’ve always wondered.听

Kuma: Oh, I bought it used, so I spent less than $10 on it from Goodwill.听

Zoe: That’s so nice. It could be a little bigger, but at the same time you can get one of these easily for 10/ 20 bucks from Goodwill. That’s amazing!听

Kuma: You can get bigger ones- So, this is a four-quart one. You can get a six-quart one. I think they sell ’em, at minimum, $30?听

Zoe: That’ll hold a lot of stuff. I know a friend who made Lamb Rogan Josh.听

Kuma: Ooh, yummy!听

Zoe: Yeah! It was really good in the slow cooker. ‘Cause they slow cooked the lamb neck until it was… Fall apart- You could have eaten it with a spoon, I tell you!听

Kuma: Give me the recipe! Please! I love a good lamb recipe!听

Zoe: Oh, goodness, yes! Just seasoning it to how you like. Tasting is always nice. So, can you tell me a little bit, while these buttermilk biscuits are slowly getting ready to be eaten, can you tell me a little bit about what Crock-Pots or like, you know, Crock-Pot cooking has meant to you growing up, and how they’ve influenced your life and how you see cooking?

Kuma: Kind of just what I said earlier about it being a good way for my family to make hot meals. I grew up with divorced family and a single parent taking care of me, working 12/14 hour shifts sometimes. So, him getting this all ready before he’s going to work, and I am his child who has to eat, and he has to eat too. It’s a good way of having a hot meal ready after a really long day.听

Zoe: That sounds so amazing. You were in the kitchen for not too long, and you prepped everything and just got it into the Crockpot, but it seemed so easy, and I was done. All I had to do was season. There was so little effort involved, but a big time investment. So, for you folks who are at home and you’re on the edge like, “I don’t know if I should.”, this can make such amazing meals. This can make a pot roast. You can make wonderful Indian Curry dishes. You can make this soup, other soups, things that need to pressure cook. When I tell you that really good slow-cooked pork comes out falling off the bone!听

Kuma: And that’s low heat-听

Zoe: That is low heat…听

Kuma: for a long time.听

Zoe: What was that place that we ordered from? Well, not ordered from. What was that place that we went to that was practically the best barbecue in Portland, I would even say! That’s a personal opinion, but still!听

Kuma: Reverend’s Barbecue.听

Zoe: That’s right, Reverend’s Barbecue. The pork ribs that he gave us, fell off the bone! It was so good!

Kuma: Where were we?听

Zoe: Yeah, you were talking about a hot meal, ’cause your dad would leave for work. You needed to eat, he needed to eat and this seems a lot healthier than taking even a Pasta Roni and just whipping it together; it seems so much easier than those frozen meals too, so much more nutritious.听

Kuma: It really just depends on who you are as a person. It’s totally up to you. I love a good soup. I love a good stew. Stew with a grain next to it. That’s the life for me.听

Zoe: Do you remember that time, that you and I went to one of my favorite childhood places back then, that I remember? I would come to Portland to play like table tennis, and sometimes afterwards, out of necessity, we would go shopping at this place called “Phu Bon” in Portland. Do you remember last time, Kuma, that you and I went to Phu Bon like about a month or so ago?听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: What did I get from the deli again? It was like a really delicious Banh Mi, right?听

Kuma: Oh! I think you got a like-听

Zoe: Like a Barbecue Pork Banh Mi?

Kuma: Yeah, I think it was barbecue pork, or it was some Marinated Pork Banh Mi.

Zoe: It was a really good meal, and it was only five/ six bucks, I think?听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: What did you get again? ‘Cause, I got so clapped by whatever you got!听

Kuma: So, folks, let’s bear in mind; Zoe cannot see anything!听

Zoe: Or smell. I have no sight and no smell-听

Kuma: Or smell. We were at the deli, and I looked down and I saw on their menu they had this thing called fish stew and it looked really good. Now, I would say maybe my definition of stew is a little bit different from theirs, which is perfectly fine. To each their own. No judgment. But, we’re talking fish steaks sliced straight through the vertebrae, skin still on that was simmering in a pot with, I think, onions, garlic and ginger was in there?听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.听

Kuma: And it looked really good! Really, really good! It was only… I think I only paid-听

Zoe: It was like seven bucks.

Kuma: Yeah!

Zoe: And, you got a small and the thing was huge!听

Kuma: Yeah. And Zoe, our dear listeners; I think the terminology was, “batshit insane”. You called me “batshit insane” for getting that.听

Zoe: I didn’t call you “batshit insane”. I called you “bonkers off the rockers”.听

Kuma: Okay, well close enough to me!听

Zoe: “Bonkers off your rocker”, or something like that.听

Kuma: Close enough to me. Granted, I also knew she couldn’t see it, but it looked really good. It smelled really good.

Zoe: For context, the last time that I talked about fish stew consistently with Kuma, has been, “I’m gonna get it. I’m gonna get this British Fish Chowder with Curry Powder and Mashed Peas on the side!”, and Kuma was like, “If you bring that home into this house, you are disowned!”.

Kuma: Zoe.听

Zoe: Yeah?听

Kuma: Bless your stupid little heart.听

Zoe: Ah! No!听

Kuma: Bless your soul…听

Zoe: Thank you. So, when I heard that Kuma was getting fish stew from this hot deli, I was immediately like, “What? That sounds horrible!” Again, because I had no prior conception of what it was, or how they had made it. But, it was so different from what I expected. The container was a big cylinder, and I don’t think you even managed to finish it.听

Kuma: No. It was multiple meals.听

Zoe: Yeah, you steamed some rice and you got multiple meal. It was only seven bucks! What was the flavor like?听

Kuma: It’s been a month. I’m trying to remember! Oh, no!听

Zoe: No worries!听

Kuma: So, the fish fell right off the bone. That was slightly sweet. With that fishy taste. Then the aromatics. The ginger, the garlic, the onion. But, then also-

Zoe: There was like this earthiness to it too that was seamless.听

Kuma: Yeah, basil maybe?听

Zoe: I think it was basil. ‘Cause, I don’t know how they made it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they had slow-cooked it in a crockpot. The flavors were spicy. They popped. They came together most beautifully, and that fish was so tender and so flavorful. It was so good!听

Kuma: You thought I was…听

Zoe: I thought you were absolutely insane for getting it.听

Kuma: Yes, and then I proved you wrong. Like almost always …听

Zoe: yeah, on the ride home, I was like thinking to myself, “Oh, I’m so happy I got a Banh Mi, and Kuma got some awful little fish stew thing! They’re gonna know pain when they get home!”. Then there I am like being like, “Oh, this is a good Banh Mi.”, and Kuma’s over there being like, “This is the best dang fish stew ever!”. I was like, “No… There’s no way. I must have some…”. Sort of evil villain-esque and then being like, “It can’t truly be that good.”. I tell you all folks listening at home, it genuinely was! I still need to find the recipe for that, because if I could slow-cook a fish stew like that! I would be over the moon!

Kuma: Mm-hmm!听

Zoe: How are the biscuits looking so far?

Kuma: They’re not quite golden yet, but they have risen, and the nice part about buttermilk biscuits with the butter and the buttermilk is they slightly separate just a little bit. So, we’ve probably got about 10 more minutes, just based off of this-听

Zoe: I suppose, yeah. That’s the art part about being fluid, knowing exactly when they’re done. ‘Cause if you have like smaller biscuits, they’re gonna cook faster than if you have big plonk biscuits.

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: So, yeah. It’s all about having your time, having your measurements, but cooking to your own tastes and your own desires. Like this soup, maybe somebody might find it not salty enough. Maybe someone might find it too savory. Maybe someone might want a little bit more pepper, or a little bit more lemon juice, or white wine vinegar. It’s all about being able to customize, turn it into what you enjoy, and what can fit your diet as well.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: For me, growing up, having to play a lot of professional table tennis, it was very important that I get the right nutrients. So, it’s something I always like to think about. But, cooking wise, I’ve only ever thought about the eating aspect of it, never like combining different ingredients like carrots, corn, potatoes, beef, all the things you need like your starchiness, your meatiness, your vegetables, your greens.

Kuma: Mm, girl…听

Zoe: is it that good?

Kuma: You’re just like, “Flavor is everything,” and it’s like there’s so much more than flavor!听

Zoe: That’s true. Part of it is also how I grew up, just having a lot of very flavorless food and consistently bland food. So, going out into the world, trying some foods for the first time; I never had a “gyro” until I was 23, yes. A “gyro”?听

Kuma: “Gyro”.听

Zoe: Gu- gyro?听

Kuma: “Gyros”!听

Zoe: If anyone has any feedback on how that’s pronounced; I always heard that people called it, “gyro”.

Kuma: So, what I’m doing right now is I’m pulling out the bones.听

Zoe: Oh, okay. And if you take those bones, you could pressure cook those, right?听

Kuma: Yeah, you totally can. I would just say, because it’s filled with like spices and everything, maybe not.听

Zoe: Ah, that’s true, yeah-听

Kuma: That’s just me, personally.听

Zoe: Although, the way that my mother used to put it; she would pressure cook the bones until they created a stock and were so soft that, according to her, you could feed them to dogs. I wouldn’t personally do that, because pork bones they don’t splinter like chicken bones, but if they have like a hole in the center they can get caught in dog teeth, or if it’s too hard the dog can injure themselves. So, always be careful about what you feed your dogs.听

Kuma: Yeah.听

Zoe: But yeah, growing up, we had this pressure instant multi-cooker. But, it was interesting because we never really used it to its full potential. Mostly we just cooked like rice or porridge or, occasionally, some pork. But, I never learned about what Crockpots really could do here. This is such an amazing, hearty, and delicious soup. Pre knowing Kuma, I would’ve never known how to make it. So, in a way, I suppose this heals my trauma and it also makes me jealous of the Crockpot. He’s mine now!听

Kuma: You’ll get your own Crockpot!听

Zoe: I will!听

Kuma: Okay? That’s not the issue. What was I gonna say?听

Zoe: I don’t know. Will Santa bring me a Crockpot?听

Kuma: Santa’s bringing you Ugg Boots, because that’s what you asked for.听

Zoe: That is true. I do want a good pair of Ugg Boots.听

Kuma: Oh, I know! Fiber. We were talking about fiber. You had mentioned fiber. So I would say a lot of people don’t actually have a good fiber intake nowadays.听

Zoe: That is true, yeah.听

Kuma: Beans are the most common way of getting a good source of fiber. People don’t eat a lot of beans. Which is to each their own.听

Zoe: And I know that some people are like, “Oh, the calories or the carbs”, or whatever. But, if you’re worried about that you can also go with like some good celery. Raw celery is really good.听

Kuma: I would say, too, it helps prevent colon cancer. It’s not just good for your body, but beans provide a very good fiber content and also really good protein content. So, if you’re a vegetarian and you don’t eat meat, beans are a good way of getting it; or vegan, too.听

Zoe: That is true, it’s really good to get lots of good fiber. Doesn’t spinach have a lot of good fiber too?听

Kuma: “Iron”.听

Zoe: Oh, “Iron”! Gotcha! Spinach has always just been a real favorite of mine, ’cause it’s got flavor, it’s got depth, and you can eat it raw on sandwiches. You can have it in a salad, in soups- Oh, it’s got so many wonderful uses!

Kuma: We’re gonna pull out the biscuits now.听

Zoe: Okay. How do they look and smell?听

Kuma: That’s a hot oven. Nice and golden brown!听

Zoe: I don’t actually hear anything. Is that normal?听

Kuma: Huh?听

Zoe: I don’t hear anything. So, I suppose I won’t be able to tell by, if you can hear me by listening to them whether they’re done, but… Oh, yeah, if you tap on them, they’ve got this nice sorum hole, but also you can tell that it’s a nice thick biscuit sound to them. They’re not sizzling or anything. So, our buttermilk biscuits are done and the soup’s ready. Let’s go ahead and plate it up and see how everything tastes together! Thank you. That’s such a nice warm bowl of soup, and with a buttermilk biscuit too. Oh, divine!听

Kuma: So, the biscuit is in there. I like having a grain that sops up the soup-听

Zoe: sops up that soup, that lovely broth!听

Kuma: Mm-hmm. So, why don’t you try it?听

Zoe: Okay!听

Kuma: There’s the biscuit.听

Zoe: Along with some broth, yes.

Kuma: Hope it’s not too hot for you.

Zoe: The beans have integrity. They’re not mashed. They’re really good. The soup has flavor, and the biscuit has that nice doughiness. It’s so delicious! It’s like when you just pour cereal into the milk and it’s still crispy, but it’s still in the milk! It’s kind of like that. It’s so good. Oh, I’m crying a little bit.

Kuma: If you can’t tell, this is a common occurrence in our household where Zoe cries over food.听

Zoe: Yes. But, yeah, what are your opinions on the meal? Give it a taste. I can’t wait!听

Kuma: I think it’s delicious! I don’t know. I cooked it!听

Zoe: Truly, but yeah, I need the chef’s seal of approval!听

Kuma: Oh, goodness. Okay. Okay… oh, my God, so good! All this childhood, right there.听

Zoe: The biscuit is just so full of flavor, so amazing. If y’all can’t tell, one of my main roles is to exasperate Kuma!

Kuma: She has succeeded this time.听

Zoe: Yeah. But, at the end of the day, when you taste it and you hear nothing; usually, for me, that’s a good sound. Because, that means that they’re so enjoying the flavor that they have nothing to say.听

Kuma: Can I go enjoy my meal now?听

Zoe: All right. Well-听

Kuma: I’m hungry, okay?!听

Zoe: Yeah, we’ve been cooking for a long while, and thank you for listening, everybody! So, with that, thank you again, Kuma, for guest hosting this new miniseries on Crock-Pot Meals. Tucker and I are signing off, and Kuma’s gonna say bye to you in a second as well. Thanks for listening, everybody!听

Kuma: Bye-bye! Enjoy your meals!听

Zoe: Yay!

Outro

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

Show Intro

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website,听 , on Spotify, on , and

Why Accessibility Matters

Asher: Hello, everyone. Welcome to today’s podcast, where we’ll be exploring the importance of accessible education and the people working behind the scenes to ensure that all students have equal opportunities to succeed. Accessibility in education goes far beyond accommodations. It’s about creating environments where students feel supported, empowered, and included. Today, we’ll hear from three professionals who each play a unique role in making that happen. First, we’ll hear from Jeff Larson, the Director of Disability Resources, who helps shape the department’s vision and long-term impact. Next, we’ll hear from Shawn Williams, a counselor and accessibility specialist who works directly with students as they navigate support systems and accommodations. Finally, we’ll hear from Sarah Price, the Alternative Formats Coordinator, who ensures students have access to learning materials in formats that meet their individual needs. Through their perspectives, we’ll gain a better understanding of the challenges students with disabilities face, the support systems available to them, and what the future of accessible education could look like. Let’s begin with Jeff.听

Meet Jeff Larson

Jeff: My name is Jeff Larson. I use he/him pronouns, and I am the Director of Disability Resources听

Asher: Thank you so much for joining me today. Really appreciate you.听

Director Day to Day

Asher: We wanna ask, what does your typical day look like for you in the Accessible Education Department and what do you do?听

Jeff: Yeah, I really appreciated that question because it made me reflect on the fact that I don’t have a typical day. It looks a little bit different every day. But, some common components are a combination of meeting with staff. So, in my role, I oversee and support the student accommodation team. So, that means I work with part-time and full-time counselors, and also our office assistant team. In that role, sometimes there are meetings, oftentimes there are kind of one-off questions or scenarios that come up. That’s actually one of my favorite things about this role, is there will be an opportunity to problem solve or brainstorm something that comes up. So, that’s a big part of my day, is just waiting and hearing of potential scenarios and being able to jump in and provide support to that. But, some other kind of standing experiences that I have in my role is I’m part of the care team. So, I have engagements with that process and supporting the overall campus community. It’s a lot of consultation, collaboration with different campus partners usually around accessibility. I work very closely with our Dean of Inclusive Education, Kayla Parks. It’s a lot of, primarily, staff engagement. But, in my role, one of my responsibilities is resolving accommodation concerns. So, if there’s a scenario that does come up, in many cases, I am the person that meets with that student and tries to understand the situation and provide a resolution. In some cases outside of that framework of supporting students from a, resolving accommodation concern, I also will meet with students to support the team. If someone, has another commitment or a time conflict, then I will also meet directly with students in that initial interaction with our office that typically goes to our practitioners and our counselors, but that’s something I’m able to do as well. So, day-to-day, it looks very different. It’s, sometimes it’s meeting with staff, sometimes it’s meeting with students. Thinking about big picture, how to make the office better. Sometimes it’s those real set meetings for team engagements and that sort of thing. So, every day it looks a little bit different but it’s all around the focus of accessibility.听

Asher: Very nice.听

What Is Care Team

Asher: You mentioned The Care Team. Can you touch very briefly on what The Care Team is and what they do?听

Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. So, the care team is a college-wide resource that helps support students who are navigating, whether it’s a crisis, a high-level concern, or some sort of impact to their overall wellbeing on campus. So, there the team that supports that students through student wellness and as through student care. But, then there is a subset of that program that’s called “The Care Team”, and in that, I work with other people on campus to find resolutions and interventions for students. So, if there’s a student that accessibility is a concern that’s been brought to that team; I’m able to provide a frame of reference of how to maybe provide support for that student, or if we become aware of that concern then we can take that information and be able to follow up with that student and make sure they’re getting all the support and resources that are available through Accessible Education.

Asher: Awesome. Thank you.听

Jeff鈥檚 Career Path

Asher: What drew you to work in accessible or inclusive education?听

Jeff: Yeah. It’s a really great question. I appreciate you for asking, so I can kind of reflect back on my journey and my story. So, I’ve always known from a relatively young age that I was interested in pursuing something in education. I have a lot of family members who have been educators from teachers and principals and things of that nature. So, that’s always something I’ve just been drawn to. Because, growing up, I saw some of the positive experiences that came from that. When I was finishing my undergraduate degree at Linfield University, I had an opportunity to be in a program that supported students. It’s called, “Upward Bound”. The role was called Tutor Counselor. During the summer program, we would have high school-aged students come onto the college campus and the intent of that program was to give high school students– who may not have a lot of experience with what higher education looks like, so these were students who were first generation or had a disability experience– make higher education seem more accessible. As part of that program, there were educational offerings that were basically classes that were available to those students. One of my roles, that I had there, was to help support students who had 504 plans. This was kind of my first exposure to accommodation implementation in a semi higher education status. It was still technically high school students, but they were at the college. Through that I learned a lot about 504s and how they were utilized and the supports around that. I kind of flagged that as that was something that was supporting students through that process and working with them and learning about some of the barriers and how to support them. It was really rewarding. So, I finished my undergraduate degree and I was pursuing a degree in school counseling with the intent to be a school counselor. Sometimes things just line up perfectly; as I was in my master’s program for school counseling at Bushnell University, in Eugene, there was a graduate assistant position for disability services at the university. So, while I was engaging in my master’s degree, I was lucky enough to get that position in the disability services office that provided accessibility services for the, for college students. So, I was able to pursue my master’s while also being able to learn about the higher ed realm of accessibility and what they called disability services at that time. So that’s what started me on my journey. Started it in higher education and accessibility and disability in 2009, and that’s carried me forward to various positions from there. But, that’s how it got started.听

Asher: Thank you so much for going through that whole process. It sounds so interesting going those different steps and everything just lining up, it sounds like, perfectly for you!听

Jeff: Yeah. It’s interesting in this field, I definitely have seen other colleagues that have been very intentional where, they knew what this is what they wanted to do and then they set out for it to make that happen. But, so often it, it seems that the stories are similar to mine, that maybe they were pursuing something and then there was an opportunity that there was a little bit of an overlap, or they were doing something similar and the skills translated. I think that’s changing over time, but especially people that have been in the field for longer; I do hear a lot of those stories where it’s, “I was doing this and it kinda led to that.”. It’s a great question, because I’ll be curious to hear what else you learn from your interviews of what people’s stories are like in this field.

Asher: Oh, yeah, definitely.听

Student Challenges at 抖阴福利导航

Asher: Going back to the whole idea of helping students with disabilities, and you touched on that a little bit. What are some of the most common challenges, students with disabilities face when they come to 抖阴福利导航, whether it’s their first time at 抖阴福利导航 or they’re coming back, and just the different scenarios and such?听

Jeff: Yeah. I think your point that you just made is really important, because students coming to 抖阴福利导航 come with such a different experience. Whether they’re someone who maybe just finished high school or maybe someone who hasn’t been in school in a very long time. Those experiences would be very different especially around disability experience and history with accommodations. In many cases, students who are coming from a high school experience, they may have experience with a 504 plan or an IEP. But, for someone who hasn’t been in school for a long time they may not have access to that information or, in some cases, it was less likely for them to have access to those resources depending on when they graduated. The most common experiences are pretty wide and vary a little bit of what that looks like. but, I think the primary focus is just knowing that students don’t know what the process is, and they may have expectations that it looks one way and in reality it’s a little bit different. Sometimes students come with that stigma of I’m reluctant to work with an office because I’m concerned how that translates and maybe I will be treated differently or maybe there will be something on my transcript. Things that aren’t true. But, it’s something that may prevent them from getting that initial connection. So, some of those barriers are just initially not knowing what to do or what that process looks like, or even if they know what that process is, maybe some reluctance to engage in that. I will say, because 抖阴福利导航 is so proactive with promoting resources like ours some of that initial barrier is not as high as I’ve seen in other colleges. But, it certainly is still there. I think that’s something that’s a good point to talk about and make sure we’re aware of that, then working towards eliminating that as much as possible.听

Removing Learning Barriers

Asher: How do you work to remove these barriers to learning and participation in students?听

Jeff: I think there’s a couple things that really emphasize that. It comes back a lot to just the team that we have. At every point of the process, whether it’s a student making an initial phone call or dropping into an office; there is an office assistant that is there to be able to walk them through the process, to be able to be really informative and supportive, also really responsive to the student’s need in being student-centered. Sometimes there’s that engagement that you can see a student is reluctant and you can kind of tailor your conversation to where the student is coming from and what supports would be most helpful. We do a lot of conversation about, ensuring that the student is in control of their experience. So, if it’s something that maybe they wanna just get some initial information and come back at another time, they can do that. If they wanna schedule that appointment right then and there after they’ve completed that initial application, they’re able to do that. It’s really about just meeting students where they are in terms of the process. The other piece that, I think our office does a really good job with, is following up with students with that additional information. If there is something that comes up in conversation, whether it’s that initial in-person communication with an office assistant, or it’s part of that initial meeting that they have with one of the counselors, that you get lots of resources after that. You mentioned something about, whether it was tutoring or learning more about our, digital navigator program that supports technology use. All those pieces are part of the puzzle, and we do a really good job of not just focusing on, “you came here because you have a request related to a disability experience”. We wanna make sure that we’re supporting you as a human and holistically. So, that’s been a real strength of the team that I’ve observed, and it’s something I think makes a big difference in a student feeling. I’m not just going to the accommodation office that’s very formulaic. It’s, “I went there and they worked with me, and they had a conversation with me and they understood where I was coming from.”. I think that makes a big difference in the process.听

Long-Term Impact

Asher: What impact do you hope your department has on students in the long term? I think you touched on it just a little bit. But, the broad spectrum of impact.听

Jeff: Yeah, thank you for, allowing me the opportunity to maybe expand upon it. I think the primary impact that our office can have is ensuring students are able to get the full benefit of their educational experience. So, over the years, there’s definitely been students who, if the accessibility office did not exist, they may have been limited in the way that they could engage in an academic program. So, just knowing those resources are there and can help remove those barriers and allow students to pursue their goals and pursue their dreams. Not to get too expansive with this, but this benefits our entire society to make sure that students are able to meet their educational goals. Let’s use an example of someone in a nursing program, because of an accommodation or because the program ideally is designed in a more accessible way; if that allows that student to then become a nurse, then just think of the impact that person has in that role and how that helps our greater community and provides healthcare in a way that is more supportive. Then if we think about that, that person, if they have a disability experience, they’re gonna be working with people who have disability experiences and they’re gonna be able to provide maybe a more disability inclusive care in that setting. So, I think it is pretty impactful just to think about those connections and how they lead to future connections and making the world and our greater community more accessible overall. Those are the things I just really get a lot of excitement and appreciation for. Just knowing that our work is very impactful, and there are times that it is transformative in how it helps a student and allows them to be able to persist or succeed in an academic setting. Historically, there are a lot of barriers in colleges and universities that we’re working to remove and reduce those, so more people can benefit from this environment. It’s pretty amazing thing to be a part of.

Asher: It really is, yeah.听

Future Improvements

Asher: You mentioned changes or improvements. Are there any changes or improvements that you would like to see in the accessible education in the future?听

Jeff: Yeah. Great question, and that’s something that I’ve really appreciated about this office in joining this team, is that we are pretty forward-thinking and making sure that we’re not just doing things the way they were done twenty years ago, but instead being really proactive. Incorporating more technology practices in not only what we do, but also making sure that there’s more access tools for students. So, we have a lot of access to technology that we use as part of accommodation resources, but we’re always looking at new programs, new resources. Anytime something comes on our radar, we will try to learn more about that program and see if it’s something that we can implement. The other piece of this that I think we’ve already started this process. Historically, becoming eligible for accommodations or benefiting from accommodation support was based very much on getting a formal evaluation and documentation from a medical or mental health provider, and then that the accessibility office would be limited until that comprehensive report was in front of us. We certainly look at third-party documentation as part of our process, but we also know there are students who may not have immediate access to those records or may be in process of getting some of that information. But, maybe they have other forms of information, including their own self-report. So, I think that’s something that a very forward-thinking office does, is looking at student experience as an essential part of the accommodation determination process. That’s something that we will continue to move forward with, just making sure that we’re valuing student self-report in determining what resources are available for a student.

Asher: Just the continuous improvement that we see evolving over the years.

Jeff: The other piece that I think we could do as kind of continual improvement, and we already do some of this. But, I would love to get more student feedback on their experience and try to take in that information through student survey and student responses then try to make adjustments based on that. Because, sometimes we’re making best guesses– not even best guesses– determining best practices based on the information that we have and we’re able to evaluate. But, I think there would be opportunities to get even more student feedback so that we can incorporate that into some of our procedures.

Asher: Have you guys tried putting out a questions box?

Jeff: Yeah, we’ve done a little bit of that in the past, and I think that’s something that we could really implement that in a consistent and ongoing way so we can maybe take that information and, at designated points, provide the same survey and see. We’ve put in this different program; how has that changed? This particular area of your experience and be able to do some comparison over time, I think is an area for potential growth there.

Evolving Role and Rewards

Asher: How do you see your work evolving over the next few years? Maybe three years from now? How do you see it change, or not change?听

Jeff: Yeah, that’s a great question. I guess we haven’t really talked about this as much. So, I’m newer to my role, so I’m still figuring out exactly what my role looks like in a year over year basis. I started this academic year, so I started in September. With that, I already have seen the different dynamics within the role of what is the busier times for 抖阴福利导航 and specific pieces of the position that I would anticipate needing to be able to support more students. At certain times it’s, “No, this is gonna be more staff focus,” versus, “Here’s more time for strategic focus.”. So, all that to say, I think over time, as I become more seasoned in my role, I think I will be doing more work on strategic planning and that forward thinking, that you asked about in a previous question. As, right now, it’s a lot of, “Okay, here’s something and we’re responding to it”, and I think eventually it’ll be more like, “Let’s anticipate what we’re gonna see in the future and then address it before it even comes up.” So, I think that’s where I would see my role maybe evolving and me becoming more proficient in that role, as well.

Asher: That’s great. Yeah, I had no idea that you were pretty new. Welcome to the team!

Jeff: Yes. Thank you!

Asher: I’m sure that you’ll find more answers to this next question, but what’s the most rewarding part of your work right now that you’re starting off? Or would you find more rewarding parts of your work later on down the line if you can think of it?听

Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think the rewarding work Is really just being able to be part of such an amazing team. I think that’s what I find most joy in. So, we already talked a little bit about some of those positive impacts that I’ve seen in the work that I’ve done over the years. But, the big reason why I chose to come to 抖阴福利导航, is accessible education and disability resources at 抖阴福利导航 is known throughout the state and throughout the country as having one of the best teams that supports accessibility. So, by being here and being part of that it’s really thrilling. It feels amazing to know that there is someone who has expertise in a lot of different areas or very specific areas. And, in my work, I’ve always been, I guess, more of a generalist when it comes to accessibility. Then we have someone who specializes in working as a ASL interpreter and coordinating ASL interpreting programs. We have someone who does specific work within technology. Our practitioner or counselor team, they all have specific strengths and areas that they focus on. So, it’s really just a very rewarding part to feel like you’re being engaged in something that’s so significant. There are definitely times where, whether it’s a student, whether it’s someone from the team, that I’m able to help them with a scenario and problem solve and find a resolution. Not all the resolutions are everyone feels 100%, like that was perfect, but just knowing that there’s a lot of those scenarios where it’s like, “yep, I helped create that solution and was able to move something forward.”. That feels really good in the day-to-day.

Asher: Very, very much inspiring. Thank you for that!听

Jeff: Yeah!

Accessibility Benefits Everyone

Asher: What do you wish more people understood about accessible education? And I know that’s a very broad question, but answer it as you will.听

Jeff: Yeah. So, when you ask that question the first thing I think of is that accessible education, the work that we do, and the philosophies that we have and the approaches that we put forth; they don’t just benefit disabled students and those with disability experiences. By creating accessibility and allowing things to have more inclusive practices, it benefits everyone. So, we think about scenarios where a video was captioned originally with the intent of, maybe someone with a specific disability. I’ll just use hearing, as an example. But, then anyone who’s watching that video; maybe where English is their second language, maybe where there’s a audio processing experience where sometimes it’s just more effective for everyone to be able to see and hear at the same time. So, anything that increases accessibility for one, in many cases, will increase accessibility for all. There’s a lot of examples like that. Automatic door openers. It was for specific physical access originally when we started in accessibility thinking about these tools. But, then there’s people who are carrying a heavy box in their hand, and they can press the automatic door opener, and it allows them to have greater access. When we think about the testing accommodations and thinking about having more time on exams there are scenarios where we should be thinking about how much time, is comfortable to allow everyone to be able to finish within the time that allows them to demonstrate what they know. I’ve been doing this for a while. There are some scenarios where an exam is intended to measure how fast you know something. But, most of the time, we just wanna know if you know the information. So, if we can create environments that don’t add barriers for students with disabilities, they also won’t add barriers for someone who maybe didn’t get a lot of sleep the night before because their child was up sick. There’s all these things that accessibility and inclusive education benefits and it’s not only disabled experiences. So, the disabled experience is centered in on what we do and is essential to what we do. But I think that’s something to really important to emphasize, that accessibility and inclusive practices benefit everyone.

Asher: I love that. Yeah, making things accessible for everyone regardless of whether or not they have a disability or not. I feel like that’s a huge one. Especially when I was in school, those test times, were just like, “Oh, shoot! I don’t have a lot of time left!”

Jeff: Yeah, I mean, sometimes there’s limitations on this is how long the class is, so this is the limitation on what the exam should be. But, sometimes it’s the instructor. If you’re teaching the subject, usually you have a lot of expertise and maybe it comes more easily to you. Sometimes they design tests and go, “Oh, well, this probably would only take me, insert X amount of time, so that’s what I’m gonna give everyone else.”, when really that’s not the best way to think about it.听

Asher: No, of course not.听

Testing Accommodations

Asher: And, I’m really glad now that, whenever you do need extra time for a test, you can schedule it with Accessible Education Office. They’ll give you a set area to take a longer time to do the test, and correct me if I’m wrong with that.听

Jeff: No, you’re absolutely correct. Yeah, that’s one of the resources that students access through our office pretty frequently is having an accommodation for extended time on exams. Then we collaborate with the testing centers on the four main campuses to provide that space and sometimes it’s actually just the environment of having reduced distraction location is part of the accommodation. Sometimes it’s being able to use technology. There’s lots of resources for testing that are available, so I’m glad you made that point.听

Asher: Well, thank you so much, Jeff. We appreciate you taking the time to be interviewed by us.

Jeff: Yeah. Thank you so much for inviting me. I really, really appreciate it. And, it was great to connect with you today.

Meet Shaun Williams

Asher: While leadership helps shape policy, direct student support happens on a more personal level. Shaun works closely with students as a counselor and accessibility specialist, helping them navigate services and advocate for their needs.听

Shaun: My name is Shaun Williams. My pronouns are he, him. I work here in the Accessible Ed and Disability Resources Department. I have two roles here, essentially. I’m a Counselor, which means I work with students around academic accommodations and with instructors. My other role here is I am an Accessibility Specialist.听

Asher: Thanks for joining me today.听

Shaun鈥檚 Daily Work

Asher: What does a typical day look like for you, Shaun?听

Shaun: I would say for the most part it is working with students directly, and that means in-person as well as virtual. We offer appointments and connect with students in both of those ways. This is helping students get connected with our department for the first time, and then it’s following up if any kind of questions or concerns arise as they’re bouncing their way through their classes and the terms and stuff. Since I do have two roles; as an accessibility specialist, I’m working on projects, I’m sitting on committees, I’m connecting with other departments, and I sit in front of the computer a lot too. So, doing different tasks there. Happy to expand. That’s kinda the thumbnail.听

Asher: Oh, yeah! If you would love to expand on that would be great, yeah.听

Why Shaun Chose This

Asher: Also just what drew you to work in accessible or inclusive education?听

Shaun: Yeah. Also great question. I think that this happened a lot of years ago for me. It definitely came out of my own college experience. So, I’m blind and was when I went through my undergrad and my graduate degrees. So, I absolutely utilized academic accommodations. Would have had a very difficult time getting through both of my degrees without. I was in this space as a student. I experienced it on that side and I really connected with some of the counselors that I worked with and just really felt like that could very well be something that I saw myself doing. It wasn’t initially; I worked in a nonprofit here in Portland for 10 years before finding my way to 抖阴福利导航, here. Really happy to have found myself here working in this capacity.听

Asher: That’s awesome, Shaun. I had no idea that you were Blind and low vision. Thanks for letting me know about that!

Shaun: Absolutely! Yeah! I could have announced that in my introduction as well. But, it always comes out one time or another, so there it is.听

Asher: Yeah. That’s perfect.听

Common Student Challenges

Asher: What are some of the most common challenges students with disabilities face when they come to 抖阴福利导航, in your opinion?

Shaun: Navigating the new systems. Students are running over there to connect with Financial Aid, and they’re running back over here to connect with Advising, and they’re running over there to connect with the Registrar’s Office and New Student Enrollment Advising. So, that’s definitely the thing that I see; students being up against as a new student. We definitely work to help with that, whether it’s warm handoffs or like walking students over to another one of the departments that they’re needing to connect with. So, it can be frustrating and confusing that these departments are seemingly kind of so siloed. It’s just one of these weird structures that’s just kind of true. There’s an awesome community here among the different departments. There’s a lot of supporting one another and helping them find where they need to go. So, it’s definitely navigable, it can be sort of a lot at first. A number of students connect with us, who had an individualized education plan and/or a 504 plan; these are terms for having accommodations in their K through 12 experience. So, it actually looks and feels pretty different here in college than it does in high school, if a student has had accommodations. There’s a learning curve there. Once students really get into that learning curve and they’re here for a term or two, I really feel like for the most part, how it works here in college, is so much better than how it worked in high school. That’s a thing that students have to navigate and adjust to, for sure.听

Asher: Definitely. Yeah. Thanks for diving deeper into that. I really appreciate it, and I totally understand the struggle of just going back and forth with different departments of what’s needed whenever you start in like a higher education, basically.听

How Students Get Started

Asher: Can you walk us through how a student typically connects with your services and what that process looks like for you?听

Shaun: Yeah, for sure. Really that first entry point is on our website; there’s a questionnaire that students fill out to officially get connected with us. How students find themselves getting to that questionnaire differs, for sure. Sometimes it’s instructors referring students to us, and so then they’ll just walk into the office and our office assistants are happy to connect with them and get them set up with that questionnaire right here in real time. Sometimes students know where they’re going and they just navigate to the website and fill out the questionnaire, independently. Another thing that happens, and I suspect we’ll probably talk more about this, is that here on the Southeast Campus of 抖阴福利导航, there is an accessibility hub. This very much serves like a Disability Cultural Center, like a Disability Identity Center. It’s in the Tabor Building here on Southeast Campus, so students sometimes just wander in there because it looks interesting and/or they’ve been told about it so they’re going to check it out. Oftentimes students find themselves in there asking like, “Well, how do I connect with Accessible Ed, and where do I go to get accommodations?”. The student advocates and Ira McKenzie, who runs that program, are super helpful in getting students heading in the right direction. So, once students fill out that questionnaire, that gets the whole system rolling, then they’ll schedule, and they’ll meet with the practitioner or counselor, like myself, and then they enter into– here’s where it gets kinda boring and dry.

Asher: Nothing is boring or dry! It’s all very interesting for those who don’t know about this!听

Shaun: The students enter into what’s called an interactive process. Which is, I think, a fancy way of saying, “real talk”. Just like, “What’s going on? How can we help you? What are you up against?”. Then we’re exploring what kinds of accommodations are helpful and appropriate. So, that interactive process is ongoing, always. Students can circle back with us if new things come up, if they have questions or concerns, and I should also quickly state that this interactive process absolutely includes instructors. So, there’s a lot of dialogue between those three parties, if you will.听

Asher: Oh, yeah. I’m sure. Yeah. Thanks for digging into that for us. It’s very interesting ’cause, the same with me, I’ve not really ever looked too deeply into Accessible Education until I started with the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective. Up until then, I did not even know that there was, Accessible Education Department. I was like, “Oh! That’s very cool that they actually have services like this! How did I not know about this when I was in school before?”. It’s great of you, and many other people, providing these services to support students in everything they do.听

Empowerment Through Rapport

Asher: How do you ensure that students feel empowered and not stigmatized when seeking support?听

Shaun: Yes. This is an interesting one for sure. I guess there are two parts here. So, the empowered part, is born out of that interactive process. When I’m meeting with students, it’s really important to me to put effort into creating rapport, so that students can hopefully feel like they can trust me and trust the department. That we’re there for them and that we understand their experience. I think that is really important. Along with that, there’s these conversations where- it can take a lot of different shapes and forms. One thing that’s coming to mind here is that, when I feel it’s important or appropriate, sometimes I share my own journey experience with students. Being like, “I totally understand where you’re coming from. I was in your shoes.”. I definitely see that some students file that away. I share that with them just because, I remember seeing models, when I was younger, and looking at people who were also blind and they were 20 years ahead of me, thinking like, “Okay. Yeah, I can see myself in you 20 years from now.”. So, I do think that that kind of helps students face barriers and feel empowered. Another thing that happens in those conversations is that, when students have these academic accommodations and these other kinds of supports and resources and tools at their access and at the ready; we really explain it to students to think and feel like you’re in the driver’s seat. That’s really one of the big differences between having accommodations in the K through 12 experience, because students weren’t in the driver’s seat during those. They were at best in the passenger seat and in others times, and spaces, it was like they’re in the backseat. That’s fine because they’re minors. But, these are adult learners and so really being the one who gets to decide how and when and where they use their accommodations is a big part of that empowerment.听

Asher: Yeah, for sure. I feel like that’s a big one. Giving them the tools needed in order to take charge of what they want in their studies and in their courses and what they wanna do in life.

Reducing Stigma With Community

Shaun: The other part of your question was the stigmatism.听

Asher: Yes.听

Shaun: This one is a lot more complicated. Complex, I guess is a better word. I mentioned the accessibility hub and I’m gonna bring it up again because, I’ve observed in real time that being able to kinda tap into a community that is in and around the Accessibility Hub can definitely help with that empowerment. “Not alone”, kind of feeling. There’s projects that they get involved with together and work on together, and share ideas, and tips, and strategies, and friendship. So, that definitely helps reduce and, hopefully, eliminate in some cases the stigmatisms. The reality that, attitudinal barriers and attitudinal discrimination is out there, is very real. Even on a campus, like 抖阴福利导航, that has value and philosophy in their mission statements, that we believe in social justice here, and there are a lot of initiatives and work being done to foster that and grow that all the time, it’s still a part of society. So, discrimination and ableism and especially those attitudinal barriers they’re real. It’s an ongoing conversation all the time. It’s really helpful for students to know about the different ways that they can connect with us and get that support from us here in a professional capacity and also the peer capacities that come with the Accessibility Hub and other options like that.

Long Term Student Impact

Asher: What impact do you hope your department has on students in the long term, or even yourself?

Shaun: I think probably what might be at the center of that, for me, is I really hope for students that they gain self-efficacy in their journey as a person experiencing disabilities and health conditions that brings them here in the first place. “Knowledge is power”, as they’ve always said, and that’s why people seek education. Is to gain knowledge and skill and definitely that translates to things like I really hope students get the education and the experience here to go out there and get that career that they’re in pursuit of. There’s a lot more to it than just getting the degree. The wisdom that’s gained through navigating a college education. Students who connect with us, either are experiencing the first time accommodations and/or just connecting with different kinds of supports and resources. So, they have that experience that they can take forward in whatever stage of life comes next, whether that’s like the workplace or whatnot. A lot of people don’t know that there are workplace accommodations. I’m definitely aware that some folks have accommodations in college and then they get to the workplace and they’re not as aware and/or feel differently about having accommodations in the workplace. That can create a lot of unnecessary stress and difficulty. So, there’s a lot that students can come away with in addition to a degree and a certificate and knowledge and skills.听

Asher: Oh, yeah. Definitely.听

Universal Design Future

Asher: With that, just what changes or improvements would you like to see in accessible education in the future?

Shaun: Yeah. One thing that’s always being worked on is this, really important concept of universal design. While we’re working here with instructors and with departments there’s work being done to create more of a universal design experience; which means that when things are universally designed, in many cases, something like an accommodation, is no longer necessary. So, this universal design really includes equity in education, in life. So, I really hope to see continual progress in that direction.听

AI And Evolving Work

Asher: How do you see your work evolving over the next few years for yourself? Would it change at all?听

Shaun: Yes and no. We’re always onto new projects. Some projects are more long-term, so some things don’t change. They just progress and then other things do change with new projects that come on board. I almost wanna say, I think we can see some changes in the next few years with the boogeyman in the room, being AI. But, I don’t really know. I don’t have any projections there. I just am aware of this thing and its encroaching nature.听

Asher: What’s your opinion on that? Do you think AI will be more helpful in the long run or do you think it’s more detrimental?

Shaun: I think like all technology and such, it’s both. Super complicated.听

Asher: Yeah, no. We won’t get into that too much. Yeah, next question!听

Most Rewarding Moments

Asher: What has been the most rewarding part of your work? Yeah, just going back into the whole idea of what you do. And you’ve mentioned a little bit about the two different types of jobs you do as a accessible specialist. Accessible specialist?听

Shaun: Accessibility Specialist.听

Asher: Yeah. Sorry. “Accessibility Specialist”.听

Shaun: I have to say it out loud, so that I can know what I’m saying and get it right. I’m a people person. That’s why I’m here. I really enjoy connecting and working with people. There are definitely times where I’m like that sensation and that like visceral experience of being in the right place at the right time happens a lot when working directly in that kind of one-on-one interaction with students. There’s a lot of joy and reward in that, especially when students are like, “I had no idea you guys were here. I have been struggling for so long. I’m so glad to have finally connected with you all.” . That happens a lot, unfortunately. It’s also just so rewarding when students realize, how they can support themselves and reduce or remove some of the barriers that have just been really difficult. So, that’s awesome to know that and really see in real time how impactful this work can be.听

Asher: We’re super glad to have you on the team and helping a lot of students out and helping them learn about all these different services that are available to them to help them grow in their knowledge and their careers and goals and what they do.

Shaun: Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that.听

Beyond Accommodations

Asher: The final question, what do you wish more people understood about accessible education?

Shaun: Yeah. I guess one thing to say is that it’s a lot more than just academic accommodations. There’s a lot more supports and resources and ways that students and faculty can engage with our department. That’s a big one, for sure. It seems like this is an opportunity to hopefully say something that will help dispel the notions and stereotypes and “ableist” kind of things that come up around this, whether it’s internalized. I suspect that folks who are gonna be listening to this podcast either directly experience some kind of disability, or at the very least know somebody who does. Like the rest of the “-isms” that are in our lives; ableism is in internalized. Connecting with other folks, I think, is a really helpful way to get inside of that and work to dismantle it. In doing so, we’re changing our lives hopefully making it easier and richer. Then that’s gonna also change the world. That sounds like a big thing, but I suppose it’s true, you know? I want it to be.听

Asher: Oh, yeah. We all want it to be, for sure. Yeah. A better world for everyone.

Shaun: Yeah.听

Asher: Well, thank you very much, Shaun. I appreciate you interviewing with me today.

Shaun: You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me on.听

Meet Sarah Alt Formats

Asher: Our final guest, Sarah, works in a highly specialized role as the alternative formats coordinator. Her work focuses on ensuring students can access course materials in ways that support their learning needs.

Sarah: I am Sarah Price, I use they/she pronouns, and I am the alternative formats coordinator for Accessible Ed.听

Asher: Thank you so much, Sarah, for joining me today. We wanna talk to you a little bit just about what your role is and just how you see things in your perspective.听

Alternative Formats Workflow

Asher: What does a typical day look like for you?听

Sarah: So, just an overview of my role; I oversee the coordination and production of all of our alternative format accommodations across all of our campuses. So, that means things like, accessible textbooks, large print, braille, and all manner of accessible digital files. I also work directly with, other 抖阴福利导航 faculty and staff with technical support and training on accessibility with their course shells or whatever else they may be doing. I kinda get pulled into all sorts of just different projects. So, that might be doing something like working on a newsletter or helping build a website about a particular aspect of accessibility. It can be all kinds of different things. So, a typical day for me looks like, I work mostly remote, but I do have to come in occasionally to do printing if there’s any production that needs to be done. I also do the work of organizing the work, so I’m meeting with people on my team who are doing some of the remediation or production of materials, making sure everything’s going okay. I’m emailing students to make sure they have what they need. I’m reaching out to faculty who have questions and a bunch of little bits and bobs every day.听

Asher: That’s cool. That’s awesome! What drew you to work in this area of accessibility?听

Sarah: It’s a great question. Part of this is I’m disabled myself. I have been a disabled student. I had my own struggle getting through college. Both my Bachelor’s and my Master’s Degree were extended because of time I had to take off due to health issues and other disability barriers. So, I’ve been there. In fact, I started working in this area when I went to get my Master’s Degree. I worked as a student worker at PSU’s Disability Resource Center and learned new skills. So, that’s where kind of the love of this started for me and I’ve been doing it for about eight years now.听

Asher: Wow! Happy eight years!听

Sarah: Thank you!听

Barriers From Inaccessible Materials

Asher: What are some of the most common challenges students with disabilities face when they come to 抖阴福利导航?

Sarah: That’s a great question. There are so many answers to this. Because, it really depends on what population of students that you’re working with even within the disability community. So, for me, the one that is most commonly, on my doorstep, is students encountering materials that are not accessible to them. Without those, they really struggle to be successful in their education. That could be something like they do better with listening rather than reading. So, they would like an audiobook of their textbook or a tool that reads it out loud for them. That could be a blind student who doesn’t have access to materials that work for their screen reader. It’s all these kinds of things that come up for me the most often and are huge barriers.听

Asher: Definitely. Yeah. I definitely also just face the same issues. I tend to listen better than I do reading, as well. So, I totally understand what you’re saying about getting an audiobook rather than reading through a textbook on its own.听

Converting Textbooks Legally

Asher: How do you remove these barriers to learning and participation? You mentioned it a little bit; how do you get a textbook and then change it into audio if you’re not even able to in the first place?听

Sarah: Yeah. There’s a couple ways we do that. So, there are often more and more, which is really awesome, digital versions available from the beginning. Instructors are using, or offering the digital versions, or OERs, open educational resources, for their classes which are often accessible. So, that’s just one piece of this. That is one way we can help is to make sure that that is something that we prioritize as an institution. But, when there are not availabilities like that we will take whatever version we can get our hands on. We will convert it to a file that works best for that particular student, or will fit best with the rest of the course materials the instructor is using, and just make sure it passes all the tests. It can be read either by a screen reader or other kinds of assistive technologies. Sometimes that means working with a publisher. Many of our textbooks are copyrighted, so we must follow the copyright laws and reach out to the publishers and get special permissions and things like that. So, there’s a lot that goes into the various types of materials that we end up encountering.听

Asher: Have you ever faced a situation where the author’s like, “No, you can’t turn this into an audiobook”?

Sarah: Yeah.

Asher: What happens during those times?

Sarah: It’s very, very rare. I’ll just say that. Most people, even if they have a whole list of requirements that they have, you have to kind of jump through some extra hoops, most publishers eventually will say, “Yes, here you go.”. We have had instances where they don’t and so what we typically do in that instance is, if they can get a print version of the book, we actually cut the binding off and scan it and then create a digital copy from that. It’s very labor-intensive, but you know what? We will do what we can to make sure they get what they need, you know? That’s what we do.听

Asher: Whatever you gotta do! That must take a long time to scan each and every single page just to… And, if it’s a hefty textbook too!听

Sarah: Yeah, it can be. I have actually been very lucky that we have not had to do that recently. So, almost always we can either get it from a publisher, or we find some other way for us to get what we need.

Asher: That’s very interesting, definitely.听

How Students Request Support

Asher: Can you walk us through how a student will typically connect with your services, and what that process looks like?

Sarah: Yeah. There’s a couple different streams that I end up getting connected with students. Most often they’re referred to me by their disability counselor, practitioners within AEDR. So, the student connects with our office, who works with a practitioner to get their accommodations that they might need, and then they either put their accommodations in our system every term and I get an automated notification that they have a request, or I sometimes get a direct connection via email, or a student just reaching out, who isn’t connected with us yet, that says, “Hey, I need help with this textbook”, or whatever. There’s all kinds of ways, but the most common is just through our disability counselors.

Asher: What do you find yourself providing, as far as, accommodation services and support? What do you find yourself providing most of more often than not?听

Sarah: Definitely accessible textbooks. That’s hands down our biggest request. To kind of put it in perspective; we have thousands of individual requests every term just for my department. So, Alt Formats, we get, depending on the term, anywhere between 800 and 1,100 requests for accessible textbooks every single term. That’s a lot of books! That’s per class. So, the requests per class. So, it’s several hundred students requesting for several classes each. Which may have more than one textbook each. So, it’s a lot! A lot of them we already have, and sometimes that process is sped up by, like I said, already electronic versions existing. But, that is by far our biggest service that we provide. Then after that, of course, things like large print materials, braille materials, fully accessible Word files, things like that.

Asher: That is a lot of textbooks! Oh, my goodness!听

Sarah: It’s a lot. But, thankfully, like I said, so many of them and so many of our instructors are using these wonderful already digital materials. So, when that’s the case, we don’t have to do anything further. We just check to make sure they’re good to go and then we move on to the next one. So, it ends up being significantly less that we’re actually needing to go and hunt something down. But, that is the number of requests all together.听

Asher: That’s awesome! Thanks for your work in that.听

Empowerment And Rights

Asher: How do you ensure that students feel empowered and not stigmatized when they do come and seek support? Whether it’s captioning needs, or textbook audio, the different things like that?

Sarah: Yeah. It kind of depends on the scenario and where people are at in their own journey with experiencing disability. Some people come to us really frustrated, because they already know what they should be getting. Then some people just come to us frustrated, because they don’t know what they need. There’s a lot of variety on that spectrum in people’s journeys. So, I try to be individualized in that sense. But, I think making sure students know that their right is to equal access to education. They are not silly for asking, they are not broken, or anything else like that disability is just a way that human bodies are. We have all these various ways that our bodies are and that is what it is. Not good nor bad. I also sometimes choose to disclose my own disabilities to make people feel comfortable. ‘Cause I think there’s something about having a shared experience that can really destigmatize what you’re talking about and also empower people to, “Hey, I’ve been through this too. I’ve gotten through this. I can help you get through it.”. Hopefully that’s a comforting and empowering thought for them as well.

Proactive Accessibility Vision

Asher: What changes or improvement would you like to see in accessible education in the future?听

Sarah: Yeah. It’s a big question. There’s so much, but I guess the thing that’s most present in my mind is I wanna see accessible digital materials being the norm in all areas of our college. I don’t wanna necessarily work myself out of a job, in the sense, that I know there’s always gonna be individualized support that’s needed. But, I wanna be working on proactive stuff. I wanna use my time for creative, projects and things like that. I don’t wanna have to be bogged down, because we have materials in courses or in other parts of our institution that are not fully accessible for all of our students and employees and community. We’re doing a lot of work right now to make that happen. 抖阴福利导航 policy has been in place since 2018, that supports our ongoing efforts to make sure that all of our digital materials are, fully accessible for folks and we’re gonna keep working towards that goal.

Asher: How do you see your work evolving over the next few years? And I know you talked a little bit about it of you don’t wanna necessarily work yourself out of a job. But, do you see your work evolving with technology advancing and everything?听

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing that I would love to see the most is, like I said, doing more proactive work. So, when a faculty member wants to build a new course, if they’re working directly with us during that process, building their materials together; that would be more fun and I think beneficial to people in using universal design principles throughout the whole process, whether that’s a remote class or in person. Have that be more what we can focus on and spend our energy doing than having to scramble last minute. That can be a really frustrating experience, especially for the student who’s experiencing it, but also for our team as well. The more we can flip that around a little bit, the better. Closing some of the knowledge gaps. That’s no one’s fault for that. That’s just you don’t know what you don’t know and we wanna be the place that can help and can support.

Rewards, Challenges, And Tips

Asher: What’s the most rewarding part of your work? I’m curious.听

Sarah: Yeah. I have kind of two answers. I have a short-term answer and a long-term answer. I think short-term, it’s really rewarding when you give a student that piece that they need to be successful. Connect all the dots, get them what they need, and they’re able to successfully finish that class. Hearing from students that they now have what they need and they are able to access the materials, that’s very rewarding. But, additionally, I think about it in the long term of I didn’t just give someone a textbook; I helped them be successful in their education, which will stay with them for the rest of their lives. That impact, that investment in someone, watching that bloom over time or just knowing that it will, is extremely rewarding for me as well.

Asher: Oh, that’s very sweet. I like that. On the other hand, what challenges do you face in your role, and how do you navigate them?听

Sarah: Yeah. We could talk about the technical challenges. There’s some of that. There’s some things that we would love to do easier, that is just not very easy now. There’s also the heavy lift of remediating materials that are all over our digital environments. But, beyond that, there is still a lot of stigma about disability and I see students experiencing it, I experience it, and it can be difficult sometimes to collaborate with people who may not have that same shared experience. So, having to defend or explain ourselves continuously can be very exhausting. Explaining what our students need can be exhausting at times, and that can be a real challenge when we encounter people who just may not have that understanding yet.听

Asher: Yeah, that’s a big one. Needing to explain ourselves over and over again. “This is simple. I don’t need to say it multiple times”, kind of thing. Last question, what do you wish more people understood about accessible education?听

Sarah: Yeah. They may understand that education is important, that access to education is important. But, what that looks like day to day is like making sure your Word Docs have headings, making sure you have alt text on your Instagram posts. It’s little things that really do impact someone’s access. That we can all agree is important, but sometimes it feels like, “why do I have to make sure I have heading structure in my Word Docs?”, that’s because, so everyone can access it. So, it’s like always kind of tying it back to I wish people knew what the different pieces. A lot of it is just not knowing what you don’t know, and how that does ultimately impact someone’s ability to stay in school, complete a class successfully. With those little things potentially ironed out, they can get there, they can do it.

Asher: Definitely. Yeah. General accessibility tied into accessible education kind of thing. I only recently also just learned how to work alt text as well into my images, which I was very confused between a caption for an image and an alt text for an image. So, I was trying to figure out which one is which!听

Sarah: They’re both helpful in their different ways, and the other thing that is important to note too is that there are differences even among people who need things like that; how they would like them formatted. There’s the standards, and then there’s people’s preferences on top of that. So, it’s always about trying to be flexible and making sure people have the bare minimum; something is there describing an image. Sometimes that might be alt text, some times that might be a longer description, sometimes that might be a thicker caption. It all helps.听

Asher: It’s all different.

Sarah: It’s all different, but it all helps.听

Asher: Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for talking with me about all this.

Sarah: Thank you so much for having me.听

Closing Thoughts And Credits

Asher: Today’s conversations remind us that accessibility is not just about accommodations. It’s about equity, dignity, and ensuring every student has the opportunity to fully participate in their education. Whether it’s through leadership, counseling, or resource coordination, each of our guests play an important role in building a more inclusive campus environment. A huge thank you to Jeff, Shaun, and Sarah for sharing their experiences and insights with us. And thank you for listening. Until next time, take care.

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify channel, , and

 

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Show Intro and Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and

Meet the Hosts

Zoe: Hi, everyone! Welcome back to “A Slice of Life”. This is episode two of our podcast. I’m your host, Zoe, we’ve got our co-host Tucker as well, and today our guest host is going to be someone I consider my adoptive older sibling. Someone who’s had to educate me practically about most of the things that I know now about safety and flavor combinations, and their name is Kuma. Hi, Kuma!

Kuma: Hello, everyone!

Mediterranean Pasta Overview

Zoe: So, today we’re going to be making a dish that’s definitely been something that embodies the idea of simple, yet tasty, and something that will sustain you with lots of nutrients and nutrition. Kuma, could you explain a little bit about this recipe?听

Kuma: Yeah, this is called a one pot Mediterranean pasta dish. A lot of stuff you can easily find anywhere. Like the title says, it only uses one pot and it’s very, very straightforward. We’re gonna do a chopped red onion, three garlic cloves minced, or as much garlic as you would like, a cup and a half of vegetable stock, dried oregano, so about a teaspoon or two, 1.5 ounces, so that’s about one can, of diced tomatoes, eight ounces uncooked spaghetti noodles, a whole bunch of spinach; basically, spinach wilts very quickly, so you can use a whole bag of spinach for it. One cup cooked chickpeas, so that’s about one can of chickpeas that you can buy in the canned section of the grocery store, a cup and a half feta cheese, Kalamata Olives, and then salt and pepper, of course.

Zoe: And those are, like, some wonderful canned goods that you can use. Because, I know that you soaked the beans and then you cooked them earlier. But, we can definitely use canned ones as well. You said 1.5 ounces of tomatoes? And that was-听

Kuma: 14.5.听

Zoe: Ah, 14.5!听

Kuma: Wow, I’m sorry.听

Zoe: No sweat at all. So, what are we starting with? How do we start everything off now that we’ve got our ingredients?听

Prep Tips and Cut Gloves

Kuma: Well, first, let’s make sure you have all your ingredients in front of you, right? So, all the ingredients, the red onion, the garlic, the stock, the oregano, the spaghetti noodles, the diced tomatoes, the spinach, the chickpeas, the feta, the Kalamata olives. That’s gonna take a little while, right? You’re gonna take your onion and your garlic and prep it all. I’m just peeling off the skin of the onion. I’m pretty sure there’s a fancy word for “prepping”. But, I’m just saying, “it’s prepping”.

Zoe: Well, at the end of the day, simple is easier. “Prepping”, whatever other words to call it, and I’ve always had issues “prepping”. It’s been tough, and learning has been tough, especially without any sense of sight or smell. Originally when I started learning how to prep food, ’cause I was so bad at knife cuts, I would always wear these things called cut gloves. These are gloves that are really helpful, really nice for protecting your hands from accidentally cutting or injuring yourself. They’re pretty cheap, too. You can pick them up from Kohl’s, Fred Meyer’s, pretty easily. So, if you’re afraid of the knives or any of the danger, go ahead and get yourself some cut gloves. Those are great.听

Kuma: Okay, so I’m just … I peeled the onion. And, I cut it in half. What I did with one onion, one of those halves, was I cut it in half again, horizontally towards the stem twice, and then I made some vertical knife cuts down, so we’re gonna have more of an even chop on the onion.

Zoe: See, I’ve always just cut mine in a grid pattern, and I know that would bring some larger chunks, some smaller chunks. So, I suppose that your method can make things a whole lot more even, right?听

Kuma: Yes. I’m not saying I am a prodigy at kitchen knife cuts, when it comes to chopping. But, this is something I learned working in restaurants.

Zoe: Oh, absolutely. This is something that you’ve tried to drill into me as well. Because, as you know, my knife cuts, while passable, are not the finest.听

Knife Cuts and Flavor

Kuma: Well, if you think about it, to have knife cuts like this means that every bite is gonna be even in what is being served. So, say you cut half the onion larger than the other half of the onion. Then you’re gonna have larger chunks of onion and smaller slices of onion, and when you mix that all together and serve it, someone is gonna get more onion in their dish than another person. So, it won’t be a consistent flavor profile across the board.

Zoe: And, not only that, but I think you’ve told me before, right? Doesn’t the size of stuff and the way that it’s cut, like ginger, or if you julienne, long, thin strips like of a carrot or something, doesn’t that also change the flavor profile?听

Kuma: I believe so. It gives it a more interesting texture and body across the board, as well. Let’s see. How can I explain it? ‘

Zoe: Cause, I’ve noticed when we use like matchstick-length pieces of ginger, the ginger becomes much more fragrant and robust, when I’m frying it for ginger pork, for instance.听

Kuma: Yeah. So, say we wanted big slices of onion, yellow onion, specifically, for a sandwich. Or, we were making Onion Rings, right?听

Zoe: Oh, yeah, yeah.听

Kuma: So, the name “Onion Ring” is very synonymous to how you wanna cut the onion. You want a full slice of onion so you can batter it and then deep-fry it. But, you wouldn’t do that with small cuts of onion.听

Zoe: Especially ’cause, with those small cuts, you don’t wanna always go high heat all the time because you don’t wanna be like… I would illustrate it with a point from when I was first starting to learn how to cook. So, as part of this podcast, we love to tell inspiring stories and stories not only about learning, but growth too. So, when I was young, I had the best idea in the world. “Look at this. Frozen chicken breasts. More heat.”. The specific phrase I said to myself was, “twice the heat will make it cook twice as fast.”.听

Kuma: Yes. Which is not true.听

Zoe: I can tell you- yes, from firsthand experience, my chicken breast came out still frozen in the center but practically burnt on the outside.

Kuma: Yep. Okay, so we’ve chopped our onion and our garlic.听

Stovetop Setup and Oils

Kuma: What we’re gonna do on the stove is you’re gonna take a large stock pot, not a medium or a small one, a large one. Zoe, don’t forget, noodles expand when they’re cooked.听

Zoe: They do! They do! I cannot forget that from my countless amount of times to be like, “Oh, not too many noodles.” All of a sudden, my pot is overflowing with noodles.听

Kuma: Exactly. So, we’re gonna heat this over medium heat.听

Zoe: Uh-huh.听

Kuma: And you’re gonna add oil. So, I personally just use Extra Virgin Olive Oil. For those of you that don’t know, actually, there’s different types of cooking oil, but also within that even more subcategories. So, say you have a Light Virgin Olive Oil, that’s used for salad dressings and sometimes marinades. It really depends on the marinade. But, if we’re talking Extra Virgin Olive Oil, that’s the one you wanna be cooking with. It has a higher smoking point than Light Virgin Olive Oil. Light Virgin Olive Oil, again, is for dressings and marinades, and it has a very low burning point.

Zoe: Ah, so it would burn if you tried to use it.

Kuma: Yes. It’s not the one you wanna use to stir-fry.听

Zoe: Gotcha. The virgin part of olive oil actually means that they don’t strain it too much, or they don’t put the oil through a strainer. So, it’s still got those little bits and pieces of olive in there. It’s really nice. That’s something with Light Virgin Olive Oil too, is that if you try to stir-fry or cook at a very high temperature, not only the oil will start to smoke, but those little bits of olive in there will start to burn, charred, and black, and you don’t want that happening. So, Extra Virgin Olive Oil have a higher smoking point, so it’s better to cook with, huh?听

Kuma: Yeah.听

Zoe: I’ve always just used vegetable oil, and I have noticed that sometimes a little drizzle of sesame oil is good, but I never cook with straight sesame oil.听

Kuma: No, that one again is also more for marinades or topping.

Zoe: Yeah. Usually, when I’m cooking, I just drizzle a little bit for flavor. But, I always use the vegetable oil, ’cause it’s just so reliable.听

Kuma: Okay. So, let’s get back to the recipe.听

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: We have the pan heated and a way you can tell, if you really want to, is just put your hand over the pot, and you can feel the heat coming up from it. You can also sprinkle water on it. But, again, let’s remember oil and water don’t mix by themselves.听

Zoe: That is correct.听

Kuma: Oil will jump up. So, Zoe, don’t do that… ‘Cause we don’t want you to hurt yourself. Okay.听

Saut茅ing and Heat Lessons

Kuma: So, the oil is heated up. I have the onion and garlic ready to go and we’re gonna add that to the pot, and we’re gonna cook it until it’s brown and translucent.

Zoe: Ooh, okay. Okay. And when it, when you’re cooking the onions and getting that color on them, that browning-听

Kuma: Mm-hmm…听

Zoe: what’s that process called again?听

Kuma: Saut茅ing?听

Zoe: Oh, no. Where the onion becomes brown. It’s, uh, caramelization.听

Kuma: Caramelization. Thank you.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.听

Kuma: But, that’s over low heat for long periods of time. That’s not what we’re doing right now. We’re just browning. So, it’s sauteing. Okay, you ready?听

Zoe: Oh, absolutely! Let’s hit the pan. And, is that sizzle, the sound you want when it hits the pan?听

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: Nice. I remember this one time when I was learning and I was like, “Okay, I got my onions here.” Went to the pan and just like, “Plop.”. You were like, ” Is the stove on?” And I was like, “Yeah, it’s on. I just put the onions in.”. And, you were just like, “Why isn’t it sizzling?” And I’m like, “Oh, I just turned the stove on!”. That’s not great, is it?听

Kuma: No, you want the pan to be preheated before.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: But, here’s the thing, too. If you have it too hot for too long, you’re instantly gonna burn everything.听

Zoe: Especially, ’cause the oil will start to smoke and whatnot too. You don’t want that charred oil, ’cause if you’ve ever gone out to and had a meal from outside and you bite into it and it’s deep-fried, or something. But, then this bitter flavor just permeates through your mouth and nostrils. That’s because some places will actually reuse their frying oil. When that happens that char, that sort of burnt-ness, will permeate throughout the oil. And because it keeps getting used over and over again, it’ll just flavor the oil bitterly. The same thing will happen if you have your pan too hot for too long and start to burn your oil. Your food’s gonna taste bitter, so you don’t want that to happen.

Kuma: Yeah. So, our onions and garlic is kind of starting to sweat a little bit.听

Zoe: Uh-huh.听

Kuma: Which is really nice because onions already contain a lot of liquid, same with garlic, same with a whole bunch of other vegetables.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: So, it’s just kinda extracting the-听

Zoe: You’re releasing the flavor and the moisture.

Kuma: Yeah, the l- the liquid, the water. Yeah.听

Zoe: And that’s why onions are just so nice. They have a wonderful, complementary, flavor. When you let them sweat, let them just release that flavor. Oh! It flavors the rest of your dish beautifully!听

Kuma: It does! So, we’re gonna let this cook for- Usually, this takes about five minutes.

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: But, watch over it for sure. We don’t wanna leave something cooking by itself in case something goes wrong. Zoe is a “prodigy” of walking away when things are cooking, and then comes back surprised when things are overflowing.听

Zoe: You know what? I meant for that spaghetti to have a crust on the bottom, okay?

Kuma: Are you sure you did?!听

Zoe: Pretty sure I did! It made it as if the spaghetti was its own bowl!听

Kuma: That’s not- appetizing…听

Zoe: I meant to do that. Okay?!听

Kuma: Sure you did. Sure you did.

Budget Cooking Resources

Zoe: But, all these things I learn and these stories, they’re really wonderful. Where did you learn about this one pot dish from?听

Kuma: I think I got it specifically from this website called “Budget Bytes”. For those of you that don’t know, I grew up very poor and a lot of my cooking was kinda just “farmer’s meals”. But, when I started living by myself, at 18; I really had to deep dive into cooking just for myself, as a person, to sustain myself. Budget Bytes is a great website where it shows you budget-friendly meals. So, say you have a budget of $10. It will show you that. It encourages you to use canned ingredients, dry ingredients, don’t skimp on the frozen ingredients either. They’re called ” IQF”, which stands for “individually quick frozen”, and that’s actually a really good way of getting nutrients from fruits and vegetables that are still almost in the prime, ripening stage. You still get a lot of those nutrients that the human body needs to thrive, if you can’t afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables.

Zoe: Yeah. “IQF”, I always wondered what that meant. I knew it was good, but that’s wonderful to hear. ‘ Cause, with those IQF mixed vegetable bags, sometimes I’m like, “Oh, I don’t know what to use this for.”. Like a can of sweet corn. It’s hard to tell sometimes and be like, “Huh, what can I use all this sweet corn in?”.

Kuma: Oh, you can use it for a lot of things.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: You can use it in stir-fries and stuff like that, soups as well, stews- Zoe really loves making shepherd’s pie, and I really encourage her to use the corn for that.听

Zoe: It’s an easy dish that’s tasty, but very rewarding. It’s one of the first dishes I actually learned.

Kuma: She’s gotten a lot better at that recipe too!听

Zoe: I’ve gotten a lot better, in general. I remember when making salsa for me was taking a can of that sweet corn, mixing it with raw onions and a bowl of tomato soup, like just straight up tomato soup, and calling it salsa!听

Kuma: Did you really do that?听

Zoe: Yeah, a couple times. I was like, “You want some salsa?” And you’re like, “That was horrifying.”听

Kuma: Oh, I don’t remember this! Maybe I blocked it out for a reason!听

Zoe: You might have blocked it out from memory!听

Kuma: Okay.! Okay… So, our onions and our garlic is starting to brown and turn translucent. Oh, lord, I can’t believe you actually did that…

Zoe: I mean, some of the stories you’ll hear on this podcast, you might not believe your ears. But, it all comes from a place of learning. I left home when I was 21. 22 actually, is when I left home and struck out on my own. I had such a sheltered life that I didn’t know how to do, basically, anything. I didn’t know how to cook. Very little experience even cleaning. So, my first forays into cooking were definitely disasters! But, I didn’t let that discourage me. That’s the thing! I really enjoyed it and I didn’t let it discourage me, even when the bottom fell off of my pepper shaker and I was just shaking whole peppercorns into my mashed potatoes. It gave it a nice crunch! Don’t get discouraged, because these resources, like “Budget Bytes”, that provide these recipes, these wonderfully budget-friendly meals and help you use up ingredients that you wouldn’t know how to use otherwise, they’re just fantastic. Puma, isn’t this meal vegetarian? Does Budget Bytes-听

Kuma: It does, yeah.听

Zoe: Oh, nice!听

Kuma: I believe they also do vegan meals as well, and they might even have a way for you to specifically search by an ingredient. So, some websites call it an ingredient index. Say you have an abundance of cooked chicken in a can. Now, cooked chicken in a can sounds gross! But, it’s also a great way of getting protein, and what you can actually do with that very easily is make chicken salad sandwich.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah!听

Kuma: Kind of like egg salad sandwich, but chicken salad sandwich with mayo and ketchup… Not ketchup. I mean, if you wanna add ketchup, you can, I guess.

Zoe: A little.听

Kuma: Sriracha, onion, celery, and you serve that on bread with lettuce.听

Zoe: I’ve done that before. I think you’ve served it to me before, and it was really good. I was like, “This was canned chicken? Never had it before, but it sounds scary.” And then I had it, and it was good. And, I think you also thinned out the mayo just a little bit with a touch of lemon juice too, right?

Kuma: Yeah!

Zoe: Yeah, that was good!

Kuma: Okay.听

Build the One Pot Sauce

Kuma: So, our onions and our garlic is brown.

Zoe: It sounds different!

Kuma: Yeah! Because, it’s cooked down a little bit so that protein and sugar content is slightly broken down. So, the cellular structure of the onions and garlic has been broken down just a little bit more. What we’re gonna do is now we’re gonna add our stock, our diced tomatoes, and our oregano. So, again, our stock is 1.5 cup stock, a 14.5-ounce can of diced tomatoes, and then about a teaspoon, or two, of oregano. Okay?听

Zoe: Now, hold on a second. I thought we were out of vegetable stock.听

Kuma: We’re gonna make our own.

Zoe: Oh, really?听

Kuma: So, there’s this great thing called “Bouillon”.听

Zoe: Uh-huh.听

Kuma: And, you can actually get it in cubes. But, I’m specifically using the brand, “Better Than Bouillon”, and it’s a seasoned vegetable base.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: I really like it. It’s listed as organic, but it’s made with a lot of ingredients you would randomly find in the kitchen, too. So, it’s a very easy, quick stock you can use-听

Zoe: I’ve had that before. Yeah, and it tastes good! There are other flavors, too, right? Yeah. Like garlic, chicken, and beef.听

Kuma: Yep.听

Zoe: Wonderful. That bouillon always tastes really nice to me.听

Kuma: All right. So, now we’re gonna add the water.听

Zoe: Uh-huh. Whoo!听

Kuma: Which that’s the sound we want!听

Zoe: Yes! That “whoosh!”, right?听

Kuma: Yes. And then I’m gonna do a spoonful of the bouillon into it.听

Zoe: Okay! Nice and flavorful!听

Kuma: We don’t need a whole lot.听

Zoe: It is very, very concentrated. So, if this is your first time having Bouillon, Bouillon comes in as kind of like a powdery, like cube or, right now, “Better Than Bouillon”, it’s more of like a paste. Like a nice moist paste. If you just take like a fork and just dip the tines in and then give it a little taste, you’ll taste how concentrated it is. So, we only really need like a spoonful.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm. And so now we’re also going to add our 14.5 ounces of diced tomato.

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: Okay, ready?听

Zoe: Yeah!听

Kuma: Now, with cans, in Oregon, there’s a very specific “recycling” for them. So, to recycle these cans you need to; one, wash them out and then also get rid of the lids because those can actually cause harm.听

Zoe: Oh, okay!听

Kuma: So, we can do that after.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: And then we’re gonna add in our diced oregano.

Zoe: Yeah. Now, for some cans too that are in like preservative water or like a brine, you can get rid of those and just give it a quick rinse to get rid of that. These tomatoes are actually in like a tomato juice, right?听

Kuma: Yeah, they’re in their own juice.听

Zoe: Which is good. Yeah, so we’re using the juice from the can.

Kuma: Okay, so we’re mixing all the ingredients in the pot together first. For me, it looks very dark in color and I can see very clearly the onion, garlic, tomatoes because it’s chopped tomatoes, or diced tomatoes in a can, and the seasoning. But, the bouillon is what makes it darker. So, if you’re using a different stock base, it’s gonna be looking a little bit different. But, that’s perfectly okay.

Zoe: Yeah.听

Add Pasta and Boil

Kuma: So, now what we’re going to do is we’re gonna be adding the noodles…听

Zoe: okay.听

Kuma: And bring this all to a boil.

Zoe: Now, we haven’t pre-cooked our noodles and-听

Kuma: No, you want raw noodles for th- or not raw noodles … dry noodles!听

Zoe: So, raw noodles for this dish particularly, right?听

Kuma: Yes!听

Zoe: Okie doke!听

Kuma: And, again, we’re doing eight ounces of spaghetti noodles.听

Zoe: Nice.听

Kuma: Now, for this one, it’s better to use spaghetti noodles because they’re slightly thicker than Angel Hair, and Linguini Noodles are a little bit too thick. Now, Zoe-听

Zoe: Yeah?

Kuma: Did you know noodle types actually have a purpose when it comes to cooking?听

Zoe: I did know that, yes!听

Kuma: Okay! So, noodles like these are really good at clinging to the sauce-听

Zoe: Yes!

Kuma: Specifically. Which is really what we want for this.听

Zoe: Different forms of pasta, it’s practically an art form. The different things that they do, the way that they interact with the cooking process. Even something like ravioli, which might not seem like, “Oh, just pop open a can of Chef Boyardee’s Ravioli and pour it in, microwave it, and you got a meal in minutes.”. It’s not just as simple as that, because if you wanna make really good ravioli; there are even processes where you cook it in butter, and have this wonderful golden brown surface. As it starts to get there, just add a little bit of cold butter, and just keep it at that temperature, keep cooking it. Like when you were teaching me and I was like, “Oh, isn’t this how we make risotto?”, and you were like, “Nope! That’s not even close to how you make risotto.”.听

Kuma: Do you wanna tell them that story, or should I?

Zoe: Go for it!听

Kuma: So, for those of you that don’t live with Zoe, we’ve explained she has a very interesting cooking history. I would like to put in perspective that most of her cooking knowledge comes from watching British Chefs.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: Now, I’m not saying all British Chefs are bad. Let’s support Gordon Ramsay, ’cause he’s a wonderful man and a wonderful chef.

Zoe: Yeah! Some British cooking is good.听

Kuma: Well, that’s because they’re not making British food.听

Zoe: That’s true…听

Kuma: They’re making French Cuisine, Spanish, Italian, and all these other recipes from around the world! There’s a reason why a lot of British cooking is not Michelin Star Rated.

Zoe: I suppose so. But, at the same time, there are some great things about British cooking. For those of you out there that love your English Breakfasts, I respect it very deeply! I just find it difficult to have beans in the morning!听

Kuma: Not only that, but it’s Barbecue Beans, right? Baked Barbecue Beans?听

Zoe: It’s some sort of baked beans and then there’s like a toast… I remember the first time that we were reading about it; for me, it was that- I think the Black Sausage?听

Kuma: Yeah, Black Pudding.听

Zoe: Freaked me out a little bit. For you, it was kinda everything else.

Kuma: Yeah, I will admit that. I will fully admit that.听

Zoe: Yeah, but here’s the thing about British Cooking; it’s sort of like a Melting Pot. Similar to how people have thought about America throughout history. A melting pot of many different things and religions and different cultures. So, for the cooking that I, personally, learned was; I picked up a habit of mixing together a lot of things I probably shouldn’t. For instance, salmon pate over toasted bagels. I ended up learning that what I learned as “pate” was not actually “pate”, but some other unholy combination of cooked salmon cream cheese, spring onions, and Tabasco sauce with Horseradish?听

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: So, to an extent, if you really enjoy it, you can have that on toasted bagels for breakfast. But, for me, it was kind of like, ” Oh? These things can go together? I better put my favorite combinations together.”. One thing you are gonna learn about food is that things don’t always go together. One night, I was like, “Oh, I’m so hungry.” I made some fortified vegetable soup. “You know what this could use? A little bit of tomato.”. So, add some tomato. “Ah, you know what? This could use a bit of sour, like some lemon juice.”. Add a little lemon juice. “Ooh, a little too strong! Now I better add some potatoes to help thin out the flavor.”, plus, I love potatoes. “Ooh, this needs a little bit more of an actual consistency or an actual solid. Let me put some stale bread in there so I can treat it like a German bread soup. Reuse that bread for something ’cause it’s going stale. I can put it in soup!”. What turned out was one of the most unholy combinations of food I’ve ever created, and one that I unfortunately ended up having to toss away. But-听

Kuma: Um, you’re missing one very important detail, Zoe…

Zoe: No, I don’t wanna share it!听

Kuma: Yes, we’re gonna share it! But, also, as you can hear, our pot is boiling. So, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna turn this to medium low, we’re gonna cover it, and this will cook for about five to ten minutes. The goal is to make a light marinara sauce.

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kitchen Horror Stories

Kuma: Now, the thing with Zoe’s cooking, she likes to give her guide dog, Tucker, the leftovers.听

Zoe: If they’re safe, yes.听

Kuma: Well, as we’ve come to discuss this dish– her weird, nightmare fuel dish– she called Tucker out and held the pot down to him, and what did he do?听

Zoe: I was at the other end of the hallway, crouching down with the pot out, and he walked out of my room, looked at me, stood stock still, for like three seconds, and turned around and walked back into my room and jumped on the bed!

Kuma: So, what does that tell us, Zoe?听

Zoe: He smelled it, he did not like what he smelled. Probably didn’t like what he saw either!听

Kuma: Exactly!听

Zoe: Ugh…听

Kuma: So, we don’t trust Zoe in the kitchen.听

Zoe: What? But, I’m a great chef!听

Kuma: No, you’re not.听

Zoe: I remember this one time I ended up gluing together… Again, we all love all sorts of ways of cooking. But, the way I learned to cook was a lot of mixtures of stuff. I was hungry at home one night, and I was like, “Oh, I could just combine two of my favorite things.”. So, I took like a bowl of, Junior Mints, and I melted them down, then I took like a bowl of cheese and I melted it down, and then I glued together two Hot Pockets with the Junior Mints, and I covered it with the cheese and had it. It was fantastic. Nothing else needs to be said about it. Kuma’s kind of giving me this shocked vibe. I can’t see, but…

Kuma: No comment!

Zoe: It’s all about the learning process. These days, now that I’ve learned so much more about flavor profiles, combinations of things, I really do feel like I can do my original mentor’s, their vision, justice. The ideas of combining together things that actually make sense. Someone thought that mashed potatoes and shepherd’s pie filling would go great together! And, it did. So, it’s all about finding those right combinations. While I may have made mistakes in the past, I think I’m a whole lot better now.听

Kuma: You’ve gotten better, that’s for sure.

Food and Frugal Upbringing

Zoe: But, tell me, how has food influenced your life? Especially learning how to eat cheap and how has that influenced your ideas about nutrition as well?听

Kuma: Well, growing up in a farming family; the mentality was use what you have. I was also raised by a single father. So, a lot of that was “Hamburger Helper Meals”. Poor American single father and Hamburger Helper meals with a mixed vegetable mix thrown in there… Try saying that five times fast.听

Zoe: Mixed vegetable mix, yes.听

Kuma: A frozen vegetable mix, thrown into that, and then a sort of protein added to it. It was kinda like Zoe’s meals, and that’s perfectly okay. But, what my dad very much taught me was he let me name those meals. So, a lot of time, I called it, “Glop Number 27”.听

Zoe: Any particular reason?听

Kuma: No. We numbered it very differently every time. But, it was very much just a way to get me involved in the kitchen.

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: As time went on, he got a little bit more money and we got our own chickens. Now, my father grew up on the farm, as well, but I grew up on a backyard farm. So, what that meant was we had a garden that we worked with. We grew a lot of our own fruits and vegetables that we actually ate. We had chickens. Now, the great thing about chickens is they are also kind of scavengers. So, we could give them a lot of the leftovers, the trash part that we couldn’t eat, like actual roots that were growing in the ground from onions; that little hairy part, nodule at the bottom. Any leftovers that went bad we could give to them. They were very happy, healthy chickens. But, we also would eat those chickens when they got old. So, they would lay eggs. We would use those. You can use eggs for a lot of things. During the summer, spring and summer, chickens lay a lot of eggs, so what can you do?听

Egg Brining Traditions

Kuma: You can actually do a brine to preserve the eggs long term.听

Zoe: Really?听

Kuma: Yes. I can’t remember the exact ratio off the top of my head, but it’s a very, very, long-standing thing people have done for a very long time.听

Zoe: I think in China they call the specific blend that they use and the thing that they call the eggs at the end are 1,000-year-old eggs.

Kuma: Yeah.听

Food as Love Language

Kuma: Also coming from a farming family, specifically my family, a lot of it is in the South.听

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: In the South, in particular, food is seen as a love language. Specifically, somebody comes into your home, you feed them. It’s part of our thing, it’s what we do, and it’s because a lot of us; poor as fuck. So, what’s something that we can share with people that we have? Food.听

Zoe: Yeah, and our love of food.听

Kuma: Exactly. But, then also if you think about it in history, in American history in particular, multi-generational families. That was a huge thing, so we would always have food. Now we’re less so multi-generational families, which is perfectly fine. That’s okay. But, then you have the Great Depression too, where people didn’t have a lot to eat.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: It was seen, I believe, for a lot of people as a very nice thing to just give somebody else food when they came to the house.听

Zoe: I remember reading Grapes of Wrath in high school.听

Kuma: You know, I never read that.

Zoe: Oh, it’s a very interesting read, but-听

Kuma: Okay…听

Zoe: Yeah, for any of you listening that are a little too young to read it or maybe don’t remember it anymore; it’s about a family just doing their best and trying to survive in the Great Depression. But, what are you doing right now with the ingredients?

Prepping Feta Cheese

Kuma: Right now I am taking out the feta cheese.听

Zoe: Ooh.听

Kuma: I’m gonna be cutting it up into pieces.听

Zoe: And, no fancy knife cuts, right? Just nice small pieces?听

Kuma: Yeah, it just wants to be kinda like crumbled vibes. We’re not mashing it.

Zoe: Gotcha.听

Kuma: Feta’s a very crumbly cheese in general. It’s seen as a softer cheese.听

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.听

Kuma: That’s perfectly okay too.听

Zoe: Right now we’ve got a block of cheese, so if you had like a block of cheese, you could just pull out like a box grater or like just a grater-听

Kuma: No…听

Zoe: You can’t use that for these? Really?听

Kuma: It would not go through the grooves of it.听

Zoe: Oh.听

Kuma: So, you can use a knife to chop it or your fingers.听

Zoe: I’ve always used like a grater to shred Parmesan, mozzarella, like-听

Kuma: So, Parmesan’s a very soft cheese as well. Well, not Parmesan- Mozzarella. Parmesan is a harder cheese, so you can actually shred it, but Mozzarella is an incredibly soft cheese.听

Zoe: Gotcha.听

Kuma: So, you wanna use a knife on that one.听

Zoe: Gotcha, yeah. It’s just more efficient and the cheese comes out better, is that right?听

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: Gotcha. Hey, you learn something new each day. It’s always nice to have a little bit of shredded cheese. ‘Cause you can freeze it too, right?听

Kuma: Yes, you can.听

Zoe: You and I have just taken a bag out of the freezer and thawed it a little bit, and then just whenever we wanna use it, like a lasagna soup, our homemade enchiladas, or anything like that, just a little bit of shredded cheese. Oh, perfection! Or grilled cheese even.听

Checking the Pot

Kuma: Okay, about 10 minutes have elapsed.听

Zoe: Right.听

Kuma: So, what we’re going to do is we’re gonna take off that lid and we’re gonna look at our pot.听

Zoe: How does it look and how does it smell?听

Kuma: Ooh! It looks very nice! My noodles actually stuck to the bottom a little bit. So, you know what that means is I’m gonna add a little bit more water.听

Zoe: Water or oil?听

Kuma: Water.听

Zoe: Okay. ‘Cause I remember that if we’re cooking spaghetti, the spaghetti noodles start sticking to each other while they’re boiling, just a touch of oil will really help them be their own little singular noodles and they’ll not stick to each other. So, in this pot, in particular, when they’re cooking down with other ingredients just a touch of cold water will prevent them from sticking to the bottom?听

Kuma: It helps actually with this process called, “deglazing”. It just means I also had the pan on a little bit too high as well. Which is perfectly okay. Again, I make mistakes in the kitchen too. I’m not saying everyone’s perfect in the kitchen.听

Zoe: Oh, everyone makes mistakes and it’s all about the learning process. It’s about learning how to cook, eating happier, healthier, and being prouder of yourself.

Kuma: But, we did get that light marinara sauce we were going for.听

Zoe: Ooh, very nice, especially with those diced tomatoes.听

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: Oh, delicious! You could do things with fresh tomatoes or fresh ingredients, but here we’re just using canned, like a can of diced tomatoes.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: And it’s working out wonderfully, huh?

Kuma: Yes, it is!听

Zoe: Yeah, so if you’ve got canned ingredients that you’re not using or that you don’t how to know how to use; I hope this podcast as a whole gives you ideas.听

Kuma: Okay. Now what we’re gonna do is you can heat the pan to low if your noodles didn’t stick to the bottom. I, personally, just turned off the pan.听

Spinach and Toppings

Kuma: I’m gonna add the spinach.听

Zoe: Ooh, okay. And again, spinach cooks really fast, right? How long do you think you’ll have the spinach in there?听

Kuma: Oh, it’ll only be a few minutes before it’s fully wilted.听

Zoe: Oh, okay!听

Kuma: You don’t even need to do a whole lot. I’m just gonna put the lid back on it. Let that sit.

Zoe: What do you think you’re going to garnish the soup with? ‘Cause I know a lot of people like cilantro or sour cream on their soups, but this doesn’t seem like the soup for that.听

Kuma: Well, it’s not really a soup. It’s just a pasta dish.听

Zoe: Yeah, a pasta dish. Sorry.听

Kuma: So, we’re gonna top with that feta cheese.

Zoe: Uh-huh.

Kuma: And then we’re also going to top with Kalamata olives.听

Zoe: Ooh.听

Kuma: Now, Kalamata Olives are olives that are brined. So, they have a very particular salty taste. They’re very delicious. If you’re like me, who loves a good cheese olive mix, I love to go to the deli at the store and peruse their brined olive selection and then their fancy cheese selection.听

Zoe: What was that fancy cheese you got at- What was it? Grocery Outlet? And you got this amazing cheese one time.听

Kuma: Well, it was at Grocery Outlet, and it was a “French Cheese”. It was a very soft dessert cheese, with lemon in it.听

Zoe: Was there espresso, lavender, and lemon?听

Kuma: Oh, there was another one too. Yeah, that one was an espresso lavender goat cheese roll.

Zoe: Oh, my gosh.听

Kuma: So, it was lavender that was finely chopped and mixed into the cheese, and then the roll of goat cheese was rolled in espresso. So, it had a very strong flavor, but it was very, very nice as well.听

Zoe: I didn’t know cheese could relax me. This here is our nice feta cheese with our Kalamata Olives. What do you think? Would a little bit of fresh mint help it any?听

Kuma: I think a little bit of fresh mint would go a long way in this actually.听

Zoe: Ooh, lovely. What did we just buy yesterday? I think we went to this lovely shopping center in Portland on 82nd, called “Fubonn”, they had absolutely wonderful ingredients.听

Kuma: It did.听

Zoe: Granted, I didn’t know that eating frog legs was a thing, or snails. But, hey, now I know!听

Kuma: Well, we can do some adventure cooking later in the future if you want.听

Zoe: True.

Kuma: As you know, frog legs are considered somewhat of a delicacy, depending on the region and who you’re talking to.听

Zoe: Was the meat “bouncy”? I’m sorry I said that!听

Kuma: Zoe.听

Zoe: I’m so sorry.听

Kuma: Zoe, Zoe, Zoe.

Zoe: It doesn’t sound like a soup or a stew right now. It really does sound like you’re mixing up and stirring the pasta, getting all those ingredients combined, all those flavors.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Chickpeas and Olives

Kuma: So, now what I’m going to do is I’m going to add in the chickpeas.听

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: I believe I said about 14.5 ounces. So, like one can.

Zoe: About that much and they’re already cooked, so they’re softer, right?听

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: So, we don’t wanna really mix too hard or we’ll mash the peas.听

Kuma: Oh, that’s perfectly okay too, actually.听

Zoe: Yeah. I remember this one time I had poured in actual sweet peas. I was mixing it and I was like, “Oh, no, it needs more time to cook,”. So, I was like, stir, stir, stir, stir! I stir very vigorously sometimes. Then I was like, “Where are my peas? There are no peas in here. Oh, no, they just mashed into the food.”听

Kuma: Did you really do that?听

Zoe: Yeah, with the shepherd’s pie that one time. Do you remember?听

Kuma: No, I don’t!听

Zoe: Yeah! At least the corn didn’t dissolve.听

Kuma: Oh, goodness! So, we got fresh mint. What I’m doing is I’m just tearing off just a tiny little bit of the leaves and shredding it with my fingers. But, also, here’s the thing about fresh mint; it’s a very subtle flavor, so it’s really good in fresh salads. But, I’m using it more as just a small topping right now.

Zoe: And fresh mint doesn’t taste like mint toothpaste or anything.听

Kuma: No, it does not. It’s very, very good to make tea with.听

Zoe: Ooh.听

Kuma: So, that’s why I got it, was I wanted to use it for tea. But, you can use mint in a lot of things too; as a light refresher to it all. Now, what I’m gonna do is, this is nice and all mixed up. I’m going to add the Kalamata Olives to it.

Zoe: Okay. These are Kalamata olives and the ones that we have are already in their own brine. Is that right?听

Kuma: Mm-hmm. And, they’re pitted. So, Olive Pits, the seeds, they’re stone fruit. So, they’re very, very solid. Kinda like how apricots, and nectarines, and plums have that hard pit.

Zoe: Or, like a cherry or avocado?听

Kuma: Yeah. So, olives are like that too. You don’t need a whole lot of Kalamata Olives too. Let’s be real, Kalamata olives have a very strong salty taste, kinda like capers. So, you need to be very mindful about how many you add.听

Zoe: I assume that they’re a nice snack too, right?

Kuma: Oh, yes!

Zoe: ‘Cause like a snack-听

Kuma: If you like things like that, like I do, yes!听

Zoe: Like that, plus some cheese. Maybe wrap it up in like a tortilla, or something.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: Very easy, right? ‘Cause a snack is small but it should be bursting with flavor!听

Kuma: Don’t add that to a tortilla…听

Zoe: Don’t add that to a tortilla?

Kuma: No.

Zoe: That’s my mind thinking of combinations that I think would be good in theory. But, I’m not sure how it would could be good IRL.听

Kuma: Okay. So, I’ve added some feta. Gonna mix it around.

Zoe: What about flatbread?听

Kuma: Yeah, you could do flatbread.听

Zoe: Yeah, flatbread with olive, tomato, and cheese. Oh, that sounds good. Or, like a pita pocket-听

Kuma: That sounds more like a girl dinner, I’ll be honest.听

Zoe: Ooh, that sounds like a great snack. Stick it together with a toothpick, and then you gently grill it, or put it on the pan for a little bit.

Kuma: Okay.听

Serving and First Taste

Kuma: Now we’re gonna serve it!听

Zoe: Let us serve!听

Kuma: Can you get a bowl, please?听

Zoe: Oh, absolutely! I’ll get two bowls! One for you and one for me!听

Kuma: Did you break that bowl?听

Zoe: No! No! I didn’t drop a bowl!听

Kuma: Okay-

Zoe: I dropped something else! Nothing appears to be broken.听

Kuma: Okay, so you will need tongs for this.听

Zoe: Okay.听

Kuma: The classic, double-check the tongs still work.听

Zoe: Yeah!听

Kuma: You click it! I mean, tongs always work unless they don’t. But, it feels like the classic move. Okay. So, those tomatoes should add a little bit of acidity to it, which should really help bring out a lot of that flavor in it as well.听

Zoe: Lovely.听

Kuma: Let me get you some garbanzos and, uh-听

Zoe: I can’t wait to taste it! Because, this seems so simple and we made it in about 45 minutes-

Kuma: it takes less than that.

Zoe: Yeah, ’cause we’ve been talking so much and I’ve been distracting you and trying my best to help. But, dropping things along the way! But, it’s so simple and the ingredients are so easy to get, and it’s vegetarian too. I’m so excited! Aren’t those lovely tongs from IKEA?听

Kuma: Uh… No.听

Zoe: I know that, that time we went to IKEA we got lots of stuff. I got potato slicer from there, actually! But, they do have lots of pretty affordable cooking equipment that’s of decent quality as well, right?

Kuma: Yes.听

Zoe: Yeah. So, if you’re not sure where to start you can grab a decent pan and some knives and spoons, tongs, or whatnot. In reality, like any metal with an edge, you can use as a knife. You just do your best with what you’ve got in the kitchen. That’s what it’s all about. So, we’ll sit down to eat. I’d just like to ask you a few more questions…

Kuma: Well, would you like to try the first bite?听

Zoe: Oh, absolutely! It’s still nice and piping hot! So, yeah, I’d just like to ask you a few questions while we enjoy our meal.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: How does it smell?听

Kuma: Tomatoey, so a bit of that acidity with the Kalamata Olives. Does it need more salt or pepper? Plus, this is also a great meal to pack for lunch.听

Zoe: Yeah. I don’t think it needs more salt and pepper. Maybe just a touch of pepper. But, it almost tastes like a spaghetti, but really leveled up!听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: ‘Cause of the vegetables. ‘Cause we basically made our own sauce. That spinach too, that wonderful, fresh flavor of the spinach, the saltiness of the olives to balance everything out. This is my first time doing this dish and tasting it. I would absolutely do it again!听

Cooking and Mental Health

Zoe: So, Kuma, I did wanna ask; because, I know that you and I have both had a lot of struggles with mental health in our life as well. For you, if you’re okay sharing, how does cooking help you overcome those struggles in life? ‘Cause, for me, I consider it very much. Mental health is extremely important. Depression and CPTSD are really crippling things that can basically be really disabling as well. How does cooking help you with those things in your life, or how has your life shaped around those ideas? Or how do you overcome those disabilities?听

Kuma: Okay. Well, cooking is a skill that really has been, for humanity, taught through family to child, or loved one to child. Sometimes it’s born out of necessity of the kid not knowing how to cook themselves, they don’t have anyone to teach them, and they just try it by themselves. So, cooking is about survival, realistically, but there’s also an art involved in it too, that allows a lot of creativity, as well. Zoe loves doing creativity with her cooking, and sometimes it works. Most of the time it does not. For me, some of that creativity comes down to a little bit of Oregon classics; which is popcorn with a little bit of oil and nutritional yeast?

Zoe: It’s good!听

Kuma: It’s an Oregon classic! I will admit that through and through. Other times too, I will do like a sunny side up egg over leftover rice with soy sauce over it.听

Zoe: That sounds good.听

Kuma: And that’s just like a really quick, easy breakfast I can make. Part of cooking with mental health stuff is, it’s how I show people I love them. Because, I’m still poor as a person. We’re in this economy where if you’re not making like over $100,000, you are still one paycheck away from losing everything. Part of the things I can do to show the people I do love them is making food for them, and I love making bread. I love going up to a friend and be like, “I made you a loaf of bread. Will you try it for me and tell you what you think?”. Because, sometimes it’ll be a new bread recipe, and they love it because they know I care for them, they know I can give this to them, and it’s made with a lot of love in it. But, if I also wanna get into the nitty-gritty about the psychology and the therapeutic part of it, there’s this thing called, “Somatic Therapy”. Which is about, for a lot of people who have trauma, a good way of processing feelings if we haven’t been taught how to express feelings, or stuff like that, is learning how to move. It helps move those feelings through our body. For me, personally, sometimes I will just get on the phone with a best friend and chop onions for an hour. The onions will make me cry and that’ll help if I need to cry. But, also, it’s just a nice way of I’m doing something else and it’s very nice to just get my body moving. Or, I’ll go to the gym and stuff like that. But, cooking too is, in and of itself, Somatic Therapy.

Zoe: That’s true and, not only that, those onions that you chop you can freeze for later, right?听

Kuma: Mm-hmm.听

Zoe: Yeah. Those vegetables, if you have too many carrots or any other things, you can always just freeze them for later, ’cause sometimes we’re just too tired. For me, sometimes, a really, really deep slump will hit me and I’m like, “Ugh, I just don’t have the energy to chop like onions, or tomatoes, carrots.”. I can just pull out those frozen ingredients and use them, right?听

Kuma: Yep! Granted, if you want something with a very strong crunch in it, you might wanna go with something fresh instead of frozen. But, that’s perfectly fine too. There’s no judgment in cooking whatsoever. Unless you’re Zoe making one of her, “Disaster Meals”.听

Zoe: “Disaster Meals” is a very light way of putting it. Remember that time, I was like, ” Oh, I’ve never had Vienna sausages before!”, and, without washing the brine off, put them into the rice in a rice cooker, and boiled it all together? I was like, “Where are my sausages? Oh, they dissolved into the rice.” That’s about right.听

Kuma: Yes. But, I will also say, folks, please don’t use canned spinach. This is just a personal tip, but don’t use canned spinach. Unless that’s all you can get, no judgment. But, I’m just saying it has a very briny flavor that doesn’t wash away.

Zoe: I mean, we’d all like to be Popeye with his magnificent muscles on a deep level. But, canned spinach, it dissolves if you try to cook with it. ‘Cause, as you saw here with our fresh spinach, it wilted really fast. The spinach is nice and soft in this bowl, and it has wonderful flavor. But, that brine, the preservatives in those canned spinach, it’ll just dissolve pretty much. I found it very hard to use canned spinach and canned collard greens personally.听

Kuma: Yeah, you can use frozen or fresh.听

Zoe: Yeah.听

Kuma: But, I’m just saying, canned spinach is not-听

Zoe: It’s not the way to go?

Kuma: No, it’s not. But, that’s okay. To each their own.听

Zoe: To each their own, for sure. Does this feel like a meal that you could actually serve to someone and show them as a love language that you care?听

Kuma: Yeah! So, here’s the thing about this meal, is it’s really quick and easy. If you really want low effort too and if you’re just not feeling it, or you’re sick, and somebody you care about is also sick and you live together; this is a really good recipe to make for that too. ‘Cause, it has a lot of those nutrients that the human body needs. We have a lot of iron and fiber from the chickpeas. Hey, guess what? People need fiber.听

Zoe: Yes, they do.听

Kuma: Eating beans is actually very good for you. Then you have those tomatoes, onion, garlic- you have all these wonderful ingredients in there if you just use the right proportions to mix it all together. I would serve this to somebody. Pretty sure I have served this to a family member, and they were very happy with it.

Zoe: You have now!听

Kuma: Well, a different family member. You know what I mean!听

Zoe: I know what you mean. But, yeah. Beans, they do have good fiber, so I will never stop trying to get you to eat an English breakfast.听

Kuma: I would rather die.听

Zoe: Ah, sadness. Truly.听

Kuma: But, yes.听

Quick Meals Wisdom

Zoe: The last question I have for you here; you said quick and easy, but a big theme on our podcast is just because it’s quick and easy doesn’t mean that it’s bad or that simple equates to bad. When was the first time, or what’s the first experience that you can think of that really taught you that, even when making something with your hands, having it be quick and easy doesn’t make it bad at all? It can make it sometimes the most fabulous. Because, for me, while you’re thinking about that question; we’ve come back to a few times, but the shepherd’s pie was the third recipe I learned how to make and considering cooking bacon in the oven as a recipe.听

Kuma: Well, do you remember how I make mac and cheese?

Zoe: For context, I’ve made mac and cheese before. Like with Kraft Mac and Cheese, and it always turns out horrid.听

Kuma: Well, you make mac and cheese in a very particular way. The way I’m talking about, for me, is even with Kraft Mac and Cheese, that boxed mac and cheese, I love that. I grew up on that. So, what I do is I’ll cook the pasta. I make the sauce, but I also throw in onion and garlic powder and a ton of pepper into it, too. Maybe I’ll add like a little bit of some spicy kick to that sauce, like sriracha or something, to make it just a touch spicy.听

Zoe: Or, cayenne.听

Kuma: So, for me, that’s still good. Even if some people see it as poor person’s Mac and Cheese. Because, cheese can be expensive.听

Zoe: Yeah!听

Kuma: Cheese can be expensive! It’s still a good way of turning something into its own. And, side note, you can also make Baked Mac and Cheese with that Kraft Mac and Cheese.听

Zoe: Oh! First time you served me that, I was in food heaven.

Kuma: Yes, you were very happy.

Zoe: ‘Cause, that’s one thing is you’ll find your own particular niche, your own particular touch for things. When I make my mac and cheese, to preface, I’ve made like actual mac and cheese with like actual cheese once and I used a lot of cheese. So, I get where Kuma’s coming from, but it was good. My mac and cheese were like those like boxed things. I never add anything. It’s just like the water, the sauce packet, the macaroni. Maybe, I’ll add like some onion in there. One time I added potato; did not work. And, one time I added bacon; that did help. But, it was just nowhere near as good as your mac and cheese, Kuma. It feels so simple and easy, but there’s still so much room to improve and so much depth that you can really get to when cooking. So, I’m just really, really impressed. I am so thankful that you’ve come to share your recipe with us today. I’m really honored that you would share your experience, your growth, your lessons about learning how to cook, and overcome adversity as well. Do you have any final words for our viewers, aside from the fact that this dish is positively, mind-blowingly, amazingly good?听

Kuma: Yeah!听

Budget Food Resources

Kuma: So, if you’re broke, people tend to think of food pantries as the really destitute go to. That is true. The food pantry is for people who can’t afford to buy food.

Zoe: There’s a lot of built-in stigma in that.听

Kuma: But, it’s also perfectly okay to go to food pantries. I survived off of food pantries in college. My college had a food pantry. I went to that on a weekly basis. I was on a first name basis with the people who ran it. They were very kind! They had a lot of fresh vegetables from the local college garden too. Then I also went to Catholic Community Centers. Now, I’m not Catholic, but that was where I could, back home, find food pantries outside of my college; through the Catholic Community Services.听

Zoe: No matter who we are, people are willing to help, right?听

Kuma: Yes. I can find a lot of stuff there, and you can find a lot of stuff at food pantries that we don’t always think of. Also The Dollar Tree too; The Dollar Tree has a wonderful selection of spices. But, we’re also in Oregon, so we have WinCo, and WinCo has a lot of great spices too in their bulk section. Now, bulk shopping is a great way to buy things.听

Zoe: Yeah, Soy Sauce, Garam Masala for my curries.

Kuma: You can also buy pounds and pounds of rice or beans or flour or seasonings for very low, in the bulk section. That’s the purpose of the bulk section. You can also get dried fruit. I have a jar of dried raisins, so I can add that into pancakes or cereal in the morning as well, or into granola bars.

Zoe: Dried mushrooms?听

Kuma: Yeah, dried mushrooms too. Yeah.听

Zoe: Yeah. ‘Cause we got some, and you can just rehydrate them and use them in your cooking too. It’s great. There are so many wonderful things, like beans that you can cook and freeze for later, or vegetables, even rice that you can cook, put into the fridge. If you need to refresh it, just run it under a little bit of cold water.听

Kuma: Mm-hmm!听

Zoe: Stale bread even! One trick that I learned was you can actually pour a little bit of water over it, and then put it in the oven and bake it. Now you do want to tent it in foil, but you wanna bake it, and it will rehydrate the bread and bring it back to life. Same with tortilla chips. If you’ve got some stale tortilla chips, if you bake them it dehydrates them and gets them nice and crispy again. Just on a low heat. We don’t wanna actually cook them on a high heat.听

Kuma: Yeah. All right.听

Signing Off Credits

Kuma: Well, how about we sign off and go eat our lovely dinner?听

Zoe: Sounds like a plan. I’ve been nibbling at it, ’cause I just can’t resist. So, that being said, Kuma, go ahead and sign off.听

Kuma: Good night, everybody. I hope you have a glorious time cooking and enjoy yourselves!

Zoe: Glorious!听

Outro

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!. 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .听

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri Newman

Show Introduction

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and

听[Intro Music]

Introducing the Guest

Miri: Thank you for tuning in to Let’s Talk! Today I have with me the author of , and their newest book, . Go ahead and introduce yourself, your history with creation and art.

Sydney: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be chatting with you today. So my name is Sydney, I use they/them pronouns, and I am a young adult author who is originally from Seattle and currently living in Portland, Oregon.听

Miri: Thank you. So, how long have you wanted to be a writer, and what were your main goals as an artist when you were, you know, up and coming?

Sydney: Yeah, so my mom loves to tell the story of before I could read when I was like two or three, I would take picture books and make up stories just based on the illustrations. And so I’ve always been a storyteller of sorts, but I didn’t really want to become a writer until I was about 16. Between the ages of like, 12 and 16, I was writing fan fiction a lot and having a lot of fun with that creativity. But after I became disabled at about 14 and then COVID hit shortly after, I started reading a lot to pass the time. And I wasn’t really seeing myself represented in terms of disability rep in books until I read a novel called that has a Deaf love interest. And that was one of the first times I felt represented on page, and that sort of sparked the inspiration for me to share some of my own stories and experiences through novels.听

How Disabilities Influence Creation

Miri: How has your experiences with your disabilities influenced your art?

Sydney: It has influenced my art in so many ways. It’s, it’s really hard for me to separate my art from my disabled identities because they’re so closely connected. I think one of the biggest things is I have learned to advocate for myself a lot more. A lot of the time in publishing there are very tight deadlines, and sometimes I’m just not able to meet those. I used to have a lot of anxiety around speaking up, or asking for more time, or accommodations, and I’ve really learned to be more confident in that. I think also a lot of the time, the advice when I was first starting to get into writing heavy duty, a lot of people would say, “Try to write every day, whether it’s one word or a thousand.” And unfortunately, that didn’t work for me personally due to fluctuating energy levels and disabilities. So really sort of carving my own path and finding out what works the best for me is still an ongoing process because every book is different. Every day is a little different for me, but those are probably the main things that influence my creation.听

Miri: Yeah, so you mentioned the 鈥� in the publishing process, the signing process, all that stuff 鈥� that it is very fast-paced and very impatient. How, how does being disabled affect your ability to meet deadlines and even just how you approach a new project when it comes to deadlines?

Sydney: I have very open communication with my editor and also my agent. Sometimes I’ll have my agent jump in to express something, or help me set a certain boundary, but in general, it is been kind of a recent development that I have sort of become okay with my projects potentially getting out into the world and on shelves later if I can’t meet certain deadlines. But sort of accepting that because I want to be able to enjoy the process and not negatively impact my own health and mental wellbeing to meet a deadline. So I still obviously try to hit all my deadlines, but have sort of learned that I won’t be able to hit every deadline every time, and however that affects the process, I’m kind of okay with at this point.

Miri: Yeah, I think that’s something that comes up in a lot of our conversations with people. Um, just in any sort of work, you know. Work takes energy, work takes deadlines. There’s usually a lot of pressure to do the thing or get fired. And for people with disabilities that could be particularly difficult. So what was it like when you were first getting signed, knowing that this would be something that most other authors wouldn’t have to face? Like did you go into it with that at the front of your approach, or did you have to like kind of back off and pretend that you were less disabled?听

Sydney: A little bit of both. I think when I signed with my first agent, I had no idea what I was in for.听

Miri: And you were, you were how old when you signed with your first book?听

Sydney: 18. So I was, yeah,听

Miri: That’s so young!

Sydney: Still very young and learning about the industry and I ended up not staying with that agent for very long, ’cause we had some accessibility issues and whatnot. But my second agent, I felt a lot more prepared and I sort of understood the industry a little bit more. And when it came to getting publishing contracts, nothing can really prepare you for when you actually are with a publisher. It gets very hectic, very fast.听

Miri: Yeah.听

Sydney: But again, just sort of setting boundaries, and really learning to advocate for myself. With my first book, I didn’t do that as much because again, I was still learning the process and learning certain things that were expected of me as an author. But along the way, I have gotten a lot more confident and a lot… a lot more comfortable approaching my publisher with, “Hey, I need more time,” or whatever the situation is. And they have been great about accommodation so far, which I’ve been very lucky.听

Miri: I’m very glad to hear that. I know that this is not an industry that’s easy for anybody, so听

Sydney: No.听

Miri: Having people who are willing to provide accommodation is good to hear.听

Sydney: Yes.听

Miri: All of your books involve a protagonist living with some form of disability. Why is that important for you to include? You mentioned not seeing yourself until, Kind Of An Epic Love Story represented in fiction. So why is that important for you and to, to include, and how does that affect your outlining and plotting process?听

Sydney: Specifically, I write books for teenagers and those formative years are so important to see yourself represented and see a diverse world and experiences. For me, that feeling when I read this Deaf love interest, I’m always sort of chasing that and trying to recreate it in my own books. Because I would just love for people to have that same sort of sensation of, “Okay, I’m not alone. I’m not the only one who experiences X, Y, Z.” It’s also important for able-bodied or non marginalized readers to learn a little bit more about a perspective they might not have considered before. I’ve had so many people reach out to me and say, “I am hearing,” or “I’m not disabled, but I really want to learn sign language now,” or, “I have learned so much about, you know, what hard of hearing people experience, thank you for writing this.” And those kind of messages are so important to me because it feels like my work is making even the tiniest little bit of a difference in, you know, making the world more accessible. And听

Miri: Or a lot of a difference, it seems like, to a lot of people.听

Sydney: Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully. And sort of on the flip side of that, the outlining and process.听

Miri: Yeah, when you’re planning a new book, will you go in with a character already in mind and write it around the character and their ability?

Sydney: Sometimes, yeah, it, it definitely is a little different for every book. Sometimes the story comes first and then the characters come. With my first two books, right off the bat, I knew that they were gonna have Deaf rep, and that was sort of one of the main areas of representation in those books. For my third book, which I’m currently editing, the story concept came first, and once I had the characters and the sort of plot and setting in mind, I looked at it and I said, okay, what disabilities can I slot in here? Which ones make sense for the story and the characters? And I’m exploring different aspects of my own disabled identity in this third book that I’m very excited about. But it’s always a fine line of making sure the disability rep is always there in the book and it’s not sort of dropping off and then a hundred pages later you’re like, oh yeah, the character’s Deaf, or whatever the situation is. But also not going too overboard with it and sort of beating readers over the head with disability rep. I want it to feel very organic. I want it to feel like you’re just reading this person’s story, and you’re not necessarily, you know, sitting down and reading a textbook, but you’re still sort of getting educational values in there.听

Miri: Tell us a little bit about your first book. The Loudest Silence, which came out two years ago.听

Sydney: Yes. Yeah. So The Loudest Silence is a dual-POV, Young Adult Contemporary. It is a platonic love story, which is always so fun to explore other facets of love that aren’t romantic. It features a character who had just recently lost her hearing, and she is a musician, and so the loss of sound is huge to her, and she’s not sure how she can go forward and pursue being a musician. And then another character who is a soccer captain with generalized anxiety disorder, who actually hates soccer. He doesn’t want to play soccer. He really wants to be on Broadway. And so they both have these connections to music that they’re trying to figure out how they can pursue it, and they end up forming this sort of unlikely songwriting partnership slash friendship. And that was very largely based on my own experience losing a significant amount of my hearing when I was 14. At the time I wanted to become a musician in the future, and reconnecting to music and sound was really tricky, but it was also really fun and interesting in certain ways. Getting to share some of that experience in The Loudest Silence was really fun.听

Miri: So, something that readers of your book might notice is on the cover, your protagonist is singing into a microphone, but with her other hand it is up against her, her throat. Tell us about that. Because that’s, I don’t think something that anyone would be familiar with outside of, outside of having seen it before.听

Sydney: Yeah, that is one of my favorite details of the cover. When I was taking vocal lessons after I lost my hearing, I went through several vocal coaches who felt like they couldn’t work with me because I was hard of hearing. And I finally found this vocal coach who was absolutely incredible, and we came up with so many tools for me to be able to learn pieces and sing again. That was mostly based off vibration, so a lot of it would be, I would have my hands on the vocal coach’s throat to learn what the pitch is supposed to feel like, and then I would mimic that on my own throat, and sort of match the vibrations instead of matching the sound, because I couldn’t necessarily hear all of the actual pitches. I incorporated that into the main character in The Loudest Silence because I had never heard of that technique before. My vocal coach and I kind of made it up. I don’t know if that’s a real thing out there somewhere, but it was so interesting for me to learn to reconnect to music in that way, that I really wanted to incorporate that representation into the book.听

Miri: Yeah, absolutely. I come from a music background of my own. Never a singer. I’m a horrible singer, uh, mostly from the musical side. But, uh, you know, I came into audio from the accessibility perspective and had also never seen something like that. And I just think that’s a super cool thing to have exist out in the world that a lot of people wouldn’t know about. Your sophomore book just released last month, as of recording. Tell us about that. What is that about, and what was the process behind the creation of that story?听

Sydney: Yeah, so my sophomore novel is called Someone to Daydream About, and it follows a Deaf and demi-romantic teenager who dreams of renovating her family’s rundown Deaf center and making a positive impact on her beloved Deaf community. But, unfortunately, they don’t have the resources to do that until she gets a job offer from the older brother of one of her students who’s in the process of losing her hearing. And the older brother of this student is a world famous pop star. And he offers to take the main character on tour with him so he can learn sign language for his little sister, and she can also earn the money needed to save her Deaf center. So it’s this really sort of unlikely love story between a Deaf girl and a boy whose entire world and career revolves around sound and music, and that juxtaposition was really, really fun for me to explore. It actually started as a fan fiction back, like I said, when I was like 12 or 13. And I stumbled across my old AO3 account one day, like randomly.

Miri: Oh, that’s always an exciting feeling. I do that every once in a while. I’ll see. I’m like, who? Whoops, forget about this. Yeah. For those who don’t know, that’s , which is a fan fanfiction hosting website.听

Sydney: Yes.听

Miri: No longer in beta.听

Sydney: I know, right? I’m like, wow. It’s some exciting news.

Miri: They’re like, “April Fools, were not in beta, but also were actually not in beta.”

Sydney: Um, and at that point I had already written my first book and I was looking for another spark of inspiration for writing my second book, and came across as old fan fiction and completely reinvented it and made it into someone to daydream about.听

Miri: Nice. So along with the themes of disabilities in your writing, there’s also a heavy emphasis on the theme of collaboration and cooperation and learning from other people’s experiences. Why is that something that you emphasize putting into your books, and where did that come from?听

Sydney: I think that my own experiences of making so many incredible friends who have disabilities, or are queer in ways that I am not, and learning about their experiences, I felt has made me a better ally to other disabled experiences. And sharing those themes in my book is really important. I think that even if you don’t necessarily identify with a disability or a queer identity in one of my books, I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from people who say that, “I’m not Deaf, but I have epilepsy,” or whatever it is. And they can sort of relate to the overarching theme of sometimes feeling kind of othered, or like you are existing in a world that is not made for you. And so exploring those themes and showing that even if you are disabled yourself, you can still learn about other people’s disabilities and become a better ally in general. I, myself, have learned that in so many ways. By reading and making friends, and even members of my own family, I’ve learned a lot. And so incorporating that is really important to me.听

Miri: Yeah, I was interviewing someone a couple days ago and one of the things that they said in their interview is, “When you meet one disabled person, you’ve met one disabled person.”

Sydney: Yes, exactly.听

Miri: So that theme echoes in your, in your writing. So what is the writing process for you? Like just you sit down at your computer, your typewriter, and then…?

Sydney: I’m not that cool. I wish! I wish I was a typewriter author. I think they’re so fun. Um, yeah, my process shifts a little bit for every book. For my first one, I just sat down and I wrote it. And what was originally written versus what got published was vastly different. That went through so many big changes. For Someone To Daydream Dream About, I actually sat down and I plotted chapter by chapter. I was like, okay, I need to know where this is going so I don’t rewrite the full thing later, like I did with my debut, but it really does shift. For me, when I’m first conceptualizing an idea, what is sort of an indicator for me that it’s going to pan out is if I have the beginning and the end. That’s where I usually start for every one of my novels, is I know where it starts, where the character starts, emotionally, physically, mentally, where the plot starts, and then the end, and then I fill everything in through the plotting process. And sometimes it’s more difficult than other times to figure out moving parts or side characters, or incorporating the disability rep. But I always have my sort of goalposts of the beginning and the end. And I oftentimes will have brainstorming sessions with my author friends, or my editor, or my agent. If I’m stuck on, I don’t know what the middle is, I know what the end is. I don’t know how to get to the end, or听

Miri: Yeah, right?听

Sydney: A certain plot device that is giving me trouble and just trying to be very collaborative with it. In the beginning, I felt like I had to be perfect all the time, and everything I wrote had to be polished like right away. And that has changed so much. Now I will send something to my editor and be like, girl, I don’t know how to fix this. Help me. And so I think you learn to be less guarded through the process.听

Miri: Yeah. So how long from sitting down day one and doing the plotting to a finished book do you have, and then how long between sitting down with the finished first draft and actually, you know, sitting at the debut signing at the bookstore.

Sydney: Yeah, so it depends. I feel like all my answers are “it depends.”听

Miri: I mean, everything is “it depends.” The world is, you know, full of shades of gray.听

Sydney: Yes. I mean, my debut I wrote in a month, but like I said.

Miri: Had to completely rewrite it?听

Sydney: Yes. Um, my second book, it, I think I wrote it in about three months and it didn’t change a whole lot, and I had a very thorough outline for that book. With my third book, I have been working on it for about a year now, and we are still chipping away at it. The process really does shift depending on what book, and if you are already under contract or you’re just writing for the fun of it, there’s so many factors. But in general, when you sell a book to a publisher, it takes at least two years until it is on shelves. And that is because you’re editing it with your editor, the marketing team is figuring out how can we market this? They’re designing the cover. There’s so much behind the scenes that I didn’t even know about until, I bought a publishing contract, and then I was like, “What do you mean it’s gonna be two years”

Miri:听The book is done, just print it!听

Sydney: Yeah. I’m like, can we just publish it now?

Miri: What do you mean there’s more work we have to do? I already did all the work! Uh, You mentioned getting under contract. How did that first happen for you? How did you go about getting yourself noticed, getting yourself out there?听

Sydney: When I first started writing during the initial COVID lockdown in 2020, I just started posting on Twitter about it. Back when Twitter was not a terrible place to be. And I ended up just kind of stumbling across the writing community. I didn’t actively search for them, but I made so many friends that I’m still friends with to this day. And back in the day there were a lot of like book pitch events on Twitter, where there’s a certain hashtag you would use, and then you could use however many Twitter characters you had to sort of pitch your book to agents.听

Miri: Hmm.听

Sydney: They would comment on your post if they wanted you to send them the book. So I actually ended up finding my first agent through one of those pitch events. My second agent, I actually also connected with on Twitter initially. So: Twitter. Yeah. But then my agent took my book. We edited it together. There’s so much editing. The book, it’s endless. And she created a list of, “I think these editors at these publishers would really like this book,” and then she sent it to them. So she 鈥� the agent 鈥� kind of controls that after you sign with them. There are some publishing houses that you can submit to if you’re un-agented, but most of them you have to have an agent to do that process for you.听

Miri: Just through Twitter and having a good pitch, and having a good agent, and then boom, here you are on book number two!

Sydney: Yes, essentially there are also, there are websites like, I think it’s called Manuscript Wishlist, where a lot of agents and also editors will put on,” Here’s the kind of client I’m looking for.” So that it’s kind of a directory where un-agented authors can look up their genre and their age range and try and find agents to submit to, and those resources are very helpful as well. But for me it was mostly Twitter. Yeah.听

Miri: Hey, sometimes the internet can be a force for good.听

Sydney: Yes.听

Miri: Very, very occasionally, but, but sometimes it is true. So this is something I’ve been wondering about as you’ve been talking about this: What is the environment of young adult fiction like right now? Like, is it, is it doing good? What are the current trends? Have people been reading less or more?听

Sydney: Yeah, so… With publishing and books, it always goes in waves, where you’ll hear; X, Y, Z genre is dying, and then the next year everyone’s like, “We want this genre again. Where are, where are all the writers who write these genres?” And so it’s always very tricky. I think most authors’ least favorite word is The Market, because you see that so often, of “The Market doesn’t want that right now. “

Miri: Well, and especially if a book takes two years between being basically finished and then on shelves, like听

Sydney: Exactly.听

Miri: Anything can happen in that time.

Sydney: Yeah. So right now, fantasy is having a really big moment. When our current president got reelected 鈥� I don’t even want to curse this interview by saying his name 鈥� but you saw a big resurgence in book bans, which is so fun. Um, and so a lot.听

Miri: We love it.听

Sydney: Yes. Unfortunately now it’s even harder to get marginalized books put through publishers. And we’re seeing more people gravitate towards like fantasy, sci-fi, something that isn’t of this world. Or, it’s this world but, it’s like magical because they sort of want an escape route from our current reality. Um, but yeah, the trends are always going up or down. It’s very much a rollercoaster and nobody can really predict anything.

Miri: Yeah. ’cause I mean, I imagine what is talked about the most, what stirs up the most, you know, online discourse 鈥� which is how I think a lot of people would hear about books that they wouldn’t necessarily pick up themselves 鈥� isn’t a good reflection of what is actually popular and being read, but just not talked about a lot. And you know, most of what I see talked about is books that do feature marginalized representation and some sort of thematic thing in line with that, just because there’s more to talk about in that than a book that is less about that. Especially right now. ’cause you’ll, you’ll see things heralded from both sides of, “Oh yay, this book is an amazing Deaf/Hard of Hearing representation.” And then you’ll be like, “Oh, those snowflakes with their throat singing.”

Sydney: Yes. It’s, it’s a hundred percent like that. You get a lot of mixed opinions. And disability rep, there’s still so many stories that haven’t been told. And you hear a lot of “this trope is dead,” or “everyone’s tired of seeing this trope.” My opinion is no trope is dead until we have not just one, but several types of marginalization with that kind of story, so. Disability rep, BIPOC rep, queer rep. And a lot of the time publishing falls into, oh, “We have one Deaf book, so we don’t wanna publish yours because we’ve already published one.” It’s kind of like, okay, it’s great you published one, but we need more than that.听

Miri: You mentioned having things come in waves, and publishers not wanting X book because they already have Y book about the same thing. What are some representations that you have seen that are especially good or especially bad?听

Sydney: So especially good, I’ve already mentioned, but This Is Kind Of An Epic Love Story, and I really think that’s a testament to authors not being afraid to include a marginalization in their book that they don’t necessarily share. I am pretty sure the author of that book is not Deaf or hard of hearing in any way, and so I loved seeing that too because it was very unexpected, but it was so masterfully done. And there are so many incredible authors who are sharing own voices stories right now. is one of my good friends and writes Deaf rep as well as other disability rep in her books. My friend is incredible. He writes disability rep as well, and like Latinx fantasy, which is so fun.听

Miri: And they were the one at your first book signing, right?听

Sydney: And my second, yes. Aiden, I love him too because he uplifts younger authors in the space. He really walks the walk, of supporting marginalized authors, which is incredible. I think in terms of bad representation, you often see in books, movies, shows, whatever, that this sort of two sides of a negative stereotype coin. One is a sort of pitiable miserable, disabled character, where being miserable is their only personality trait, and the only reason that they’re miserable is because they’re disabled. That is very ableist. It’s like, okay, let’s unpack that. And then the other side of that is the sort of inspiration porn disabled character, of someone who is so successful In Spite of their disability, and they almost don’t want that associated with them, or able-bodied characters. Or like, “See, we don’t have an excuse because this person doesn’t let their disability get them down.” And, you know, that’s not saying that sometimes it, it does suck to be disabled. Absolutely does. A hundred percent. I think that that showing the sort of heavier side of being disabled is a hundred percent valid. And I, you know, I show that in my books as well. But then also, you know, not having someone just be sort of a hundred percent happy all the time. Like go, go, go, this sort of inspirational figure, because there’s so much nuance to disability rep and I myself, I have a beautiful community that I’ve made because I am disabled, that I wouldn’t have made, probably, if I wasn’t. But that also doesn’t mean that life isn’t hard because of my disabilities. And striking that sort of balance, I think that a lot of people who create film and television, as well as authors, can utilize the help of authenticity readers, or actually getting disabled people in there when you’re working on a project. It’s kind of one of those Yeah. Mind blowing concept. But I’ve even used authenticity readers in my books, even though I am hard of hearing, because, I want that extra layer of outside opinion and fresh eyes. And so I think that that is sort of something that’s underutilized right now. I think that more people should be bringing disabled people into their projects as sort of an added layer of authenticity if they are not disabled, and sometimes even if they are.

Miri: Yeah, that’s a good answer. At all of your public events, you have an interpreter, which is awesome. Love having interpreters accessible. Has there ever been pushback against getting someone like that some of your accessibility needs met, or,

Sydney: Yeah, so almost every time it’s a little tricky. In interviews or events, a lot of the time there’s this sort of monetary barrier with interpreters, because if you go through an interpretation company, they usually have much higher rates than freelance interpreters, but freelance interpreters, sometimes they don’t have all of the right qualifications, and so it can be hard to just find an interpreter in the first place. But. Yeah, it is, it is difficult when you’re working specifically, like with indie bookstores 鈥� who I love to support over, you know, a big conglomerate of any kind 鈥� oftentimes they don’t have the budget to do that. Sometimes I don’t have the budget to pay for my own interpreter, and so sometimes it’s just this situation of weighing the pros and cons of doing an event or a certain interview. I’ve been very fortunate that with this promotional round for Someone To Daydream About, my publisher has paid for an interpretation team to be at my events because we’re also catering to the Deaf community, and so we want events to be accessible for them. And I’ve also been very lucky to have some interpreters donate their time to me, for like television interviews or something along those lines where I’m not able to afford it. The company or whoever is doing the interview doesn’t have. Not necessarily the funds, but you know, there’s all sorts of approvals and, and听

Miri: Oh, yeah. So for this interview, we’re using a live transcription.听

Sydney: Yes.听

Miri: Um, and 抖阴福利导航 has a fantastic team of interpreters that I used for an interview a couple weeks ago. and they were able to, because we have just so many different interpreter teams, we can get people very last-minute on very short notice. But that is something that is specifically 抖阴福利导航’s strength, while most services you know, a bookstore is not gonna have an interpreter on staff and you know, a local news station probably won’t even have someone that they can get to without like, multiple days 鈥� if not weeks 鈥� notice, so.听

Sydney: Yeah, so it can definitely be tricky trying to sort of strike that balance. It is always something when I’m invited to a festival or for an interview that I immediately shoot back to them saying I need an interpreter. Oftentimes, you just don’t get a response. They kind of ghost you after that is very unfortunate.

Miri: Very cool of them. Very cool.听

Sydney: Yeah, and they say, “We can’t provide that, but you can bring your own,” or whatever the situation is. It can be very difficult to navigate. Of course I always want the interpreters to be paid for their time because they’re doing such great work, but sometimes nobody has, you know, the ability to, to do that. And I’ve been very lucky, like I said, to have some interpreters donate their time. One of the interpreters I’ve been working with recently actually works at 抖阴福利导航, and it’s been awesome to have that.听

Miri: Shout out to them.听

Sydney: Yes. That sort of connection as well. And 抖阴福利导航s interpreting programs are always really awesome. So I’m, I’m excited to be here doing the interview with 抖阴福利导航 in general, but I, I love what yay y’all have going on in terms of the ASL.听

Miri: Yeah, we are very fortunate to have, to have people who are willing to put in the resources to making interpretation accessible, which it is not even at other universities,听

Sydney: Right.

Miri: with, you know, similar or greater student body needs. So you mentioned right at the start of this that you are also a musician and singer. What is that like, being hard of hearing?

Sydney: So I have not been in the sort of musical world for a while. After I really started pursuing the writing full-time, I’ve devoted all my energy to this. But music still has a huge influence, obviously in my first two books and my life now. Yeah, relearning that sort of connection to sound and the vibrations has been one of the most informative experiences just of my life, sort of in general, and one of the first moments where I sort of learned my own way of doing something because of my disability. Which, I do that so often now, where I’ll do something slightly different than is typically normal, or whatever it is, however it works for me and my needs at that time. But I still heavily use vibration equipment. I have a speaker that has a lot of vibration on it, if I’m listening to music or, I use bone conduction headphones when I’m listening to music or audio books even, because it sort of bypasses your ears, which it’s a really weird sensation when you’re getting used to it. But now I have those on like 24/7 pretty much. Yeah, I’m always listening to music. Like when I’m writing my ADHD brain needs something to latch onto that’s not just staring at my screen. Yeah, music’s definitely a big part of my life still, but my writing has now shifted from writing songs to writing books, and that is now my main creative outlet, for sure.听

Miri: So what is your, like, go-to writing playlist if you have one? Or d’you have different playlists based on the mood of the scene you’re writing?

Sydney: Yeah. So I always make specific playlists for whatever book I’m working on at that time, but I will definitely switch the mood depending on if I’m writing a sad scene, I’m not gonna be listening to a really like happy song. Um, but I typically listen to songs in foreign languages when I’m writing, because when I’m listening to songs in English, my brain tries to latch onto the lyrics.听

Miri: You just think of those words.听

Sydney: Yeah. And then I just think of those words and I can’t remember what I was typing, or I’ll straight up type the lyric into my book.

Um, that or English songs that I know the words a hundred percent so my brain’s just kind of ignoring them at that point. So like a lot of interesting Five Seconds of Summer songs, One Direction, Disney Channel original songs from my childhood movies. I’m not gonna focus on the lyrics ’cause I know them so well.听

Miri: Has there been a time when you’ve been writing a scene that a particular song came on and you’re like, “Yeah, that fits.”

Sydney: Yes, one hundred percent. There are specific songs that I will like forever associate with scenes or chapters in some of my books. Yes.听

Miri: Nice. Yeah, I, uh, is seven songs and they’re all, they’re all, uh, ’90s gangsta rap, plus one bbno$ song. Because in, you know, in music I don’t really listen to the lyrics. I’m very much like a metal, half of the music I listen to is just incomprehensible screaming, right? Um, which is also how I feel on the inside. So it fits. But I also have to not be listening to something that is, like, effortless to understand when writing something, like, you know, questions for an interview or something.听

Sydney: Yes.听

Miri: Thank you for talking to me today. Was there anything that you want to tell the listeners about?听

Sydney: Well, sort of on the topic of disability rep: my latest release, Someone to Daydream About, has an audiobook edition that is out now. You can get it from your local library, you can listen to it on Spotify, lots of other streaming platforms. And it is actually narrated by , who is a Deaf Broadway actress.

Miri: Nice!听

Sydney: And having that representation layered into the audio production was even more incredible for me as a Deaf author writing a Deaf book and having a Deaf actress narrate it. So if anyone is an audio book fan, I would definitely recommend checking that out.听

Miri: That’s a good point. So were you involved at all in the process of an audio book being created or was that full 鈥� is that something that an author is usually involved in, or is that usually just on the publishing side?听

Sydney: It depends. For me, pretty early on with my publisher for the hardcover said if there’s an audio book, I have opinions, I need to be involved. They ended up selling the audio book rights to a different publisher, which is pretty common, and thankfully in that contract they still put in all of that stuff about consultation. And so there were lots of conversations about how the ASL is gonna be represented, and different narrators and I actually got to go in and record the author’s note and the acknowledgements, so my voice is also in the audiobook. So yeah, I was really lucky to be very involved in the process, which is not true for a lot of authors, so I was very lucky.听

Miri: So how do you handle the ASL?听

Sydney: Yeah, so in the front of the book, there is a note about the ASL for how it appears in the hardcover, where pure ASL is in italics, and 鈥� which is simultaneous communication when someone is speaking and signing at the same time 鈥� is not italicized. So that’s just sort of treated as like regular speech. And in the audio book, there were a lot of conversations surrounding that, because you’re taking a visual language that was put on paper and now making it audio.

Miri: Yes.听

Sydney: So it’s very tricky. So the narrator, who is a very talented ASL performer as well, she recorded all of the ASL lines speaking, and then afterwards would do the sound of the signs, and then they laid that underneath the speech. And so when it’s pure ASL in the audiobook, you’ll sort of hear the sounds of the signing happening underneath that as a way to differentiate it from other regular spoken speech in the book.

Miri: Let’s Talk is an almost exclusively audio production as well, so when we interview Deaf students or teachers or whoever, it’s always a conversation of like how to do that most respectfully.听

Sydney: Yes.听

Miri: …and also comprehensibly. Because the thing that is the most artistically gratifying, or culturally gratifying, might not be the best experience for a listener and vice versa. Um, like we, we had an interview last year with a, a Deaf student who, the room was unfortunately very loud, so the interpreter was hard to hear, in a relatively unrecoverable way. So we had some conversations about how we were going to do this. Like how are we going to do the voiceover of an interpreter who is interpreting someone else?听

Sydney: Yes.听

Miri: Um, so it’s, it’s an interesting thing to think about ’cause it’s fundamentally inaccessible in a way that needs to be made accessible because it’s about accessibility and equality, so.听

Sydney: A hundred percent, those conversations are always kind of tricky, but also very important. ’cause I think getting on sort of the same page and everyone has different preferences and all of that stuff. So yeah, I was, I was really excited that they were taking my opinions into account.听

Miri: Yeah, absolutely.听

Sydney: Really listening to what I had to say about the audio book.

Miri: Yeah. Sweet! Thank you so much for coming in, talking to me this morning.听

Sydney: Thank you for having me.听

Outro

Miri: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Show and Host Introduction

Kylo: You are listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk!, is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and

听[Intro Music]

Zoe Liu: Hi, everyone! Welcome to “A Slice of Life”, the podcast where we go over the 抖阴福利导航 student experience. Talk about what life is like in Portland, discuss amazing life stories that people have, and tie it all back into our culinary journeys. Our individual journeys of learning how to cook, learning amazing recipes that you can make from simple ingredients right at home, and explaining how those recipes and the culinary journeys that we’ve all been on inspire us to achieve more, to be greater, overcome challenges, and chase our dreams! I’m your host, Zoe, and I’ve got my little co-host friend, Tucker, with me. He’s my guide dog and I’ll be taking you on our introductory episode. So, sit back, relax, grab a cup of tea, coffee, and let’s go right into A Slice of Life. The first thing you might be wondering is, ooh, what is the name of this podcast? It’s about the mission of the podcast and it’s a hilarious pun too on just the culinary journey. Ultimately, the goal of this podcast, the mission of this podcast, is to interview people and to have them share their amazing and unique life stories. It’s to inspire you. It’s to be about the student experience at 抖阴福利导航 because, while it may seem daunting, ultimately there are so many amazing things that you could do right here on campus and there are so many amazing recipes that you could do with the simple ingredients that you get here on campus. It’s easy to watch some cooking show and be like, “Ooh, this is fun!”, switch the brain off. But, it’s sometimes difficult; “when do I make this recipe at home?”, “Where do I get these amazing ingredients?”, “Where do I get , or a ?”, “How do I make this ?”… But, cooking doesn’t have to be super fancy. It doesn’t have to be like restaurant level quality. It just has to be simple. Something that you’re able to be proud of, something that you can take and be happy about sharing with friends, family, and loved ones. So, we’ve talked about the goals of the podcast, why the podcast is named the way that it is, and the fact that we’ll have guest hosts from episode to episode on the podcast. Today, it’s just me and i’d like to give you a little bit of an introduction to me, Zoe. Who I am, what my story is like, and how everything ties together back into the podcast. So, let’s get to know each other a little bit. I wanna give a quick note that it’s going to be a common thing on the podcast that the stories that we share aren’t always gonna be all sunshine and rainbows. Difficulties in life exist because like Tom Hanks and Forrest Gump said, “life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you’re gonna get.”. Sure, there’s some sweet parts to it. There’s a lot of really tasty stuff. But, there’s also the bitter, the things that we don’t enjoy nearly as much, the things that might shock us or that might make us just a little bit uncomfortable. So, I am going to give a trigger warning before any more difficult parts that are coming up. But, ultimately, even though there are going to be challenges and there are gonna be difficult parts of the story to hear, there are also going to be amazing resolutions to these problems. That’s what this podcast is all about. Life stories, overcoming challenges, chasing dreams, no matter how far away they seem, and inspiring you, the viewer, to believe in yourself. Just as the people around me have inspired me to believe in myself. So like I mentioned, my name’s Zoe and I was born in good old New Jersey, but I came to Oregon when I was two. So, I’ve really been raised in Oregon. I do consider Oregon my home and you can’t call yourself a true Oregonian without loving a little bit of that rain! So, from an early age, I was always really advanced; I had a really strong focus on academics. In elementary school, way back in even the third grade, I was starting to take more advanced courses, taking classes that were meant for older kids, and in fifth grade I ended up taking some university courses. That summer, it was Chinese, Algebra II, and then throughout middle school I was also jumping way ahead. Taking university courses, high school courses, even calculus. By the time I was in the eighth grade, I ended up taking the GED, getting my honors GED, and applying to Oregon State University where I was accepted into the Honors college program. I ended up deciding to follow my father’s footsteps and deciding to major in electrical engineering and it really was so wonderful, something I truly enjoyed. Now, at the same time that all this was going on, I was also training as a professional table tennis athlete. This is something I look back on super fondly, because I would spend hours playing with my dad, my brother, training with my coach, training with amazing people. I am actually several time Oregon State champion, and when I was around 14/15, I was nationally ranked. I believe I placed number eight in the under 15 category at the nationals, and I did pretty well in the under 21 category as well. Now as all this was going on, as I entered high school, as I was training in table tennis, doing academics and studying hard to get my bachelor’s when I was 18, I was actually having a pretty difficult home life. With my father, it was difficult because he was never at home a lot of the time, he had a lot of business elsewhere, and, though he really loved us, we just never really got to see him all that much. And, my mother was an extremely negative force of my life. There was a lot of physical abuse, emotional abuse, a lot of trauma associated with that, and it really just kept building up and up and up. Even though I had just gotten a teaching assistant position and I was really enjoying it. I just felt like there was nothing I could do. I just couldn’t go on anymore… So, 18 days before my 18th birthday, pure coincidence, I ended up making an attempt on my own life and it ended up leaving me without my vision and without my sense of smell. It was really difficult for a while, because I didn’t know what to do. Everything was pain, everything was different. There was so much regret. But, when I got back home, eventually, I started taking classes from this wonderful organization called the , which I will reference from time to time. The OCB, if you will. There are such wonderful people there, such wonderful teachers and students. Everyone has an amazing story. And I was really starting to get a hang of how to learn to live without vision. But, ultimately my mother pulled me out of those courses and pushed me back into academics a little bit too soon, I ultimately believed. But, even though it was difficult going back to campus without any vision and having to relearn how to live life, it was still a wonderful experience because there were so many people that were genuinely wanting to help me, genuinely concerned. And that’s kind of where the seed of the podcast was planted. The student experience and especially on 抖阴福利导航 campus, if you’re new, can be sometimes really scary. You don’t know what to do. You don’t know what to think. And. It’s hard to take that first step. For me, having lost my vision and my sense of smell, I did not step into the kitchen to cook for years. I would say, maybe half a decade even. But, with my focus on academics, it was really a lot and having to relearn life. I kind of started to just dissociate a little bit, breakdown. In 2022, at one year after getting my guide dog, Tucker, I ended up leaving home and striking out on my very own. Sure I was scared, but I ended up meeting my two current roommates who I come to think of as my adoptive siblings, my family. They’re ultimately the ones that have really inspired me to push myself forward, to do things that I might not feel as comfortable with. Because, even though I’m disabled. It’s not a disability, if you think of it merely as an inconvenience. Now, no journey is without mistakes and if you’re listening to this podcast, it’s likely that you’re living in Portland or that you’re a student of 抖阴福利导航 campus, and a lot of us have a rice cooker at home! For me, the first time that I started using , I was like, “I kind of know how to cook rice, but what about a Rice-a-roni? Yay!”. So, I cooked a cheddar and broccoli Rice-a-roni in my rice cooker and, having poured milk and butter in there, it ended up overflowing, going everywhere, and kind of ruining the rice cooker. Now, yes, that was a mistake. But, ultimately the way that I think about mistakes are that; mistakes are an opportunity to learn. They don’t become folly unless you consistently make those mistakes over and over again, without attempting to change. For me, that was very easy! Milk boils and really becomes frothy, and it does not go in the rice cooker! Now, even though I had started using things like the rice cooker and other appliances; for me, personally, I thought it was still impossible for me to use something like the stove without my sense of sight or smell. ‘Cause, I had thought for a long while, how will I know if something’s burning? How will I know if things are okay? I remember at the OCB when I was taking a meal preparation course; I was marinating mushrooms to make these vegetarian burgers, like these big portobello mushrooms, and I ended up like using a balsamic glaze that my teacher had gave me instead of a balsamic vinegar. The glaze had a lot of sugar in it, so when they hit the cast iron pan that I was using, it started to smoke and I didn’t even notice. But, it’s again, an opportunity to learn. It’s an opportunity to take a little bit of life and use that to your advantage. Since then I have not set off the fire alarm! I properly ventilate I use the stove fan. I make sure to use proper cooking times. I’ve gotten to this point where even if I’m cooking something on the stove, I can feel something with my spatula and tell about how done it is; whether it’s a meat or vegetable or like even a grain. So, yeah, these have been wonderful life experiences that I’m really excited to share with you on this podcast, A Slice of Life. If you’re able to take something away from this podcast, feel inspired by the stories that you hear, and maybe even find a favorite recipe. Next episode, that I’ll be doing very soon, is going to be focusing on going to a food pantry on campus because they’re fairly easy to find and, if you sign up, you can get a food box. I’ll go there in person, talk to some of the people waiting, maybe some of the people that are working there, do some quick interviews and bring home a food box, because I myself also volunteer at a food pantry and I know how important food security is to so many people. Using the ingredients from a food box, you can truly make some amazing, absolute bangers of meals. You wouldn’t believe it, but using in combination with some sauces and spices that you can buy for cheap, at like WinCo or Fred Meyer, I was able to make dishes as complicated as Osaka ginger pork, Japanese ginger pork, to Taiwanese Pork, to Corn Beef Hash, Salt Crusted Baked Potatoes… Delicious meals. My roommate, Kuma, who I’ve come to see as my adoptive oldest sibling, has shared some of the recipes that they’ve learned to make with food boxes as well. Amazing, delicious recipes like Beef, Bean, and Cheese Enchiladas with a Homemade Enchilada Sauce, or something that they’ll be sharing, if I feature them on one of the next episodes too, a Mediterranean one pot soup dish. It’s absolutely divine! Now, the important thing to remember here is that all these stories and all this cooking ties back into the student experience. It ties back into the things that you can do right here, in Portland, on campus, and using the simple ingredients that you can get on campus. I wanna be able to achieve the goals of this podcast to inspire you and for you to take a little bit more away from this podcast and enhance the student experience that you’ll be living through. So, having gone over the podcast, the goals of the podcast and introducing myself, I’d like to take us into the kitchen for our very first recipe. Today it’ll be just me in the kitchen doing a sort of Bulgogi Beef recipe. I want to mention to be safe with any utensils that you may use. Be safe with kitchen prep stuff. Always make sure to wear an apron, have proper sanitary conditions, and to always wash up. But, for a quick overview of some things that you’ll need, you’ll probably need two cutting boards or trays, you’ll want a nice sharp knife, maybe a few sauces that I’ll explain, a few vegetables, like carrots, maybe some bell pepper that I’ll be using in the recipe, along with rice, some beef, whether it’s sliced like slices of beef or ground beef, even ground pork or slices of pork tenderloin work as well, and, if you could get some of those ready and some Soy Sauce, some Rice Wine Vinegar, a little bit of, maybe some Sesame Oil and some spices then you’ll be good to go. So, I hope you’ll find it really lovely, tasty, and I’m excited for you to join me on the upcoming kitchen segment of our podcast. So, see you in a bit!

听[Intermission鈥

Time to Cook

Zoe Liu: Hi everyone! Welcome to the kitchen and the cooking segment of our podcast! So, a lot of people often ask me, “Zoe, what’s the thing that you do to relax the most?” Or, “you seem so optimistic. How can you just stay that way all the time?”. For me, a huge part of it is being able to cook, being able to make the things that I love, and being able to really experiment. Because, sure, cooking might seem like a difficult endeavor. It might seem really daunting at first. I mean, for me, the first time I stepped foot in the kitchen, I tried to make a Rice-a-roni in a rice cooker! I poured milk in and I didn’t realize that milk would boil over, so I ruined my rice cooker! But, it’s the little lessons like that that make the cooking journey so wonderful. You don’t have to go outside to buy expensive foods. You don’t have to think, “oh, I can’t do it at all!”, because cooking really is one of the most empowering things that you can do. If you’ve ever had bulgogi beef, this is a recipe very much inspired by that. It’s a very nice savory, but a little bit sweet, very comforting dish that you can make with ingredients that are easy to get and with not that much time needed. So, with that being said, why don’t we get started? The first thing I’ve done is I’ve laid out all of our ingredients, and this is one of the easiest things to do to make sure you don’t get confused or stressed. We have our beef, our vegetables, our spices, seasonings, sauces, and of course our rice. For me, I do love to use a good Basmati Rice and I have here a rice cooker. Now, if you don’t have a rice cooker at home, really easy to do, you can cook it in a pan as well. Just put your rice in, wash your rice three times thoroughly get rid of that starchiness, and then with your rice and a flat layer on your pan, you can pour water in. If you put your finger, like your index finger in, and you just touch the surface of the rice, if the water is up to your first knuckle, that’s about good. And then you can go ahead and start simmering it. Because I have a rice cooker I’m just gonna press down and it’s going to cook. So, moving over here to our vegetable prep station, we have here our vegetables, our sauces, and our seasonings. Now, a lot of the time, especially in college, there’s just not enough time to do anything. So, it’s hard to marinate your meat. But, you don’t need a really extra long marinade to have a flavorful, creative, and fantastic dish. Sometimes all it needs is just 10- 15 minutes in a nice flavorful and savory marinade. Today the marinade that we’re going to be using is very much Bulgogi inspired, but it’s a bit adjacent. First here, we have our spices. So, why don’t we go ahead and grab these. We’re going to put into our bowl just about a teaspoon of onion powder, a teaspoon of garlic powder. Go ahead and grab our garlic out as well. Just like a teaspoon of coriander. Now this part’s definitely not something that you need per se. But, I find that, especially if you’re using beef, the coriander really helps bring out the flavor of the beef, really makes it more robust. Then, of course, one of my favorite ingredients, cayenne; to give it that nice little kick. So, you’ve got our spices in our bowl. We’ve got our spices and we’ve got our sauces. But, we can also add in a few ingredients into our marinade here. For instance, what I’m going to do is I’m going to get my garlic, which I’ve already mixed up nice and fine, and I’m going to add about a teaspoon to this bowl. Now garlic helps bring up that lovely flavor and give it some wonderful aromatic flavor too. Now, we have on the side a little bit of ginger. It’s really easy to get ginger at the store and it’s really easy to get ginger puree or ginger paste as well. But, I personally love a bit of fresh ginger, and so you can just take your fresh ginger and you can peel off the skin, just that papery skin with like a spoon or a knife. Very easy to do. Now you can take your ginger and there are a lot of ways to prepare it. You can grate it, you can mince it nice and fine. You can even actually take some ginger, that you’ve peeled off the skin off of, and put it in the freezer. Have it frozen and, when you need it, you just pull it out, grate it up, and you’re ready to go. Here though, I’m going to give it just a nice, good mincing. Now, it doesn’t have to be exact, some nice coarse slices. ‘Cause it’s not a rocket science; it’s about making food that’s easy, but that’s also delicious, healthy, and that has the flavors that you love. Perfect! So, we’re gonna take just like maybe about half of this ginger, and add it to our marinade. There we go. Then we’re going to put set aside half the ginger as well. It’s nice because I like to have the ginger there, not only in the marinade, but also just to add to the pan to flavor all the other ingredients as well. So, now that we’ve got our spices set, we can pull out our sauces over here. I have a nice dark soy sauce. Now, it doesn’t have to be dark soy sauce it’s like a sweeter, thicker version of soy sauce. But, you can just use regular soy sauce and add a little bit of honey or brown milk sugar. It’s really up to you. We just pour in about a one and a half tablespoons. You can kind of eyeball it or change it to your desired quantity, because the best part about being able to cook at home is that you get to choose how long you cook things and how much of it there is. Just grab our whisk too, or you can use a fork to whisk this together if you like. Now we’ve got our rice wine vinegar. This helps give it that nice sour flavor. It balances out the flavor of the sugar. It helps bring out that savory and that sweet. So, we just add a little bit of that in there. That’s perfect. Then a good part of a Bulgogi Beef Marinade is actually something called “Gochujang”. Now you can find this at like your local supermarket; WinCo, Fred Meyer. It’s only three or four dollars. A lot of these ingredients are very cheap and they last a long time. Now “Gochujang” is like a fermented chili paste. It helps give it that nice flavorful kick. You can also use some red pepper flakes if you like to, but “Gochujang” gives it that really nice unique Bulgogi flavor, but you can’t really find anywhere else. So, let’s add some of that in. That’s lovely! If you don’t have rice, wine vinegar, or you don’t have any of these other ingredients, don’t worry. They’re very cheap and they’re very easy to get at the supermarket and they last a long time. So, we’re gonna go ahead and give this a nice whisk. That’s beautiful. Because we’re going to be marinating the raw meat, we’re not gonna be able to taste the meat as we cook it, and we’re not gonna be able to taste the marinade either. So, now is a good time to just take a fork and go ahead and dip the tines into the marinade and just take a little taste. Oh yes, that’s sweet, savory. Just that hint of sour too. That’s going to make a lovely marinade. And a lovely sauce too, because all this marinade is gonna go into the pan while it’s cooking too. Now, for our meat, I have here one pound of ground beef. It doesn’t have to be the whole pound. You can make however much of it you like. You can even use other meats like pork or chicken. But, the thing is, this is traditionally bulgogi beef. We’re just using some beef. You can even use slices of beef as well. But, for me as a college student and for the student experience, it’s really easy to just grab some ground beef and have it ready to go whenever I need. So, we’re going to go ahead and unpack it, and we’re going to add it to our marinade. Now, I have some vinyl gloves on, you just make sure that your hands are clean. But, now what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna give that meat a nice mix. Make sure to use your hands and mix it all in. Get those lovely flavors all working together. Get that seasoning all incorporated into the meat itself. Make sure to toss it, split it up, mash it all up with your hands because you want every single bit of meat to have that lovely flavor. We want a very even bite in flavor. We don’t want to just toss the meat in, let it not incorporate anything, and then you don’t get those even bites of flavor. And, that’s what’s really important here. See, the beef already is starting to get softer. It’s starting to absorb that marinade. So, our meat has been mixed and is currently marinating, and that’s the beauty about making food like this. You don’t have to marinate it for crazy amounts of time. Just give it a good 10- 15 minutes while you’re preparing your other ingredients, and that’s gonna give you loads of flavor; loads of saltiness, that sweetness, that sour, that we all know and love! Now that our meat is marinating, we can set that to the side and we can grab out our sharp knife and go ahead and prep the rest of our ingredients. Now over here I have one onion and I’m going to just slice it across the roots. We’re going to go ahead and discard those ends and peel off that papery skin. Sometimes there’s this also thin membrane like skin, it’s a little bit slimy, you don’t want that in your food either. So, if you feel that or you see that on your onion, go ahead and give it like a nice rub. Peel that off as well. Then we’re going to slice our onion into rings. Now we’re just going to give a nice, thorough mincing. It doesn’t have to be too fine. We’re not trying to make a paste here, but we’re just gonna dice it up nice and thoroughly. Now if you wanted to use onion powder too you could, but these onions are really easy to get for cheap at your supermarket or even at the food pantry. That actually is going to be a focus of this podcast, which is affordable and tasty cooking, and I’m going to be doing a miniseries in the future as well where I go to a food pantry, interview some of the people there, take home a food box and use those ingredients to cook a lovely meal. Because on campus there are actually a lot of food pantries that you can easily make use of. If you don’t make use of them, it’s a real shame because there’s just a lot of opportunities, a lot of ingredients that end up going to waste. We want to just eat healthy, make cheap, delicious food while still being able to focus on everything else that’s important in life. We’ve got our onion, all nice and finely chopped. So, we’re going to go ahead and grab a bowl, scrape up our onion and add it to our bowl. My two other vegetables that I have here are my bell pepper and my carrots. Now, the carrots you can buy them and peel off the skin and chop them up. But, sometimes it’s a little bit of effort. So, what I’ve done here already actually is I’ve bought some pre-sliced carrots. It’s been sliced in a manner called a “Julian”, being like thin matchstick. They’re already nice and prepped, they’re ready to go. So, I can just take those out and add them into my mixture whenever I need to. But, for our bell pepper, we’re gonna go ahead and slice off the top and bottom, and slice open the bell pepper. And, there are those like seeds in this side. Just take a spoon or take your finger. Go on and scrape those out. Then we take our bell pepper and we’re going to slice it into nice medium sized strips, because we’re not going to julienne this bell pepper. But, we’re going to chop it up into nice even pieces. That bell pepper is going to give you a nice, wonderful flavor. You can add other vegetables if you wanted to. Again, that’s the beauty of being able to cook and make your own food. You can decide whatever you want to add into this recipe and you can make any edits that you want. So, we’ve got our vegetables chopped up. We’ve got our onion, our bell pepper, our carrots, and all that leaves is, well, the cooking. So, we’re gonna give our hands a quick wash and head on over to our stove! Now you don’t need any fancy utensils or pots or pans. It’s nice to have a wok, but you don’t need it. Right now, all I have here is just a basic Teflon Frying Pan, and I’m gonna go ahead and add just a little bit of olive oil. You don’t need too much, just like about a teaspoon. Because, we already have that lovely flavor, those lovely oils coming from the beef itself, and we don’t want to make everything too greasy. We’ve got about a teaspoon of olive oil and we’re going to start heating that up over medium high heat. Of course we wanna turn our fan on. Now. It’s important to have good ventilation as well, whenever you’re cooking. Because, if you don’t, it’s sometimes easy to set off the fire alarm or to burn things. Me, myself, on top of not having any vision, like I mentioned earlier in the podcast, I actually don’t have a sense of smell either. There was one time I remember I was trying to make these lovely vegetarian burgers. I had these big portobello mushroom caps that I had marinated in some Italian herbs, soy sauce, and olive oil. Of course, I wanted to use a balsamic vinegar to add to the marinade. But, I didn’t have any, so what did I use? I used a . Now, for those of you that aren’t sure what that is. It’s like a balsamic vinegar, but it’s a lot sweeter. It’s got a lot more sugar to it. It’s a lot thicker. When you put it into a pan at high heat, that sugar will smoke. And, because I wasn’t able to smell it, that sugar and those mushrooms started to smoke and it ended up setting off the fire alarm. Now, it wasn’t a big deal because I moved it off the burner, turned off the burner, went outside, and made sure that everything was okay. But, you don’t want to have things catch fire or set off the fire alarm in a dorm or apartment or anything like that. So, it’s always good to make sure that we’re nice and careful when we’re doing something like this. So, our oil’s starting to heat up and we are going to go ahead and take our ingredients, and get them ready to add to the pot. Because, these things are gonna cook nice and quick and we don’t want things to burn. But, we also don’t want to undercook things. So, it’s important to have the timing nice and down. Now, the oil’s just about ready for the food to be added to it, so I’m gonna go ahead and grab a spatula. I am going to grab my onions and my ginger, and we’re gonna go ahead and add that to our pot. When it hits the pot, we want to hear that lovely sizzle. That’s how we know that everything’s just starting to come together. Now we’ve got a nice even layer on our pan. Let’s go ahead and grab our carrot. Let’s go ahead and add those in. It doesn’t have to be exact or anything. You can use whatever ingredients and how much of it you want. For me, I’m using about two thirds of a cup of Julianne carrots. We’re gonna give that just a quick stir, make sure everything’s incorporated together and a nice flat layer on the bottom of the pan. When we’re cooking, we don’t wanna move it around too much. We wanna give the ingredients time to warm up and cook. An old teaching instructor of mine once told me that, the marriage of the ingredients in French, it’s the “Mirepoix”. The marriage of the ingredients is really important, because the first few minutes are when the ingredients start to cook, combine, and all those lovely flavors start to release. As those onions are starting to sweat, let’s go ahead and take out our beef and our marinade. We’re gonna come back to our pan, and if you’ve already sliced your beef then this shouldn’t be too much of an issue for you. You won’t have to break up the ground beef or anything. But, because, we’re using ground beef today, we’re gonna go ahead and pour everything in there. Make sure to use your spatula get all that meat out, that lovely marinade. ‘Cause that marinade is going to turn into a nice, thick sauce. We want to go ahead and break up the ground beef with our spatula here. We don’t want a big, thick chunk of meat. My friends and neighbors are gonna be smelling this over the fence and they’re gonna be like, “Oh, Zoe! What are you making?”. And, I’ll be like, “Oh, my famous Bulgogi adjacent to beef!”. It really is so simple, even taking this to things like potlucks parties, people are always asking, “Wow, Zoe! How did you make this? It tastes amazing!”. And, I just tell them that it’s sort of my own little take on Bulgogi Beef. Nothing too special, nothing too wild. We’re using simple ingredients, we’re combining them in a way that really works. Really brings out the flavor in everything and ultimately tastes good and makes you feel good about eating! So, now we’re going to go ahead and give that beef a little bit of time to just cook through and wrap and brown. You could hear that marinade sizzling. We’re going to go ahead and give it a few minutes. And while we’re cooking the beef, let’s go ahead and check on our rice. Oh, perfect! Our rice is done! So, we’re going to go ahead and unplug our rice cooker. And, we are going to bring over our pot of rice. Now you might really be asking me like, “Zoe, I get it. Cooking is fun and everything, but why should I cook? What’s the point of it?” That’s a big reason for why I’m actually starting this podcast is because, I want to show people that there’s true joy not only in life. Not only in learning lessons and listening to the trials and the experiences of other people, but being able to have control over what you eat, over the things you do, and being able to really do things for yourself. After I lost my vision, I was sure that I’d never be able to cook again. Doubly so, because I didn’t have any sense of smell. After losing my vision, it was about, a good five years or so until I stepped into the kitchen and actually tried cooking for the first time. Of course, I wasn’t exactly sure what I was doing. But, I learned and I never gave up. Sure, there were discouraging moments like when my milk boiled over and made a mess, or when I cook things the wrong way and I thought to myself, “oh, dang, what a waste.” But, for the people around me to encourage me to tell me a mistake is not something bad. It’s an opportunity to learn. For people to tell me that, to tell me that I could do it, it really helped me move forward. It really helped me believe in myself. Ultimately, it’s given me a lot of confidence. Because, as someone without vision and as someone without a sense of smell, it’s hard to tell when food’s done cooking, or when it’s browned nicely, or even when you can just turn the burner off and let the residual heat finish cooking like a Benedict, or something. But, with practice, with experience and with persistence, cooking has really taught me that I can really do anything I put my mind to. So, now that our beef is starting to cook up nicely. We are going to go ahead and go back to our vegetables. Now, notice how I didn’t add the bell peppers straight away. That’s for a pretty good reason, actually. Bell peppers cook pretty fast and we don’t want them to get mushy or anything, so we’re gonna add them towards the end. But, we’re going to go ahead and grab just a little bit more of our ginger. Go ahead and add that in. Just a little bit left. Then we’re going to go ahead and add in some freshly cracked black pepper. Now we don’t even need to season it or add salt, or anything, because there’s gonna be all that lovely salt coming from the soy sauce, all that lovely flavor coming from your spices, from your rice wine vinegar, and especially that “Gochujang”. So, that’s gonna cook up really nicely. Now all we have to do is let it reduce down! That marinade, as you can hear, is bubbling away. As we cook it for just a few more minutes, it’s going to reduce down. It’s gonna thicken and it’s going to turn into that lovely sauce that we’ll mix in with our rice and turn into that beautiful Bulgogi Marinade. We’re gonna go ahead and grab our bell peppers now. If you wanted to add other vegetables too, like cabbage or, maybe, even some spinach, or kale, that would work too. Mushrooms would also work. Add in our bell peppers, and give that a quick stir. So, as our food finishes cooking, this is just a really good chance to think, reflect, and feel proud of yourself for being able to make a wonderful recipe like this. Because, yes, it’s easy to go outside, but it’s also expensive and it’s not as healthy. Sure, you can make cup noodles too, but ultimately there’s very little that can beat the lovely flavors of a home cooked meal. So, the beef has been cooking. It’s been a few minutes, and the sauce has reduced. It’s nice and thick. It’s glossy. And, we don’t wanna overcook our meat. We don’t wanna burn our meat. So, we’re gonna give it a quick stir. And we’re going to go ahead and grab our pot of rice. Now, we’re gonna turn down the heat to low, just keep everything nice and warm, but we don’t wanna burn our food. We’re gonna take our pot of nicely cooked rice, and we are going to go ahead and add that into our vegetable and meat mixture. Now, it’s as simple as just taking our rice- You don’t have to mix it, you don’t have to do it this way, but I just find that it’s a lot easier and especially if you have leftovers it’s very easy to just take all this put into a Tupperware, then just store it in the fridge. It’s a lovely lunch or dinner for the next day too. You could pour the mixture and the sauce over the rice. I just find that this way, it’s a lot easier on the run. That’s what a lot of this podcast is about; connecting it with the student experience and being able to do the best things to support being a student and whatever that busy life entails. Now, I’ve turned our burner off and I’m just gonna continue just mixing it, incorporating all those ingredients together. Our rice, our carrots, our onions. And, of course, for our final touch; you can top this with, if you have, scallions. But, right now on hand I have some sesame seeds. So, we’re going to go ahead and grab our sesame seeds, and just give that a nice shake. Then we give it one final good thorough stir. I know! I know your mouth must be salivating at the sight and smell of that lovely dish. Alright, so we have our final product and we’re going to go ahead and grab a spoon, and we’re going to give it a taste! Oh, and that’s lovely! It’s spicy, it’s savory! Mm! And the sesame seed give it that lovely crunch to finish it off. Well, I do believe that this is ready to be plated! So, if you’ve enjoyed this episode, I hope you’ll tune back in for the next episode of A Slice of Life with me, Zoe, and I’ll catch you for the next episode! Thank you all for listening!

听[Outro Music]

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 multimedia department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify Channel, , and

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Julie K. and Miri

Disclaimer

Asher: You鈥檙e listening to Let鈥檚 Talk! Let鈥檚 Talk! is a digital space for students at 抖阴福利导航 experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of 抖阴福利导航, 抖阴福利导航 Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, and on , and

Episode Intro

Miri: Thank you for tuning in for another episode of Let’s Talk! My name is Miri, and today we’ll be exploring the Oregon Association on Higher Education And Disability conference, more commonly known as ORAHEAD. ORAHEAD is a place for people who work in accommodations and accessibility to get together, discuss developments in legislation over the previous year, and swap advice, techniques, and stories with others from all across the state.
Over the weekend, I got the opportunity to talk with some of these incredibly passionate people, to learn about all the different paths they’ve taken to get to where they are today, and how the work that they do means so much to the students they get to work with.

Rosa Ramirez from EOU

Rosa: My name’s Rosa. I’m the Accommodation Specialist at Eastern Oregon University. As a student, I was working three part-time jobs. Full-time student, full-time student athlete. Spring term, my boss at the time just quit鈥攖ook off. And so I was basically doing that job, and then I was like, “Hey, I graduate. Can I apply for that job?” And they’re like, “Yeah, I don’t see why not.” And I did. So that’s how I got into this position. I’m starting my third year.听

Miri: You said full-time student athlete. What’s a little bit about that? What kind of athletics were you doing?

Rosa: I was a female wrestler for Eastern. I was a walk-on.听

Miri: Were you good?听

Rosa: No.听

Miri: No.听

Rosa: Oh, definitely not. I was okay. I could hang with the big dogs, but I was not a big dog.听

Miri: That’s super cool.听

Rosa: Yeah.听

Miri: How did you get interested in this kind of work in the first place?听

Rosa: I wasn’t super interested at first. I was just kind of looking for a big kid job, and this was the spot. I was like, “I’m already doing it. Might as well get paid.”听

Miri: Yep.

Rosa: That’s how I got into it. And then, as the year went on, I was like, “I really love helping students and making them feel welcome.” Funny thing, one of your podcast students was also a student at Eastern, and I worked with him a lot. It was really good to see him finally walk across stage, ’cause I did a lot of his stuff as a student worker. And then I got into the big kid spot, and I was still doing some of his stuff, and then finally saw him walk across his graduation stage. And that was pretty good.

Miri: That was the moment where it hit you, “Oh, I helped that happen.”

Rosa: Yeah. From then, it’s just, “I love helping students.” And I was like, “Wow. I, I helped鈥攁 lot actually. Just little things like that.听

Miri: How long was that?

Rosa: Just last year.听

Miri: Last year. Nice. Did you meet him that same year or before that?听

Rosa: No, so I was a student worker. I was doing a lot of his stuff, but I didn’t get the whole picture of who he was. I was just, ” Hey, you gotta do this audio text.” And I’m like, “Okay, cool.” I just didn’t know.

Miri: And that was working with us?

Rosa: Yeah.

Miri: That’s kind of a crazy coincidence.听

Rosa: Yeah, I know. When you were doing your podcast, I turned over to Taylor. She’s like, 鈥淵eah.鈥澨�

Miri: “It’s Miguel!”听

Rosa: I was like, 鈥淲hy? How’d you know?鈥� But I didn’t know, like what? That was kind of funny.

Miri: It’s a small world of not a whole ton of people who are actually doing it.

Rosa: Yeah.听

Miri: This is probably, what, a quarter of us in this room, in the whole state?听

Rosa: Yeah. It’s still a bunch of us too. It’s crazy.听

Miri: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you.听

Rosa: Yeah.

Claire Lingefelter from LBCC and Dana Gallup from OCCC

Miri: Thanks for having a quick little talk with me. Could you both introduce yourself and where you work?听

Claire: Yeah, sure. I’m Claire Lingefelter. I work at Linn-Benton Community College in Albany, Oregon. I’m an Accommodation Specialist and I work on our care team as well.

Dana: Hi, I’m Dana Gallup. I’m a Student Support Specialist and I work at Oregon Coast Community College. I’ve been doing so for seven years.听

Miri: So what got you started with being a student specialist?听

Dana: It was a little bit on accident.听

Miri: I’ve heard that a couple times.听

Dana: I moved out here for family reasons and needed a job in Ed, and was looking to switch gears a little. I’ve been a teacher and a sub and private tutor, and I would be like, “I would like to have one job, please, instead of three.” And then I got a job that was three jobs in one. But it’s okay! It means that every day is a little different, which is nice. I was really enjoying the transition to higher Ed. And I really come to love the kind of unique situation of a community college. It’s not just your standard idea of a college student coming straight from high school. I mean, I do have those, but I also have folks that are a lot older, that are established, have families, they’re looking to get a different job or a better job, or are coming back to school after years and years away, and there’s a lot of baggage with that. And I feel lucky to get to be part of helping them reach some of those goals.听

Miri: What are the differences in what students have to deal with if they are a fresh student, someone coming out of high school or early college, or someone who’s returning after a period of time, maybe even decades?听

Dana: I feel like there’s definite generational difference in how people view disability, especially. I find that there’s a tremendous amount of shame that people that are older carry. There was a lot of messaging that was very damaging that they were given when they were younger. One of the reasons why I’m glad to have kind of fallen into this work, and the reason why it matters a lot to me is, for example, members of my own family who went to school in the sixties. They didn’t get told, “Oh, you have ADHD, here are some accommodations that might help you have access to your education.” No, they were told to their face they were stupid, couldn’t learn, and would never amount to anything.听

Miri: Yeah.听

Dana: And I’ve seen the pain that they carry to this day.听

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Dana: It was always, when I was a classroom teacher, and even now in this role in accessibility services, it’s always been about, “I don’t want that to happen to anyone else. I don’t want anyone else to feel that way.” That’s why it matters to me.听

Miri: That’s so cool and absolutely fantastic, reasonable thing, too. I think this is something that a lot of people are saying, is they’re just tired of seeing people be treated badly. So they’re like, “This is a job where I can make people be treated respectfully and with the way that they need to be treated.”

Dana: Yeah. And so the older students, they’ll come to me with a fresh diagnosis, “Hey, I’m 40 something, but I just got diagnosed with ADHD.” And I’m like, “Awesome! Let’s talk about it. Have you experienced this and this and this?” Because everyone has different grab-bag of symptoms. And they’ll go, “Yeah.” I hear that all the time from other students, “ADHD, really? Yeah. Let’s try these. Have you heard of these strategies?” And we have a whole fun conversation. Well, funny to me. It’s fun because I’m a nerd about this stuff, you know. We have this whole conversation about it, and then you can sometimes, with some of those conversations, you can just see their shoulders sag in relief.听

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Dana: And they go, “Wow, this is so cool. I didn’t know that there were all these accommodations out there.” And I’m like, “Yeah! Let’s set ’em up for you.” Of course, not every conversation is like that or that easy, but those are the ones that kind of stick with me as, “Let’s keep doing this job, even if it’s a tough job sometimes.鈥�

Miri: And what about for yourself? How’d you get started in working in accessibility?听

Claire: I kind of, similar to you, moved out to Oregon because I had some changes in my personal life, and my family has moved out here over the years. Originally from the East Coast, and I was teaching middle and high school Spanish for four years on the East Coast. And then when I moved out here, was substitute teaching and also private tutoring and the whole nine yards. I live in Corvallis, Albany, and it’s just a smaller area, and there aren’t as many jobs teaching. I also was considering what else do I wanna change in my life? Thinking about other ways that I could stay working with students, but maybe try higher Ed. Community college has always appealed to me as a place to maybe teach someday. I like the idea of that space, having gone to community colleges myself, and this feeling that the students really wanna be there as a step to a four-year institution, or they’re coming to change, like you were saying.听

Miri: About people at community colleges鈥�

Claire: Yeah.听

Miri: 鈥攚anting to be there. And that being such a big change from high school, middle school鈥�

Claire: Exactly.听

Miri: 鈥攚here you’re forced to be there.听

Claire: Yeah. I love that. I think the shared motivation that a lot of students have to be there, it’s great. So this job opened up and I applied, 鈥榗ause I thought I might be a good fit. Especially because I got a master’s degree when I was still living on the East Coast, and it was focused on teaching students with dyslexia foreign languages. And 鈥榗ause that was one of my passions when I was teaching Spanish, I ended up with a lot of students with dyslexia in my class. I was in, sometimes, private institutions where nobody was telling me about accommodations. I was coming up with it myself. And members of my immediate family have dyslexia and stuff, so I already felt quite passionate about finding best practices for that. Coming into this job, I felt that was something I could continue to work with students on, and then partner with professors鈥�

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Claire: 鈥攆iguring out those best practices and good accommodations for students with dyslexia. That’s a lot of my work now with our students with print disabilities. I have members of my immediate family who also have a lot of mental illness and ADHD and other neurodivergence going on. And those who have gone to college in my family have had, at other institutions, negative experiences with disability services that enraged me, frankly. And so, um, yeah, I felt this is work that I am both interested in and have personal experience with, and also feel passionate about. It needs to get done, and I wanna do it well, and I still get to work with students in community college. They wanna be there, I wanna be there. I love the problem-solving. Every day is a new puzzle, and it really is like you said, it’s fun for me to talk about strategies and things. Even if you don’t have a diagnosis, you coming with a constellation of struggles, then we can figure out ways to accommodate whatever you’ve got going on. Even though often the circumstances are not great for students, it feels good to be able to put something in place that will help them be on a path to being more successful in the future.听

Miri: You said 鈥減rint disability?鈥� Sorry.听

Claire: Yeah, so we have students who will come with diagnoses of dyslexia, or other disabilities that might affect their ability to read or understand print with their eyes. And I just end up working with a lot of students who need audio books or some sort of assistive technology. Sometimes students with vision disabilities, although we have another member of our team who also works with us. Everything overlaps in our team. Yeah, a lot of students with both diagnosed and undiagnosed reading disabilities and related things come to me.听

Miri: Interesting. And, sorry, I think I cut off a question of yours.听

Dana: No, I just鈥攚hat was I gonna say? Oh, no, cut this out. Um, I feel like so many students come in to my office, and even if they’re not conscious of it, they just want to be heard.

Claire: Yeah.

Dana: They need someone to listen, and they need to feel like the person listening cares. I may or may not be able to do something about all the things that they have to tell me about, but I can try to point them towards other departments or other services that we have, and I can just, at the very least, be an active, sympathetic ear.

Claire: Mm-hmm.听

Dana: And I find that that’s a huge part of it.

Miri: Yeah. That seems like one of the most common things that students end up needing. Even if they aren’t given a direct accommodation through official channels, just having someone they can go and talk to and be listened to and respected, especially for high schoolers, often for the first time in their life.

Dana: I’m struggling, and I want someone to see me.

Claire: Yeah.听

Miri: Yeah, exactly.听

Dana: And I want that struggle to be acknowledged, that it’s hard, instead of being told that it’s some flaw of mine or something in my head.听

Miri: Mm-hmm.

Claire: I love it when students come in and either they have a diagnosis that’s new to them, or they’re just feeling a lot of shame about, like, “Oh, I feel like it’s such an imposition. I’m taking out people’s time just being here. I hate asking about accommodations.” And we talk about it in certain accommodations, and they’re like, “Oh gosh, seems like so much.” And I’m like, “Yo, this is so normal.”听

Miri: Yeah.听

Claire: Like, it is normal what you are experiencing in the spectrum of things I see all day. It’s so normal. It’s all in this spectrum of human existence. Normal.

Miri: Yeah.听

Claire: And they’re like, “Oh, okay, okay.” I love, sort of similar, they get to be heard and also be validated in their experience.听

Dana: Yeah.听

Claire: Yeah, of course, X, Y, Z thing that you’re dealing with is difficult, and that’s normal based on what’s happening in your brain and body.

Dana: I really try to push the “different operating system” metaphor. 鈥淭here’s nothing wrong with you. You’re running Mac OS in a Windows world.鈥� You know? 鈥淚t’s obnoxious because there’s some compatibility issues with the brain wiring that you have.鈥�

Claire: Right.

Miri: Mm-hmm.

Dana: And the way that things are designed. And that sucks.听

Claire: Yeah.

Dana: And try to think of it that way. And again, I have, like, my stupid pet analogies that I use with students, but I use that one a lot because I’ll have students who come in with that baggage and shame that I mentioned. Your brain wiring is just a different kind of brain wiring.

Claire: Right.

Dana: It doesn’t mean it’s less.

Miri: That really emphasizes that it’s not something wrong.听

Dana: Yeah.听

Miri: It’s just is something that is different.

Dana: There can be things that that brain wiring is really good at. Not to like invalidate the fact that it’s a disability. You are disabled by it. There’s things that are gonna be really hard, depending on the situation for you, and that’s awful, right? That’s a struggle that I never want to go at it from toxic positivity either. Like, “Oh yeah, your brain is a superpower!” For example, it can help someone with ADHD feel better to be like, “Well, you know what? You might have a lot of trouble with executive dysfunction, but I bet you’re amazing at coming up with a billion good ideas in a group project. You are like the ideas person, usually.” And they’ll go, “Yeah. I mean, I kind of am.” And I’m like, “Awesome.”

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Claire: Exactly.听

Miri: Awesome. Well, thank you guys both so very much. I love hearing smart people get really into something and just, like, be like, “Oh yes, this is something my brain likes,” and then just letting them go. It’s just, it’s one of the best parts of my job. Just listening to smart people will be smart for a little while. It’s the best.

Dana: Well, thanks for calling us smart. I appreciate it.听

Miri: You’re both smart, dedicated, and passionate people.听

Dana: And I’ll have to, at some point, connect with you about resources for dyslexia.

Claire: Oh, sure.

Dana: I got a couple students I’m working with, and I feel like I could know a lot more about it.

Claire: Sure. Yeah.听

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Claire: For sure.

Sarah Livengood from PSU

Sarah: My name is Sarah Livengood. I work at Portland State University. Full title is Assistant Director for Alternative Access at the Disability Resource Center.

Miri: What got you started in working in accessibility?听

Sarah: I’m one of those students that took years to get their degree. It took about 20. I went to 抖阴福利导航 right away after high school. But then there’s this trajectory, “I gotta quit school ’cause I gotta go work, and I can’t do school.” Just a pretty normal path. I decided at some point in my mid thirties, I finally built up the confidence. “I want to go get my master’s degree, become a mental health counselor.” So I gotta get the bachelor’s outta the way.

Miri: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: Enrolled back in PSU, then quickly found it was so hard to keep a job and do that. I was just running into the same thing, and I’m like, “Well, why don’t I get a job on campus?” So I got a job in the Disability Resource Center. I’ve actually worked there for, like, 10 years. Started as a student employee.听

Miri: Yeah. The second person I’ve talked to was, “I’ve started out as a student employee,鈥� and then just kind of really liked this.”

Sarah: Yeah, no, it was really cool. By the time I was graduating, they had an opening for front office assistant. So I was like, “Oh, I wanna stay.” I got the job, became the office manager, and by that time, I was pursuing my master’s degree and stayed there.听

Miri: What’s your master’s in?听

Sarah: My master’s in Clinical Mental Health Counseling.

Miri: Nice.听

Sarah: I still have aspirations to be a mental health counselor, but I love the work that I’m doing at the DRC, so I don’t think I can leave it just yet.听

Miri: Yeah.听

Sarah: Yeah.听

Miri: So what is your favorite part of doing this? What is the thing that gets you out of bed and to a very emotionally draining and, uh, resource-difficult job?

Sarah: Yeah, I mean, it has changed over time. In the beginning, I was like, “I need money. I’m needed, and I have a hard time leaving jobs. Great team to work with.鈥� But as I moved up into positions, like I was an access counselor for many years, a Disability Services Counselor, and that’s where I really started learning how to interpret the law, really think critically about barriers and students’ needs, and pair them up with accommodations. I was like, 鈥淭his is really cool.” I’m really proud of it, that we are doing it, that I’m doing it. And then, as I’ve gone up, I’ve started working with faculty more often. So all that coordination, yes, it can be really hard and people hate you, but I think it’s just so cool once you finally get something going. But I think the most centered kind of response is I believe higher education is to upward mobility, identity and all these things people deserve. If accommodations are part of that, then I wanna make that accessible to people too.听

Miri: And your master’s is in mental health?听

Sarah: Clinical mental health.听

Miri: Yeah. How much of what you see in your day-to-day is mental health-related disability versus, like, physical injury-related disability?

Sarah: Mental health is huge. I think it represented 95% of our students. Not that it was the only disability, but it was the most prominent. Students had mental health disabilities, but they also had chronic anxiety or depression, or any mental health condition was the largest represented. I believe it probably still is.

Miri: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I still see a lot of that. I see a lot of chronic health, chronic medical conditions, and neurodivergence is pretty big now too.听

Miri: What is the line between getting mental health accommodations versus just neurodivergency accommodations, even in the approach, if the end result is the same?听

Sarah: Yeah. I try to ask students, “Okay, you’ve disclosed you have such-and-such disability. Tell me, when that’s active or when it’s symptomatic, what is that like for you in the classroom setting?” I go straight to the barrier. We think of the accommodation and we match it up with that to address that specific thing. I guess you could say maybe mental health disabilities are gonna attract more things like flexible attendance or breaks during class or turning your camera off, versus neurodivergence might be alternative to presentation or alternative to group projects. But we don’t like to do that in this field. We don’t like pigeonhole. My training has very much been, “Stick with the barrier” and go from there.听

Miri: Nice.听

Sarah: Yeah.听

Miri: That’s really cool to hear.听

Sarah: Yeah.听

Miri: One of my favorite parts about doing this is getting to hear smart, passionate people talking about the thing they are passionate and knowledgeable about. I’m always lucky to get to talk to people who are like that.听

Sarah: Yeah.听

Miri: Thanks for your time.

Sarah: Oh, no, thank you.听

Miri: And I am very looking forward to trivia.听

Sarah: Let’s do it! I hope you enjoy trivia. I love it. It’s like the fourth or fifth year I’ve done it here at the conference. I need to release, like, my greatest hits.

Miri: What started you doing trivia?听

Sarah: Well, I started doing trivia as a side job many, many years ago. I was just looking for part-time work and going to it, like bar trivia.

Miri: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: I would see people host. I had a friend that was hosting, actually a neighbor and a friend. It just looks fun. I bet I could do it. And one day I was like, “I wanna try it.” And I loved it. The first time was scary鈥斕�

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Sarah: 鈥攁nd I was really shy, but it’s more get to play music and people have so much fun. And I wasn’t ever really writing the questions back then. I was working for a company that provided questions. I was just speaking and being a good host and entertaining. I like to do that.听

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Sarah: I guess the music was the most fun, like pairing up the music. A lot of teams liked when you would give them hints or you would kind of make a theme going on and tie the music in. So that was really cool for me. Yeah, and then people get word that you’re a trivia host, and they’re like, “Well, can you do it for everything?”

Miri: We love doing trivia.听

Sarah: Yes. Yeah, no, it’s fun. I love hosting. I’m looking forward to it.听

Miri: Awesome.听

Sarah: Yeah.

Miri: Thank you so much.听

Sarah: Yeah.

Miri: I’m ready to win!

Sarah: You’re welcome. Yeah, do it.听

Miri: Awesome. Thank you so much.

Taylor Smith from EOU, Sarah Liven at PSU, and Jewls Griesmeyer-Krentz at WU

Jewls: The future is accessible. We need to envision a way to make that possible and tangible and something we can work towards. Something beautiful and attainable. That’s everything to me.听

Miri: And that could be the soundbite. That’s the start of the episode.听

Sarah: Yeah. You should have pressed record.

Miri: I did.听

Sarah: Oh, good.听

Jewls: Oh, okay then. There you go. One of my favorite things when I’m working on planning a conference鈥� and one of the things I’ve tried to do, as ORAHEAD president鈥攈as been to try and build community. If I could think of one thing that’s the most important for me, has been to build community and build vision and purpose around that. So when we do a conference, having that overarching theme we’re working towards, to me, has been really important. It’s the last couple of conferences, there’s been a theme that’s driven it, and I like that. I like being able to look back and say, “Oh yeah, that was the one that worked on community,鈥� or 鈥渨orked on building an accessible future鈥� and having a purpose, a mission that we could grow teeth with.

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Jewls: Or “That was the one that was the day after the election last year.”

Miri: Yeah. I was hearing about that before the conference from Phyllis, and she was like鈥斕�

Sarah: It was weird.听

Miri: 鈥攊t was an energy like she’s never experienced before.听

Jewls: I still get chills when I think of that鈥攕tanding up in front of this room full of people and the looks on everybody’s face. We’re all just devastated. And yet, I can’t assume everybody’s political position, and I have to figure out something to say because I have to name it. I can’t just let that go without saying anything. So I just say, 鈥淭his is hard. This has been rough. And whatever side of the political spectrum you’re on, we’re all hurting.鈥� And we gotta name that, because we all have to be together in this. No matter what, we all have students at our heart, all working towards the same goal, and that is access and accessibility for students. We’re all on the same mission. So how do we do that?听

Miri: Yeah. No matter which side of the political spectrum you’re on, whoever you voted for, if you are doing this kind of job, you don’t want to see the resources for your students disappear. They’re the reason you do this, I would assume. I mean, nobody’s doing it for the pay.

Jewls: Yeah.听

Miri: And it’s because there are students who we care about and people who we want to see live their fullest lives. If those reasons or resources are taken away, then that makes everything harder and a little bit sadder.听

Jewls: It does. And we set aside time for just collective grieving at lunch, or just a space for that. I think that was important. Setting the tone for community is huge, because if we don’t have the trust of our colleagues, if we don’t know our colleagues and can’t rely on them to have input and answers for the tough questions when they come up, we’re in this by ourselves鈥� and this is hard work. This is hard work in hard times. That’s what I’ve been the most interested in. That, for me, is what I can focus on. The thing that I can do.听

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Jewls: To build an accessible future is to build a community.听

Miri: And it’s an incredible thing. It’s an impressive thing. It’s hard to do, and as obviously as, you know, playing everything and getting everyone to do the same thing, care about the same thing, communicate in a meaningful way.听

Jewls: Well, and even harder is finding a way to build a sense of belonging when you don’t agree. Ben McBride talks about expanding the circle of human concern to include those people that we don’t necessarily agree with. But we can find some sort of common ground, or we can build a sense of belonging with or find a bridge. And I think that’s for the work we do, it’s hugely important. We have a lot of professors that we work with that do not agree with us. Full stop. We need to find a bridge. And in order to do that, we need to expand the circle of human concern to include them and their concerns. What are they concerned about? Because most likely, they also have students and student concerns that are at their center. They are also interested in student learning. So, how do we build that bridge?

Miri: And for the record, what’s your name and where are you from?听

Jewls: Oh! Sorry鈥擨 just went woobooloo!听

Miri: No, that was amazing.听

Jewls: Yeah, I鈥擨鈥擨 talk…

Miri: And we listen. That’s the point.听

Jewls: My name’s Jewls Griesmeyer-Krentz. I use she/her pronouns. I’m the Assistant Director of Accessible Education Services at Willamette University, Pacific Northwest College of Arts specifically, and I’m also the president of the Oregon Association of Higher Education and Disability鈥擮RAHEAD. Happy to be here.听

Miri: We have with us also two more excellent, brilliant people. If you could introduce yourself, tell us where you’re from and what you do?

Sarah: I’m Sarah Livengood, Assistant Director for Alternative Access at Portland State’s Disability Resource Center. I’m also the treasurer on the ORAHEAD board.

Miri: Nice.听

Taylor: And my name’s Taylor Smith, the Assistant Director of Disability Services at Eastern Oregon University.听

Miri: Nice. So how did you get started doing disability advocacy?听

Taylor: Great question. I started out, actually, as a student worker within our learning center on campus. And throughout my experience in being a student at Eastern, I had a lot of great mentors. And in terms of my kind of professional career path, I was uncertain about what I wanted to do in the future. The one thing that continued coming back to me was I knew that I wanted to work with people, and I wanted to be in a role where I could serve people and help.

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Taylor: That was a guiding thought for me. And like I said, I had great mentors that continued encouraging me about finding my path and going towards something that I was passionate about. I was encouraged to apply for the accommodation specialist position in our office, worked in that role for a couple years, and it was awesome. I gotta work one-on-one with students and really get to know students on a deeper level, and understanding some of the struggles or the barriers they were experiencing. I just knew that I wanted to continue with that work.

Miri: Nice. And the role you have now鈥攈ow has that furthered that?听

Taylor: Yeah. So I am doing a lot of the intake meetings with students.听

Miri: What is an intake meeting?听

Taylor: It’s a key component to understanding limitations students with disabilities face and understanding what challenges they may experience in the academic field. So, in an intake meeting, there’s a lot of questions, lot of getting to know the student鈥攚hat they’re passionate about, what their future goals are, courses or field of study they want to look into. It’s really just having a conversation, engaging with a student, and getting to know them.听

Miri: And you get to do that as a primary part of your job now?听

Taylor: Yes.听

Miri: Nice.听

Taylor: And it’s my favorite. Love getting to work with students, getting to know them, be a part of their path to their future. And yeah, just understanding what kind of makes them tick and what gets them excited about their future.听

Miri: That’s super cool. I don’t work student-facing鈥攐r at least not the public student-facing. I just work with our student advocates who are already a paid group in the school. So hearing from people who work with students at that level is always super interesting, because that’s just not something I get to see in my day-to-day job, which is looking at a bunch of waveforms and putting ’em together, fixing transcripts and stuff. So that’s super cool.听

Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I started out with some of the more technical and technology components to the position and understanding some of the accommodations that were available to students, which I think was helpful in transitioning to communication and understanding student role of just engaging with students on a more one-to-one basis. But yeah, I definitely love the interactive process and just getting to know students on a more personal level and getting to understand what they enjoy doing on campus, what they’re learning in their field of study, and what their hobbies are and just trying to figure out ways that I can best support them in whatever their future goals are.

Miri: And what got you started in this whole thing? Which I guess I’ve asked about before, but鈥斕�

Sarah: That’s okay. You mean in the field of disability services?听

Miri: Yeah. Or what got you to start in the position you are now?听

Sarah: Um, well, a very long process, but鈥攁ctually it’s kind of funny. I’m a long-life adult learner. Completed my bachelor’s degree鈥擨 think I was like 38. And while I was doing that, I decided to get a job on campus at Portland State and got a job at Disability Resource Center. And Jewels, with us today, was my supervisor. She hired me as a classroom assistant to assist blind students in the classroom, providing descriptions of things written on the board and things in class.听

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Sarah: I did some alternative formats work too, which I loved鈥攂eing able to remediate documents. And then from there, I became office manager and access counselor consultant. And I threw in my hat for the Assistant Director, 鈥榗ause I was like, 鈥淭here’s something about this job that I just didn’t wanna leave.鈥� I really liked my team, which is completely different from where I started. But like Taylor was saying, I just really like being a part of a student’s journey. And then just the more I learned about the ADA and all the different policies that you bring together鈥攜ou couple that with鈥�

Miri: Like Title II, which we know now.听

Sarah: Title II, which we learned today in trivia. You take all of these policies, and the law, your built-in compassion and sensibility, and your wanting to help that student achieve what they wanted. You use all of that to come up with a set of accommodations. It sounds so ridiculous, but it’s so much more than that. That’s the big drive that’s really kept me here. I joined the board鈥攇osh鈥�

Miri: The ORAHEAD board?

Sarah: The ORAHEAD board… what, 2017 maybe?

Jewls: Oh, like maybe a year or two after I did?

Sarah: Yeah.

Jewls: Maybe?

Miri: Were you still both working at PSU then?

Sarah: Uh-huh.

Jewls: Yeah.听

Sarah: And one of our coworkers comes out of her office. She’s like, “Would anybody like to join the ORAHEAD board as treasurer?” And I was like, “Me.” Because when I was office manager, I was a financial person. I mean, admittedly, that’s a good resume builder. You know? And I was like, this drive of, 鈥淚 wanna be in this field鈥攁nd yeah. I wanna be on a board.鈥� So I became treasurer, and I’ve been here ever since, ’cause nobody wants to be the treasurer.听

Jewls: And it’s because you do it amazingly well and nobody can measure up.

Sarah: Oh, I don’t know about that. But being on the board is really fun. You get to plan these awesome conferences.

Jewls: It’s amazing.听

Sarah: Yeah, that’s the best part. And then just learning, getting to meet people on a regular basis. We have board meetings and we discuss the conferences, but we also discuss initiatives we wanna do. And, that’s just been really fun. I don’t know if that answered your question, but鈥�

Miri: Perfect.听

Sarah: Yeah. Thanks.听

Miri: So how did you get involved in both in ORAHEAD and disability advocacy?听

Jewls: Oh, boy. Okay. I had a very circuitous pathway. I started my higher education journey as an acting major down at USC. Ended up coming back to Portland because LA is an evil place when you have anxiety, ADHD, and a lot of other things. So I went to Portland State and I got my degree in Psychology. But I decided I wanted to be a historian and ended up in a master’s program at Portland State for History鈥攕pecifically medieval history. I was doing Latin. I actually taught Latin at 抖阴福利导航 for their non-credit program. And I was working on my master’s鈥攄one all my coursework, done my comps, was almost done with my thesis. Then I got divorced and sick. Very sick. And it became clear my pathway I had planned for myself鈥攖o get my PHD and become a professor of History鈥攚as not possible, because that would’ve been moving. And I had two little kids at the time when I was a single mom and had an abusive husband. Ex-husband. It was a very difficult time. So I had to rethink things a little bit and in thinking about it, I always knew I wanted to teach. But what I found that I loved the most as a graduate teaching assistant, was when I worked one-on-one with the students with disabilities. I loved that. So I did a right turn and ended up shifting my master’s degree鈥攎uch to my federal financial aid chagrin鈥攖o a master’s in rehabilitation counseling. And decided I was going to be a rehabilitation counselor and work with students with disabilities. That’s when I got sick and had to stop working. I did finish school, but I couldn’t work for a while and eventually got to the point where I could work, got the job at Portland State, and do my dream job working with students. I love working with students. I love figuring out what works, thinking outside the box, getting to use the creativity and the excitement of having something that like鈥攜eah. God, there’s nothing better. Like, damn it, when it really works, it works, and it’s so good. And when it doesn’t, it can be heart-crushing. But when it works, it’s so good. Now I love helping others to help others. That’s my new favorite thing. There you go. That’s my circuitous pathway.听

Miri: From everyone I’ve talked to this weekend, there’s been almost no direct pathways into this. Almost everyone I’ve talked to has been like, “I was studying something at this school. I started doing student employment, then just kind of fell into this role. I’d realized that it’s what I was meant for.” Or someone who’s like, “Yeah, I was planning on doing computer science and I was getting a degree in that. Then I realized that was really stupid, and the way the teachers talked to people was really mean, so I wanted to fix that.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.听

Miri: Like, just a lot of circuitous roots into finding this.听

Sarah: Yeah.听

Miri: Which is super interesting, ’cause that’s all about people discovering their passion for this instead of something that they wake up one day when they’re eight and decide they want to do. I’m sure there are a few of those. But it’s really interesting how this is something that sticks to people once they start doing it.听

Jewls: It is. Once it grabs hold of you, there’s very few of us that let go of it. We get burned out because we are vastly under-resourced. I don’t know that there’s any single one of us that would say that our offices have enough resources.听

Miri: And how much does having the ORAHEAD community of like-minded and similarly under-resourced people from other education centers help with that under-resourced, do you think? Like, being able to get people together and combine thoughts and ideas鈥攈ow much does that affect what you’ve done or what you think other people have been able to do?

Jewls: It makes all the difference. I don’t think that we could do what we do without the think tank and the feel tank.听

Sarah: Feel tank. Yeah.听

Jewls: That is ORAHEAD. Yes, we share ideas, but we also share the moments of joy and the moments of exasperation that come with our jobs. It’s a think tank and a feel tank.

Sarah: Yeah. I look at like, “Why have I been at PSU for 10 years?” All of my jobs, I stayed at for long periods of time because it’s hard for me to leave a job. It’s hard for me to disappoint people. I don’t wanna quit. I’m needed and can’t leave because whatever. But having a community, like ORAHEAD, being, “Wait a second, no, no, no, no. I’m in this job because this is cool. What we’re doing is pretty awesome. No, we’re going to fight back against these rigid policies of schools and instructors. We’re going to provide accessibility鈥攁 pathway for students that are trying to achieve the same thing we did in our own educations.” The fight is definitely a big part of it.

Jewls: Mm-hmm.听

Taylor: I think it’s been really valuable to connect with other professionals in the field. There’s a lot of times we’re navigating really complex systems and policies and processes. Every student we’re working with is unique. They have many strengths, many different backgrounds, and ways of navigating the world, so no two students are alike. Every student that comes into our office is a new opportunity to understand something you’ve never understood before, right? It can be challenging because you don’t necessarily have all the answers right away. And having ORAHEAD and people that get the work, they understand the work, has been invaluable and just navigating really complex situations and finding ways to advocate and help students get what they need.

Miri: Yeah, that was something that was one of the presentations earlier鈥攁 group discussion about how to deal with different situations. So different people from different schools came up and asked the group, “Hey, this has been a weird situation that has come up in my professional work. How should I deal with this? What is the right answer?” Having a space where you can ask that question and get different, sometimes contrary answers, is important. Because if you just ask one professional, they’re gonna come at it from only their perspective. Especially the sizes of different schools鈥攍ike 抖阴福利导航 is way bigger, has way more resources than a ton of other community colleges in the state鈥攋ust because we are based in a city of over a million people with, like, 50,000 students鈥斕�

Jewls: Mm-hmm.听

Miri: 鈥攅very year. As opposed to somewhere out in eastern Oregon or southern Oregon. Or southeastern Oregon, where there’s approximately one person per cactus.

Taylor: That’s another interesting thing about these conferences too. Specifically, we are all coming from higher Ed, whether that’s a community college or a four-year or private institution. There’s someone that’s likely going to have a similar setup as you. And so, kind of what you were just explaining, Eastern Oregon University doesn’t necessarily translate to 抖阴福利导航, right?

Miri: Mm-hmm.

Taylor: Because 抖阴福利导航 is serving thousands of students, and our population is not as big as that. But in conferences like this, we still get the opportunity to connect with schools that are more of a similar size and demographic. So it’s cool to be able to have this as a resource and have that connection with other professionals that you don’t feel so alone or isolated in the work you’re doing.

Miri: Yeah.

Taylor: And sometimes it can happen that way. I know, just in universities in general, there’s a lot of silos鈥攁 lot of people that are just on their own doing their own work and moving through it. With our roles specifically, it’s so much student engagement, so much faculty engagement and staff and moving parts. There’s just so many different aspects to the job you have to be in the know about, and having multiple moving parts makes it more complex. Being able to, like I said, getting to understand different perspectives, get more ideas from professionals that may have had more experience in that specific situation鈥攐r they’ve navigated something similar鈥攇etting varying viewpoints to problem-solve through those situations has just been really awesome.

Jewls: Yeah. It is amazing to be able to connect with other people from other universities that have the same type as you and get those perspectives. It’s also interesting to engage with those that don’t have the same type and you can get some other perspectives. Regardless, it’s like I said yesterday morning, “How many people in our lives do we have, especially if we’re in a one-person office or a small office, do we engage with on a daily basis that get it?”

Sarah: Yeah.

Jewls: I mean, my wife is awesome. She really is.听

Miri: Let’s hear it for wives.听

Jewls: I mean, like, she’s amazing, and I honestly say as wives go that aren’t in the field, she gets it as much as she can. But she doesn’t get it the way that my colleagues here get it. And to be able to engage with other people that get it鈥攁nd I don’t have to explain it鈥攆irst, there’s this shorthand to it. To be able to let that part go when there’s that one professor that does that thing, right? And you go look at me in the eyes and, “Oh, yeah, I know that one.” Right? And it’s just like, “You see me.” That’s huge.听

Sarah: I think you were talking about the Listserv in real time, hosted by former board member Jeffrey Larson. But, that is just a true example of how critically we have to think about the issues we do. We can’t just look it up in a book and go, “Okay, there’s the answer. We’re good.”

Miri: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: We have to take so many things into perspective鈥攜es, the law, the student’s identity, the specific school you’re working with, the instructor and their whatever.听

Miri: Your budget.听

Sarah: Your budget. So many things. You have to take all, and that’s the really cool thing about this job. That is how you do individual justice for somebody, ’cause you have to think about all that. That’s these conferences.

Jewls: Yeah.听

Sarah: That’s where you feel that.听

Miri: Mm-hmm. I like how this conference has fairly equal representation between different sizes of schools. I mean, for some reason 抖阴福利导航 sent about 37 people. Um. But, like, the big schools鈥擮regon State, University of Oregon鈥攈ave the same number of voices in this room as smaller schools, like Reed, or very small schools like rural community colleges. And having equal voices who are able to raise different levels of concern is important and interesting, because a big school can be like, “Oh yeah, throw money at it.”听

Sarah: Uh-huh.听

Miri: There’s hoops that they have to jump through and people who are like, “Oh, I don’t want to spend that money.” But, there is the money to spend, as opposed to some very small schools where they’re like, “Well, our budget is $4 and most of this sandwich.” Which is a thing we have to think about as disability advocates and people who are trying to make things easier for our students, even though that costs money sometimes. Like getting interpreters for classes, which will be $400 a week per class. Or getting extra accessible technology in classrooms or online, which can be who knows how much. Which is a different level of struggle for every level of education鈥�

Jewls: Mm-hmm.

Miri: 鈥攊n our state. And having that all roughly equally represented here has been really interesting to see and hear.听

Jewls: Mm-hmm.听

Miri: So that’s a valuable piece of this that is underappreciated from anyone who doesn’t know.听

Jewls: Yeah. That’s part of what keeping the price and the location accessible has been a focus of the board as we’ve planned this. That’s something that certainly we’ve talked about and a concern as we plan what we’re doing. Like how much are we paying a keynote if we do this? And can we do this? What are we doing? How many meals do we provide? If we do that, can we do this? How much can we charge? It’s a lot of thought.

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Jewls: But we wanna make sure there can be people attending from all of the different听 colleges. That’s a big deal.

Miri: So, there is one more thing I wanted to ask. You mentioned that you did classroom assistance for blind students.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Miri: Was there special Ed training you had to go through? To be able to do that? What was that like?

Sarah: Yeah. So it was facilitated by none other than Jewls Griesmeyer-Krentz.

Jewls: That is indeed true.听

Sarah: It was actually a day-long training. We learned about the history of the ADA, of course, but we learned a lot about blind culture. And I’ll let Jewls speak to it too, because she was a creator of the training materials. But I remember the training鈥攚e got to learn, “Hey, these are the core things you’re going to do and this is how you do them.” We had blind students attend the training so we could work with them directly. A lot of guidance from Jewls. But yeah, why don’t you talk more? You could probably talk better about what that training was like.

Jewls: For me, it was really important that that training, first, have a critical foundation in disability studies essentially. But basically a social model so the classroom assistants were not entering into it from a pity perspective or engaging in microaggressions. It would be very easy in that role to do that. So we听

Miri: What would that be like?听

Jewls: Um, well, for example, if the professor asked a question of the student, the classroom assistant might butt in an answer. Or more frequently, the professor might ask the classroom assistant what the student’s name is鈥攖he classroom assistant might just answer what the student’s name is instead of not say anything and let the student answer. That’s an example of a microaggression that would happen frequently. So we would practice on communication, problem-solving, and boundaries. I tried to think about what were all the things I wish I knew when I started helping people and developed a training around those things and included ways to be a human guide that made sense and ways to work with somebody. Mostly, I included the blind students to speak for themselves about what worked for them and what didn’t. I think that’s what made the most sense.听

Miri: What do descriptions for a blind student look like in a classroom setting鈥攅specially in something more complicated, like biology or chemistry, whether it could be color-coded diagrams, for instance?听

Sarah: So, yeah, it’s also a good idea to work with instructors to say, “Hey, when you’re writing things on the board, make sure you’re describing them,” in a very general sense. A classroom assistant might be available to say, “Oh, the instructor is drawing a chart on the board. It’s got two columns with headings, A and B at the top, and then on the sides we have X and Y,” and filling in things. And that’s where it can get a little lost, because if you have a classroom assistant who is a Humanities major鈥攍ike an art major鈥攁ssisting for somebody in a chemistry class, there might be some gaps there, right? Maybe the instructor has written something down completely foreign to them, so鈥斕�

Jewls: Mm-hmm.听

Sarah: It’s great to be able to match a chemistry major to a student, but that’s not always possible. You have what you have as far as student employees. That’s why classroom assistant should be providing visual descriptions or descriptions of things that would otherwise not be seen by the students鈥攕o things they’re writing on the board, things happening in the classroom that could use some contextual information about. Like, “Oh, everybody’s got up and went to this side of the room, so we’re gonna do that too.”

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Sarah: If they’re watching a video, maybe they need to know that video includes a person with a very sad face while they’re describing something. We try to get universal design a lot, ’cause there’s so much that can be left out. Audio descriptions of films, asking instructors to be a lot more descriptive of what they’re writing on the board鈥擨’m sure you have more.听

Jewls: Yeah, there’s a lot of working with instructors directly to plan ahead so that there’s less reliance on the classroom assistance and more reliance on universal design. But classroom accessibility and classroom access, where there’s a gap, classroom assistance provides a bridge. The biggest thing is a classroom assistant deals in content, not interpretation. As Sarah talked about, they gotta know enough to be able to say, “It’s a theta, not a circle with a line through it.”

Miri: Mm-hmm.听

Jewls: They’ve gotta have enough common vocabulary with the class. Ideally, you wouldn’t need a lot of classroom assistance if professors were used to teaching classes in an accessible way and had their materials to the alternative formats department in a timely manner so the student had alternative-format versions of anything shown in class.听

Miri: Yeah. It seems like everyone in this line of work, the ultimate end goal of their work is that position doesn’t have to exist anymore.听

Jewls: Yeah. Or that that position has changed.听

Miri: Yes. Making classrooms universally accessible, having everything be prepared with universal design in mind, having everything available in two, three, four formats for all students’ access levels. It would be the ideal. And that’s something we’re all trying to work for every day.

Jewls: Yeah.听

Miri: You know, starting from on a student-by-student level, ’cause that’s where it has to start. Those students have to have something.听

Sarah: An instructor describing what they’re writing on the board鈥攊t’s not just helpful to a blind student. It’s helpful to a student who’s behind in class and like, “Oh, I don’t remember what that symbol means.”

Miri: Or missed a week from illness.听

Sarah: Or missed a week from illness, right? Or they’re colorblind, they can’t see the different colors.听

Jewls: Or they’re taking notes and they have to have their head down.听

Sarah: Absolutely.听

Jewls: There’s any number of reasons.听

Sarah: Hence the term “universal.”听

Miri: Yeah. There’s a lot of talk about intersectionality when it comes to different disabilities, or disability and gender, disability and race. But the most frequent and most ignored intersectionality is between every single person having an easier time learning鈥攚hether or not you are a six-foot-one, able-bodied, white football player, or if you are a disabled student of color.听

Jewls: Universal access helps everybody.

Miri: Exactly.听

Taylor: Yeah, definitely benefits everyone.听

Jewls: Yeah.听

Miri: Which is the hope, I think.听

Jewls: I think that is.

Miri: It’s not called “partial design.”听

Jewls: Yeah, no.听

Miri: Yeah. Thank you guys so much for talking to me. Again, my favorite part of this job is hearing smart people talk about the things they know about. So this is always so much fun for me鈥攋ust listening and learning. And, you know, I ask questions that I’m curious about too.听

Jewls: Oh, this has been a lot of fun.听

Sarah: First time recording a podcast.听

Episode Outro

Miri: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! 抖阴福利导航’s broadcast about disability awareness and culture. Working in accessibility is not a glamorous position. You’re perpetually underfunded, understaffed, and underappreciated. One of the things I noticed at ORAHEAD this year is the stark difference between 抖阴福利导航’s representatives and those from across the rest of the state. Of the roughly 60-70 people in attendance, 抖阴福利导航 made up nearly 10 of them. Plus, a lot of the people I talked to, not even while recording, were the representative out of a total team of two at their institution. Having to handle the caseload of their entire school by themselves, alongside advocating for their students and their department, the resilience with which they work is, by the traditional meaning, incredible. A lot of them have been involved in this kind of work since back when they were students, working to provide access to students like them, and to make the world just a little bit better, each day at a time.

Ending Disclaimer

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let鈥檚 Talk! 鈥� 抖阴福利导航鈥檚 broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let鈥檚 Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the 抖阴福利导航 Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on , our Spotify channel, and .