Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri Newman

Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Interview Start: Meeting the Guests

Miri: Thank you for meeting with me today and agreeing to do this interview. I’ve been looking forward to telling people about STEAM Centers for a while, ’cause I think that’s a really cool thing that ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ provides. And a lot of the people who were in my graduating class, my graduating cohort, worked at least to some extent with the STEAM Centers. So yeah, will you introduce yourself and tell us how you ended up working at the STEAM Center?Ìý

Nora: Yeah! So; Hi! My name is Nora Hobson. I am an outreach specialist for the STEAM Center, as well as a technician/assistant for the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Maker Lab. And that one’s based at Sylvania. So basically, I ended up working at the STEAM Centers by being just a consistent maker within the space. You know, I visited a lot. It was like one of my routine stops, during my student tenure at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½. And basically I came up with a lot of projects, I really like ingratiated myself into the community of the center, and eventually, you know, it being a casual position, eventually another casual left and I was able to kind of apply for and hopefully get the role, which I was really lucky enough to get. So yeah, that’s how I ended up working here.

Miri: How long have you been there?Ìý

Nora: Oh, yeah. I’ve been at the STEAM Centers for about three years.Ìý

Miri: Nice!

Nora: And I’ve done outreach now for about two years. We just started our third grant cycle.Ìý

Miri: Nice. Yeah. So what exactly are the STEAM Centers? What do they do, and how’d they come to be?Ìý

Nora: So the STEAM Centers are — You can think of them as a series of maker spaces. If you don’t know what a maker space is, you can also think of it like a tool library. Basically, we’re like a community space, and we house a variety of different like pieces of tools and technology that it might not be feasible to keep in your home, especially not multiple pieces all at once. . So, you know, we provide access to tools like 3D printers. We have laser cutters in the space, vinyl cutters, so like, you know, sticker-making machines or T-shirt-making machines. I’m currently recording from the sewing room of the Sylvania lab.Ìý

Miri: ±·¾±³¦±ð.Ìý

Nora: Sylvania’s really lucky to have a whole sewing room. Most of the s- other centers will also just have like a sewing machine. But each of the centers are also going to have access to pretty much the same equipment across the district. So this space we have sewing machines, we have embroidery machines, sergers, just a whole fleet of tools and tech. Uh, we also have stuff for electronics as well, so if you wanna get into soldering or introductory circuits as well, just a whole array of things.

Miri: Interesting. Yeah, I have only interacted with the STEAM Center at Cascade, which, mostly what I was there for was the laser cutter and the 3D printers.

Nora: Yeah, yeah.Ìý

Miri: Um, so it’s super cool to have stuff also available for sewing and —Ìý

Nora: ´¡²ú²õ´Ç±ô³Ü³Ù±ð±ô²â!Ìý

Miri:Ìý — garment construction and stuff like that.Ìý

Nora: Or garment repair as well. . I mean, it’s not just, like, creating things, entirely from scratch. It’s about altering them to fit your body better. It’s about, you know, fixing it so that it doesn’t go into a landfill immediately. It’s about, you know, altering it or just, like, completely changing it into something new. Transforming it, really.Ìý

Miri: Yeah, that’s super cool.Ìý

Nora: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Miri: So aside from providing access to all these tools, you also have classes and workshops and stuff that you guys host, right?

Nora: Yeah. Well, so we don’t host classes per se. We collaborate with, um, specific, classes that would like to, you know, use our space or utilize our tools. Like at Sylvania specifically, we have been doing academic collaborations with the engineering department, for introductory engineering classes. We also —Ìý

Miri: That’s pretty coolÌý

Nora:Ìý — today we just had the printmaking, art, I think, 274, class come in to learn how to use our laser for their woodblocks. But yeah, we also do host workshops throughout the term. Each center is gonna have a slightly different workshop schedule just because each coordinator decides to make different workshops and run them based off of need for their space. We’re always gonna have Maker Basics, you know, like 3D printing, come in, learn how to 3D print on our printer. We’re gonna have sticker making, where [you] come in, learn how to take an image that you really love, and make it into a sticker that you can just slap on your tablet.Ìý

Miri: I’ve always wanted to do sticker making. That sounds like fun.

Nora: Sticker making is awesome. The vinyl cutters that we have are awesome. They’re… I mean, it, it’s, it’s all basically magic in here. It’s wild. Um, and then, yeah, we’ll also have slightly more advanced workshops that you have to sign up. Maker Basics are all basically drop-in workshops. So if you ever see an advertisement for it, you know, on the boards, or on Panther Hub, you’re going to be able to just, like, drop in at any time during that lab day. I think even Michael runs it just all week too. You can drop in any time, and we will teach you on the spot for that workshop. That’s a Maker Basics workshop. We’re also doing advanced workshops, which we ask that you sign up in advance for, and those are gonna be one-day workshops where we have, you know, a beginning, a middle, and an end — so please, like, show up on time — where we train you on a process like digitizing for the embroidery machine, or learning how to use the laser cutter, where, you know, we’ll have to teach you a software and then another software, and then we’ll have to show you how to thread the machine. it’s multiple steps, and therefore, It becomes a little bit harder to just, like, jump in and get to it right on the spot.Ìý

Miri: And these are… You mentioned that you do some work with classes, but these are open to, just, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ students, right?Ìý

Nora: Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. All of the workshops, we do our best to keep them free. I don’t think we’ve ever had a paid workshop that you have to attend. Even the sign-up ones, you just sign up on Panther Hub and the ticket is free. You just show up, you do it. We provide the materials, we provide the tools. It is all covered by your student fees, so. Within reason! I mean, if you wanna print a million ducks, maybe no a million ducks.Ìý

Miri: Oh, darn. Well, there goes my weekend plans…Ìý

Nora: We’ll let you get to, like, five or 10 pretty easily, you know?

Miri: The rest of the time, for just drop-in times?Ìý

Nora: Yeah. So drop-in times, basically what we’re gonna do, oftentimes we’re, we’ll be assisting classes or students. Like, where we get stretched pretty thin ’cause it’s a pretty high-demand space. Drop-in times are really cool, because they’re basically just open lab hours. Students are basically welcome to come in and work on projects, either for class or for personal projects, anytime during our open lab hours. Each space has assistants and technicians, and a couple of work studies as well to be able to help you through the project, and help you kinda brainstorm how we might help you bring these projects to life. Ultimately they are your projects, so there’s only so much brainstorming that we can do. We’re not gonna build your stuff for you. We’re not a manufacturing space. But as long as you’re willing to come in and, like, learn how to use the tools, and then utilize those tools to create something that you’re excited about and cool with, the world is your oyster at our space. Just come in, talk to us about the scope of your project. We’ll help you brainstorm, and we’ll help you get started on your creative journeys.Ìý

Miri: How do people who come for drop-in times bring materials? Like, do they have to bring all their own materials? Is there, like, a budget thing?Ìý

Nora: No. So, for the most part, the spaces provide materials, especially if you’re doing, like, a project like sticker making or, you know, 3D printing for the first time. You’re welcome to come in and just basically pick from the filaments that we have available to use. We’ll give you some guidance as to, like, what filaments are used for what. Mostly we print in, like, PLA at our spaces. . But if we, if you need something that’s, like, more structural or something that, like, squishes, we have some filaments for that as well. It just really depends on what the project is and why the project might need something different from the standard.

Miri: And what about for sewing? Will the student be bringing — I mean, obviously their own fabric presumably, but, like, thread and stuff, do you provide, or would they be bringing those as well?Ìý

Nora: We, we provide thread. We provide thread. We provide sewing notions. Really, whatever’s in the space is available. Oftentimes we even have fabric, too. We get a lot of people who are really interested in donating fabric, at least at the Sylvania campus.Ìý

Miri: That’s really cool.Ìý

Nora: And I’ve had to actually turn away some fabric donations, ’cause our cabinet is full.Ìý

Miri: Interesting. That’s really cool.Ìý

Nora: But yeah, no, oftentimes, like, especially for, like, costuming projects, if you’re doing, like, a cosplay or something really hyper-specific, a lot of our fabrics just won’t match the vibe of the costume that we’re looking for, in which case I often recommend, like, “Use our fabric for mock-ups. Go insane.” My personal fabric collection here is collecting dust. Um, so I say like, “Please, go after and, like, play. Go forth, play. Do some of the practice projects.” And then for larger projects or projects that you have a really specific vision for, that’s when we’ll say, “Hey, maybe, you know, we’re gonna need you to bring in some of your own materials, bring in your own filament.” Especially like, you know, if you’re, if you’re doing like a dozen patches on the embroidery machine and you’re going to be using a lot of thread from the thread library. You don’t necessarily need to buy all your colors but, you know, replenish some of the, some of the smaller like used spools. Or contribute a new color to the thread library ’cause things like color spools, they get used, but they get used really slowly. So it’s better to have kind of a, more broad color spectrum for students to choose from in general as like a community availability rather than having everyone like buy exactly the supplies that they need, bring it to the space, use what they need, and then take it home with them. That’s a burden on kind of everybody involved.Ìý

Miri: Yeah. That’s a cool thing to suggest that people do, ’cause I wouldn’t have even thought about like being able to use your external materials that you’re gonna bring into the space, and then add them to the collection, have it be like part of a maker Community, where it’s like, “Oh, yeah, you know, I bought this much thread for this project, and I used this much of it, so I’m just gonna leave you guys the rest of it for someone else.”Ìý

Nora: Yeah! Exactly! And it can vary from like material to material. We love getting more thread. We love getting more PLA, as long as it’s not like old PLA. it can gain water and get a little bit harder to use the older it gets.Ìý

Miri: Clog up the machine a little bit. Awesome. One of my colleagues has brought up a couple of times the idea of getting a group of people together to go in and make 3D prints or customizations for mobility assistance tools, or even just parts of mobility assistance or other accessibility tools that people don’t have.

Nora: Absolutely. That sounds awesome.Ìý

Miri: How long does a print take, like if you’re just going in to do that?Ìý

Nora: Yeah, that can wildly vary, unfortunately, depending on the size of the print, and the material that you’re printing with, and the printer that you’re printing on. Our spaces, we mainly have . Prusa’s a brand of printer. And it’s, uh, it’s one of the more common ones. Our spaces tend to have prusa Minis. I think most of the spaces are updated to Mark 4s at this point as well. I don’t know if we still have any Mark 3s around. But we stay within the Prusa ecosystem for the most part. These printers, I would say they could print out something… Oh, let’s see. What’s something that’s a recognizable and common size? I would say that they could print out something the size of in maybe two and a half hours, just off the top of my head.

Miri: So you have a collection of materials. Do you also have displays of things that people have made there?Ìý

Nora: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Each space does displays a little bit differently, but most of the spaces have some form of like display area or display case. Oftentimes they do get a little old and dusty ’cause not many people want to put out their displayed items, and so we end up with a lot of stuff that technicians have made in the space, or just like really cool and innovative projects that happened like three years ago. But most spaces, they do have a space to like showcase students’ work, cool projects, things like that.Ìý

Miri: Nice. So, if there are people who want to come to one of the just drop-in workshops, how do they go about finding out about that?Ìý

Nora: Yeah, so all of our workshops are advertised on . We’re with the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ STEAM Centers, but you can also find out about them on our ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ webpage, , It’ll also tell you the open lab timesÌý

Miri: If there is someone coming in there with a disability or other accessibility needs, how are those met? What is the best way for somebody with some sort of accommodational need to interact with the space?Ìý

Nora: Yeah. So I mean, every accommodation that someone is going to need is going to be different. I think first things first is we always do our best to just meet that student at the level of need that they need. We do our best to make sure that there are multiple forms of documentation for any given equipment, and also that all of the staff are really well trained and able to operate as teachers and tutors for each piece of equipment within the space. .

Miri: So that includes, like, safety trainings and all that sort of thing?Ìý

Nora: Oh, absolutely. We take safety insanely seriously at the STEAM centers. . We have PPE at every space, for any level of desire or need. So, you know, if you’re operating the band saw, which we have at Sylvania, we require that you tie your hair back, that you wear your safety goggles, that you operate under the safety procedures. And even then, the tools are still, like, locked out, and we’re by your side operating that tool with you because it is such a hazard. We just wanna make sure everything in the space is used and maintained and operated with as much safety in mind as possible.Ìý

Miri: Oh, yeah. I, myself, am absolutely terrified of band saws.

Nora: Yeah. And if a student is ever uncomfortable with using a machine like that, we’re happy to step in and help figure out that situation together. You know? If I need to cut something on the band saw, I can cut it.Ìý

Miri: That’s actually super helpful, I think.I think a lot of people want to make things, case in point myself, and are just intimidated by either the lack of knowledge of how to use a tool so having someone there to very patiently and genuinely guide them through it.Ìý

Nora: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Miri: And also just some of the risks of things. Like, I’m a guitar player. I, I really would like to have all 10 fingers for as much of my life as I can —

Nora: Right?

Miri: — As I can go through, so.Ìý

Nora: Right. No, exactly.Ìý

Miri: Is there anything else that you wanna bring up or any upcoming events that you wanna, like, get out there?Ìý

Nora: Oh my gosh, so many. I know that we have a whole variety of workshops coming up, and I wanna plug every single one of them. We have a Building Day at Sylvania Campus, where we’re gonna build VEX robots and play soccer with them.Ìý

Miri: What’s a VEX robot?Ìý

Nora: It’s a robotics kit. They’re often used for, like, robotics high school competitions, and so you can build them in different ways, and then you can play a variety of different games with them that are like robotics competition kinda games.

Miri: Okay. Like soccer!Ìý

Nora: And then we do have next Friday, all the way out at OMIC, we have aÌý jotes making workshop,Ìý

Miri:Ìý jotes??

Nora: With the community. Yeah, jotes. Jean tote bags. Uh, or jurse!Ìý

Miri: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Nora: Whichever is worse. Uh, you’re welcome to, you’re welcome to think ofÌý jote or jurse.Ìý

Miri: I was thinking, “Is that like jorts?” But I’m like, “I’m not gonna say that ’cause that, that’d be silly.”Ìý

Nora: Nope. It’s pretty much, it’s pretty much jorts, but the legs are sewn together. You cut off the legs of the pants, and you cut out the crotch, and you sew it across the bottom. And then you add Handles, made out of the previous pant leg straps. You know, it makes a, it makes a very fun and whimsical little bag for you to take around town. It’s one of my favorite projects.

Miri: It’s a conversation piece.Ìý

Nora: It is a conversation piece indeed.Ìý

Miri: Okay, that’s super cool. I might, I might, might-Ìý

Nora: Yeah, it’s a lot of fun.

Miri: I might look into that one.Ìý

Nora: That one’s gonna be out at OMIC in Scappoose, though. So that one might not be —Ìý

Miri: Oh, okayÌý

Nora:Ìý —very close. But keep an eye out for more workshops, ’cause we do rotate out workshops, and especially the bigger ones, we do try to rotate them from campus to campus, too. So, you know, jotes will be back again at Sylvania. We’ll do them at Southeast. We’ll do them at Cascade. We’ll do them at Rock Creek. We try to do as many as we can, all around town.Ìý

Miri: And you keep an eye out for that both on…Ìý

Nora: and Panther Hub.

Miri: Perfect. All right. Thank you very much for talking to me today.Ìý

Nora: Thank you so much, Miri. It was great talking to you.

Outro and Credits

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk! ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at . This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our home website, our Spotify channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

Intro & Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Asher: Hi, everybody. My name is Asher, and welcome back to another podcast on the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective. Here today with me, I have a very special guest, and we’re gonna be talking a little bit about the Inclusive Career Advancement Program. Would you please introduce yourself, your name, pronouns, and what you do?

Adam: Sure thing. Hi, everyone! My name is Adam Mennig, he, him, and I serve as the statewide director of STEP and Pathways to Opportunity housed here at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½. So, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ holds the main contract for a handful of state and federal grant programs and serves as an intermediary representing all 16 other community colleges. So, we hold the main contract and support programming at all 16 of Oregon’s Community Colleges. ICAP, was one of those grant programs that we helped administer. So, me and my team, there’s a team of two other humans right now that help support the handful of grant programs at all the colleges.

What is the Inclusive Career Advancement Program?

Asher: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining me today, Adam. I really appreciate it. For someone hearing about the Inclusive Career Advancement Program for the first time, what exactly is it, if you can explain it to us?

Adam: I will do my best. Just a quick note, that these are my views and don’t necessarily represent the views and policies of the US Department of Education, nor an endorsement of any federal agency. So, it was a federal grant program. ICAP stands for the “Inclusive Career Advancement Program”. It was a Disability Innovation Fund grant from the US Department of Education Rehabilitation Services Administration. That’s a mouthful. And, the grant was awarded to Oregon Vocational Rehabilitation in partnership with ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ as a core partner, Cornell University, who led a lot of training and evaluation of the project, and then the Oregon Commission of the Blind Commission for the Blind. It was really focused on how Oregon Vocational Rehabilitation could better connect individuals to quality career training programs in Oregon community colleges.

Asher: Awesome. Yeah, thanks for explaining that. Do you know about, off the top of your head, when this program was first established?

Adam: Yeah, you’re making me do math. Five years. So, October 2021 through September 2026. But, most college programming ended in June of 2026.

Asher: Wow. So, it was pretty recent that it ended.

Adam: Yes. So it just finished up. Then the evaluation will continue for one additional year. Cornell will follow folks through the program. So, we have some folks who started their schooling and credentials that aren’t finished, right? It takes a little bit to finish your schooling. So, following evaluation of the project over the next year, or so.

Asher: Yeah, we’ll definitely talk a little bit more in depth about just the whole history of ICAP and why the funding is gone and everything. But, I wanna hear a little bit about how you first became involved with ICAP and what has kept you connected to this program

Adam: Yeah, it’s funny. So, I’ve been at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ for about a year and a half, but before that I worked at another community college in Oregon, where I oversaw a handful of other grant projects. One of them was the ICAP program at Chemeketa Community College in Salem, Oregon. I first got connected to this project through Oregon Community College’s Career Pathways programs and SNAP training employment program. We had been working with Oregon Department of Human Services and other state providers, and Vocational Rehabilitation reached out to ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ as the lead and was like, “Hey, there’s this grant we should go for.”. Then the person in my previous position had reached out and said, “Who wants to get involved? Try this thing? Let’s go for this grant.”. We all said “yes”, then we got news that we were awarded. So, I was first involved with hiring a career coach at Chemeketa Community College and overseeing the local program, and then a year and a half ago transitioned into this statewide, leadership role where I got to support all the community colleges and lead in this work differently in partnership with Ricky X, who was a program coordinator. Super responsible for supporting all the coaches at all the community colleges and getting this program operating over the last five years

Asher: Oh, that’s awesome that it was going at least for five years. How many colleges was supported by this program?

Adam: 16 of the 17 had different roles in ICAP. We had a phased approach, so some colleges joined in the first year, and then some in the second and third, and there’s a few transitions. But, 16 of the 17 were formally involved in ICAP at some capacity.

Asher: Yeah, for sure. I bet. I bet they wore a lot of different type of hats too, it sounds like, right?

Adam: Yes, definitely. As the project first started, the first year of ICAP wasn’t really designed to serve individuals yet. It was working with community colleges and Oregon Vocational Rehabilitation, voc rehab counselors. How do we get our processes down and referrals, and how do we make this system work before we start enrolling folks into our system and process? So, different colleges came on at different points in that, life cycle

Asher: I see. That’s very cool. Yeah, I’m interested to know a little bit more about that whole process tour, at least the history of it, if you can break it down for me? You said it started with individuals?Ìý

Adam: A handful of colleges, and wasn’t intended to enroll many folks that first year. It was really like, can we get our systems and processes down and figure out how this multi-agency state collaboration works? But, we did end up enrolling individuals in that first year. Statewide our goal was to serve 500 folks over that five-year period, and statewide we ended up serving 700 humans. So, really we’re able to exceed the goal of enrolling folks. Much of that work really huge shout-out goes to those career coaches working at colleges and our voc rehab counselor partners. Yeah. That connection, that human connection, people helping people is really what makes it successful. We’re large bureaucratic organizations and people can get lost in the mix, and so having those career coaches and voc rehab counselors collaborating on shared students and clients it’s really magical. All while doing it with the frustrations of working in bureaucratic systems, if I’m honest, right?

Asher: Oh, yeah. For sure!

Adam: There’s always a form for that!Ìý

Asher: There’s always a thing! Yeah! I realize I’m asking a question off of our interview sheet. But, I wanted to ask where did you see, or when did you see the “traction” start spreading from a couple of colleges into multiple colleges?

Adam: Yeah, I would really say in that second and third year. So, colleges who were able to wait for half a second; “How is this gonna work?”, Could learn from that first batch of colleges and really hit the ground running. Oregon Community Colleges look very different. We’re not a system, right? There’s 17 independently operated community colleges. Some smaller ones 500 student total institutions to 60,000 at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, right? So, they vary in size and geography and local economies. Same with voc rehab branch offices and services. So, really colleges were able to take some time to look at what makes best sense in our area and our community. How do we build trust and relationship, so we can best serve the needs of our local community? What works in Portland is not what works at the coast or-

Asher: Elsewhere, yeah.

Adam: Right? Understanding those nuances to design programs that work in the communities and for the people is really important.

Asher: Yeah. Thanks for explaining that to me. I appreciate that. What needs was ICAP created to address when it was first established? You talked a little bit about it, but what’s the deeper needs as it developed over time?

Adam: As that proposal was written up, I was reflecting back on the grant application and rereading through, “Hey, what did we say? What’s the point?”, as I was looking at this needs. Really it was to braid our different services and resources and relationships to close opportunity gaps and increase economic mobility for individuals with disabilities, and doing that through education and training. We had looked at some data from the American Community Survey, which is like the US Census, and, in Oregon, a little over forty percent of working age people with disabilities were employed versus seventy-eight point six percent of working age individuals without disabilities. So, it’s a thirty-eight-ish percentage point gap in employment. We attributed that to like how do we… We know education can lead to better employment outcomes for folks. How are we, both as colleges and as state agency in voc rehab, better linking individuals with disabilities to access to quality education and training? So, the main goal was to increase employment, build out more coordinated relationships between voc rehab and the community colleges. Oregon Voc Rehab, prior to ICAP, had lots of focus on employment, but varying levels of connection to education programs. There’s sort of pockets of education connection. Post-ICAP, we found that ninety-four percent of voc rehab counselors had referred folks to at least one student to an ICAP program. They’d served at least one student, so ninety-four percent post-ICAP had served one student education and training. Prior to ICAP, it was more difficult for voc rehab counselors to create education plans. It required more levels of sign-off within the agency. So, ICAP really helped Oregon Voc Rehab shift some internal policies and thought process around education and training and the community colleges were able to demonstrate some quality workforce training programs where we could link up. Again, voc rehab has all the rules and processes; apply and register and get in the right class, and go to advising and figure out financial aid. There’s lots of get connected with accessibility services at your campus, provide the right paperwork, transfer your credits from somewhere else. There’s all these systems and, pre-ICAP, lots of space for folks to get lost in the shuffle. So, we wanted, with ICAP, to be able to have dedicated career coaches housed on community college campuses who are in a collaborative relationship with vocational rehab counselors; where they would meet monthly, could train each other on the nuance of each oth- each other’s agencies and processes so we could walk alongside students and clients collaboratively, problem solve issues. So, if a voc rehab counselor heard of an issue with a student, they could reach out to their contact and we could do some shared case management and support. We could support more folks working through the the funnel.

Asher: I love that explanation. It’s great, yeah. And you also answered my next question, which was, “how this program is different from the resources a student might normally receive from their college or university?”. Correct me if I’m wrong, it’s sounds like ICAP was basically a hub, or a central hub at least, for all these different resources where you were saying students could get lost in the whole shuffle of things.

Adam: Yeah, you got a human.

Asher: Yeah, you got a human being. Staff come alongside them and help them out through the process.

Adam: Yeah, and there’s lots of different processes at a college, right? So, maybe they didn’t know they were supposed to get– would be helpful or had the option to get connected to accessibility resources. What’s that look like? Especially for folks who may have had a high school experience or middle school experience that are now having a college experience. Do I have to disclose? Do I wanna disclose? What’s that look like? What resources available to also navigating financial aid? We have lots of these offices within a college, but having a person to help get connected to the right offices and support folks through that journey was really important and also serve as that connection point to these other offices and programs that might exist. So, there’s lots of different programs on college campuses that could also benefit from co-enrolling. Maybe the person also gets connected with TRIO services, if they’re a first-generation student. Or, if their institution has a TRIO disability services grant, or their local SNAP training employment program, if the person receives food stamps and wants to get connected to education and training, or their Career Pathways program. So, it’s like layered on to these other systems of supports and really intentionally connecting folks to them. Vocational Rehabilitation had access to the supportive service dollars that Voc Rehab has to help fund education and training. But, it’s that plus these other things together; how do we build that ecosystem? You have that point of contact on your institution, your human to help folks navigate. Especially if it’s your first time in college or maybe you don’t come from a family who’s had that same experience, or maybe you’ve attempted before and it was less than stellar experiences. We carry our own stories and bring different experiences, so we thought it was really important to have a person on each campus that could then work across agencies to connect folks.

Asher: What did it look like when a student would come in, back when ICAP was still around? What was the process of getting connected to a staff member and then going through that process, if you can tell me about that?

Adam: Yeah, it looks different, I would say, depending on your institution. ICAP was housed in different areas of institutions. So, some ICAP programs were housed directly in a accessibility services office. Some were housed in more student affairs, like offices, and some were housed in like step and career pathways offices. So, depending where they were originally housed, there may be varying levels of connection already with Voc Rehab, or understanding of accessibility needs. So, where folks got referred and connected, voc rehab counselors could refer clients as they came in and got referred to voc rehab to say, “Hey, we have this program. Would you like to get connected? Let’s connect you to a coach.”. Coaches also did a lot of outreach to local high schools for the folks transitioning from high school into college age, also campus-based referrals. So, there were folks attending community colleges already, or were thinking about getting connected, who could have benefited from voc rehab services but didn’t know voc rehab services existed, right? That reverse referral to get somebody connected to Voc Rehab, so then they could get enrolled in ICAP. ‘Cause you had to be enrolled in voc rehab to be in ICAP. Coaches did a lot of work to say, “Hey, we have folks who might benefit from some additional supports. Let’s get them connected” and navigating applications to voc rehab can be its own process. Again, they’re great people doing amazing work. It’s just we all have systems and forms and processes. So, that was fun to see voc rehab counselors, managers of voc rehab, and community college partners collaborate and think of ideas of like, “Hey, how could we better serve our community and come up with ways to do joint outreach and referral processes?”. The other thing that was important early on was that folks met and continued to meet monthly. So, both to like triage cases, but also, “what’s not working well in this relationship?”, “How do we be better partners?”, “What things are coming up for you?”, “I heard blah, blah, blah,”, or “I heard voc rehab changed the process…”, “I heard community college changed the process. When should I apply for financial aid? What’s going on?”, to do that joint case making. So, folks could get referred through VR. They could just walk into an office and hear about it and get connected; reverse referral or some outreach. So, lots of word of mouth. People who’ve had good experiences tell other folks, and it kinda builds out from there.

Asher: Yeah. It sounds a little bit like therapy meets vocational career pathways, type of deal.

Adam: Yeah, sort of a comprehensive approach to supporting of someone’s education to employment journey.

Lessons Learned from ICAP

Asher: Yeah. Well, we talked a little bit about the history behind ICAP, how it was established and how you came into the mix, and just the whole process of students coming in; getting plugged in and getting the resources that they need depending on where they are in their college education or career pathways or vocation, depending. Let’s talk a little bit about what happened to ICAP’s funding and what led to that decision where it’s no longer available.

Adam: Yeah. So, it was a Disability Innovation Fund project, which is really a demonstration grant. So, the federal government does these competitions, and so we knew from the beginning that the funding source we used to stand up ICAP wasn’t going to continue at the end. However, we also wanted to use it as a demonstration project. So, what can we learn from this project that we can sustain? How do we look for other revenue sources and grants? We have used some of this data and we’ll have more as the different evaluation projects go, to inform vocational rehabilitation, when they do their agency budget; ask for resources, “Hey, can we get dollars here? State budget, federal budgets are tight. Those dollars weren’t awarded.” However, we look for ways to incorporate into some of our existing programs. So, how do we connect folks who may have been served through ICAP to our STEP program, so SNAP Training Employment Program, which offers monthly case management services as well for folks who receive SNAP but not TANF. So, if we can get folks connected to that pipeline, can we offer some of the supports that ICAP offered? For colleges have career pathways teams, can we get them connected? Where do we see the most overlap where we can get folks connected to programming that we have on campuses, so it doesn’t go from everything to nothing and see that sort of drop-off on connection? Some of this is also the case management, so folks who are enrolling towards the end of ICAP; being transparent with folks so they can make an informed choice like, “Here’s what supports look like up to this point and that point. Once this grant ends, here’s some sort of expected referrals.”. Let’s make those connections before it’s over so folks aren’t just left floating in the abyss! We continue to look for dollars. So, I know different colleges are still meeting, they’re still having the relationship between Voc Rehab and Colleges. They’re still doing monthly meetings. We can talk about some of our systems issues and institutional issues, we may not be able to release information and things like that to triage specific cases. But, let’s keep those lines of communication open. Voc rehab has entered “Order of Selection”, which means there’s a wait list to get access to VR services and you have to get on the list. So, that’s another wrinkle that came in through this project. While we knew from the beginning that this particular funding source wasn’t going to happen, exist long term, we were continually conscious of how do we find other resources to fill that gap. We continue to look to say, “are there opportunities to design programs or go after dollars using this data to get some version of it back?”. How do we take the lessons learned, incorporate it into existing systems, as well as look for opportunities? So, it’s a more challenging budget environment on the philanthropic side and state and federal budget constraints. But, It really demonstrated the power of what we can do in community with multiple agencies working together, and so I do think there are opportunities to continue to look for that funding.

Asher: Multiple other questions after hearing all that, honestly. So, it sounds like, and correct me if I’m wrong, when ICAP was first established, it wasn’t expected that it would last for a very long period of time? Is that right?Ìý

Adam: It was a five-year demonstration grant. So, we knew that exact funding source, the US Department of Education Disability Innovation Fund at the Rehab Services Administration, that pot was going to end. Just like when we were applying for the ICAP grant; we looked at how did other grants inform our application for this? This gives us a set of data and resources to say, “Hey, how can we use this to inform other grant applications?” Voc rehab did use it to try and get additional dollars in their agency budget when they were applying each biennium to the legislature. They weren’t successful this year in getting that. But, it maybe helpful to say, “What can we learn from this? What can we apply this now? What can we apply to future grant applications?”. So, it’s not like we did this thing and now it’s dead. We really have taken those lessons learned to shape services going forward. But, it did mean folks, who were in those coaching positions, many of those folks no longer have jobs. Which is difficult. Some of those were able to stay on at colleges and move to career pathways or step programs and other institutions that wasn’t possible. So, folks who spent several years building a great thing, like that was definitely a mourning process. People do amazing work, and then there’s not the dollars to continue.

Asher: It’s hard…

Adam: Difficult. Yeah…

Asher: That sounds very difficult. It sounds like ICAP was the huge umbrella for all these sub-programs that you’re now like passing the baton to as far as Career Pathway Services kind of thing.

Adam: Yeah, it’s kind of this like “both and…”. It was built on like a career pathways, like Oregon has a 20-year career pathways history of stackable credentials and wraparound supports. It has a 10-year history of the STEP program at community colleges. So, these were sort of a foundation to get ICAP, but more focused on individuals with disabilities. Which was a target population that we saw a need based on the data that, “hey, how do we do a better job serving?”. So, it’s like using those as a foundation to then get this demonstration grant, learn more lessons that can then be put back into those other programs. So, it comes from and then goes back to this whole sort of ecosystem. It’s really, “how do we as community colleges best support our communities?”, and often that means we’re scraping for dollars and we have this grant program, and that program, and these all work together. Take the crumbs together, we get a whole cookie. Be nice if we got the cookie to begin with, but we work this collaborative relationship to say, “how do we get the most out of the limited resources? How do we continue to demonstrate that value? How do we keep our focus on students in the communities we serve, and then go after dollars to grow and expand the work so we can do more of it?”.

Asher: Yeah. I like that imagery of “the whole cookie”. It sound like ICAP was the whole cookie, and now it’s like little crumbs here and there. Is there ever an opportunity, or do you think, that there is ever a chance in the future for ICAP to reform again or the program to reform again?

Adam: Yeah, I think those lessons learned. How do we keep strong relationships between Voc Rehab and Colleges? So, that could be through Accessibility Offices, that could be through STEP and Career Pathways Programming at Colleges. I also think it looks different depending where. So, like in the Portland Metro or in the Willamette Valley, you may see Voc Rehab counselors on College Campuses. We know that relationships was important– so giving like a “non-answer answer”– but like will it be a whole program, a complete replica? I’m not so sure. But, the lessons that we learn from that I think can get applied. I do think you’ll see; down in Elaine Community College, the Voc Rehab Counselors still do office hours at the Community College site and at other Colleges, as well, that exists. I know Community Colleges are still meeting in their monthly meeting with their partners, which didn’t exist in many cases before ICAP, yet continues now. So, folks will reap the benefit of that relationship. We know coaching models work. That’s why they do it in TRIO. There’s lots of good data that coaching models exist. We see it in STEP, we see it in Career Pathways, we see it in the TRIOs of the world, we see it in Future Connect, we see it in all these opportunities. So, do I think future coaching models, we’ll seek funding for those? Yes. Would that be completely as it was? No. But, I think we can apply those lessons to continued projects. So, it’s like-

Asher: Like a, “yes and…”.

Adam: A “yes and…”! Yeah, like how do you take the pieces? And it is a wild experience. The good, the bad, the ugly of getting 16 community colleges, in this case, State Agencies, federal partners, all working together with different needs, wants, desires, but all focused on serving communities. What a great sort of experience, and not without its challenges. But, what I loved about this process was that we could engage in those conversations together and do collaborative problem-solving to actually make things work better for everyone. Not just sit in our frustration, right? So, to me it’s a powerful example of how different agencies and people working together can create sort of opportunity for folks to succeed. Which they should have had all along. But, how do we remove some of the systemic barriers that exist? We have the ability to be a part of that. Was it perfect? No. But did we do great, awesome work? I think so. Super proud of all the people.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. I’ve never heard of ICAP when I was a student at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½. Just doing some research on them, “Oh, man! I really wish I had this when I was in school!”

Adam: And it’s interesting as you say that. Because we’re ramping up initially, that first year; didn’t enroll a ton of folks by design as we get our processes in. That is an unfortunate thing. I’ve heard more about ICAP from colleagues and people across the state in the last year of the program than earlier on. It was finally hitting its stride and coming into its own just as it’s winding down and ending.

The Last Year of ICAP

Asher: For sure. So, you told me a little bit about, you guys knew that the program was going to come to an end, and when it was slowly coming to an end, what did it look like for students who relied on the services? Was it a slow, “Oh, yeah. The program is ending. Here’s other resources for you guys to dip into,” kind of thing? What did that process look like?

Adam: Again, it looks slightly different at every institution. But, the other thing that was interesting in this last year of ICAP, Oregon entered, I mentioned, order of selection, which was this wait list for new folks into voc rehab. But, if you were connected to ICAP, order of selection didn’t apply initially. You could enroll in ICAP if you were ICAP eligible and receive ICAP services even though order selection was happening. So, that created some interesting scenarios. Because, if you didn’t finish by the time ICAP ended and your name wasn’t up on the wait list, you went back to the wait list. So, having some really important like informed consent conversations around; here’s the services available now, here’s what it looks like at the end. Some of it we don’t quite know based on if you’re where you’re at on the wait list. “What does that look like for you? What supports might you need? Do you still wanna do this thing, yes or no?”. So, that the student could make, “yes, I think I wanna do this”, or not. Then for folks who have been in the program, if you were enrolled in ICAP before the order selection occurred and you didn’t finish your education program and ICAP ended, you would stay in voc rehab services. Your services through Voc Rehab would continue. Supportive services and Voc Rehab counselor appointments would continue. What went away was that site-based career coaching on a college campus. Unless you got connected with STEP or Career Pathways coaching, existing coaching, or TRIO. So, a lot of that work, that career coaches did both before it was gonna end and really focused on as ICAP was winding down, was saying, “How do we best connect students to existing campus resources so when I, as a career coach, am gone; they’re still connected?”, and let’s not do this the day before this ends. It takes a while to build trust and commitment and relationship. Let’s take that term or two to build that out, so it’s not this stark, “Sorry, can’t talk to you.”

Asher: “It’s done!”

Adam: All that to say, while coaches themselves didn’t know if they had positions, right? Some coaches knew they were gonna transition to another job at the college, and so they had some stability. Other coaches were trying to find other job opportunities. So, as coaches transitioned– making sure that Students still had supports– leads of programs could step in and support folks. That we had a plan in place. So, all the colleges made transition guides for their Voc Rehab Counselor Partners to say, “I know I connect with lots of groups on campus. Here are the key contacts to all those groups on campus. Here’s what it looks like to do financial aid. Here’s a resource guide for our campus, so at least you have that when I’m not here that you can have.”. Then, same thing for the students themselves. But, trying to spread the knowledge base out so it wasn’t June 30th, see you later. That’s not to say that; I do wanna acknowledge, that is difficult, right? You have somebody you could talk to every week or every other day, and now that level of resource isn’t there, and so that is a challenge, right?

Asher: It is for sure a challenge, and we can only hope that programs like this maybe later, in the future once we get a little bit more dollars, could get reestablished again. We see a need, fill a need kind of thing.Ìý

Adam: We know coaching works. We know connecting systems and processes work. How do we do that and do that at scale? How do we tell that story? How do we get advocates to join us in advocating at the legislature? Advocating with their peers? Going after grant applications?

Asher: While ICAP’s program was still running , what are some success stories that have really stuck out with you and that impacted you in a way where, like, “Yes, this is actually working”. “Yes, I wanna keep doing this.”.

Adam: Yeah, I love that question. So, this YouTube link I just dropped in; it’s long. It’s like 20 minutes. But, there’s four different vignettes of students who went through ICAP who are telling their journey and their story of success from across the state. So, it’s them, oftentimes their Voc Rehab Counselor, and their current employer. Folks who maybe didn’t think education was for them, or they had tried it before, or had various experiences with incarceration, or other potential barriers that, through coaching and supports and through their grit and tenacity and stick-to-it-iveness, were able to complete, find employment, and sort of give back to their communities. There’s some stories in there where, they’ve lived a life before ICAP completed and now get to go back and contribute to the place and folks who supported them. Those stories are meaningful. I already mentioned the stat about 94% of voc rehab counselors referred at least one student to ICAP. I cannot say how proud I am of that. The sea change of the work of Voc Rehab, pre-ICAP, I bet it was less than 50% of voc rehab counselors has written an education plan. Voc Rehab does see education as a path to meeting sort of their federal obligations and to supporting folks into living wage jobs, and community colleges are here to be a partner. So, like that may not be super sexy, it’s like systemic policy wonkiness. But, if Voc Rehab counselors aren’t able to write education plans, then folks aren’t able to engage in education. I think of students who speak about their coach, the impact, “someone cared about me”, and students who didn’t think they could maybe do it. When they first come in, they’re like, “I don’t know if I can really do this”, to then you watch them blossom and their confidence grow, and they become sort of advocates for the program, advocates for themselves, advocates for their community. That’s what I love. When I look at 70% of participants report personal work income as the main source of their income, like work income. We wanted to connect folks to education. 430 credentials have been earned thus far from folks. Folks who are completing, finding employment, have opportunity and that is like what we’re about.

Asher: Oh, definitely. Yeah

Adam: It’s like cool stuff. That video’s a little long. But, I love to hear people in their own words. There’s also one more website I will put in which is more written testimonial versions. So, one’s audio-based, one’s word-based, of like students and their stories that they’ve given consent to share.

Resources and Takeaways

Asher: For sure. For the listeners, we’ll link all these resources at the bottom of our home website; pcc.edu/dca, from wherever you’re listening, whether it be Spotify, XRAY FM, or KBOO Community Radio. Thanks, Adam, for sharing all these things. Is there anything you would like to give away to our listeners? What the public can do to support efforts like these? Whether it’s to support programs like ICAP, or any sort of like career pathways in the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ sphere?

Adam: I think asking about programs, I think supporting it in the legislature, discovering… you had shared like, “Oh, I didn’t know it was a thing. Well, I wish I would’ve known.”. Sometimes we’re not great at telling our own story, right? People are committed to doing their work. They’re doing awesome work, but folks may not know about it. So, if you’re attending ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, there is a great Career Pathways Team. There is a STEP Team. There are great teams doing Basic Needs work. Asking about it, getting connected to it, seeing the benefit of it, and then advocating for this on a policy front is always helpful. Similar, we’re in the Portland Metro, so our folks at Mount Hood Community College have similar programs, and as do our folks at Clackamas Community College. Each community college in Oregon has a Career Pathways Program, has a STEP Program, has a Basic Needs Program, has Accessibility Offices. So, be inquiring, “Hey, is there programs that can support students?”, and that’s really hard to do as a student to say, “Hey, I heard there’s this thing.”.

Asher: “I need help.”

Adam: “I need help.”. We’re not always trained to do that. But, today, thousands of students are, even post-ICAP, thousands of students across Oregon are served in these programs. There is a group of folks who want to be able to help you if you’re a student looking for services. And, if you’re someone in a position to be able to advocate and support these programs, we would love to have you.

Asher: For sure, yeah. I love that. Just the idea of not feeling very safe to reach out for these resources. Which is why I love, in the very beginning of the year when school term starts for students, teachers and professors provide all these different resources. “Hey, if you need help in your classes, these are the resources you should reach out to, so you can succeed.”. Because we wanna see students succeed in their careers and in what they’re wanting to reach out for in schools. Which is a really big thing and something that I feel like all of us could take away from.

Adam: Definitely. I put one more link, which is a link to the Pathways to Opportunity statewide work, which has more about the Step Programs at all Community Colleges, Basic Needs at Oregon work at Community Colleges, a little synopsis of ICAP as well and some of the work of the state team. There’s also links to the other community colleges, so if folks are outside of Portland and wanna get connected if they hear about this on the World Wide Web.

Asher: For sure. Well, thank you so much, Adam, for speaking to me today about the ICAP program, and we really hope that at least in the near future that other career pathway programs like this will be established. Thank you so much.

Adam: Thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

Outro & Credits

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .Ìý

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Introduction

Miri: Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. Would you like to introduce yourself and just tell our listeners about your background and your position here at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½?Ìý

Xander: My name is Xander Addams. I have been a ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ student for the last two and a half years. I also work in three different positions at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½. I work as a math mentor with the math department, as a captioner with the Accessible Ed and Disability Resources portion, and, as a student advocate. Specifically, I was put into the Accessibility Hub at Southeast, also with Accessible Ed and Disability Resources. I am getting my associate’s degree, which I just recently got this last spring.Ìý

Miri: Ooh, congrats!Ìý

Xander: I’m transferring to PSU to get my bachelor of creative writing —Ìý

Miri: Nice!Ìý

Xander: — before going on to get my master’s in library sciences.Ìý

Miri: Ooh, okay! Awesome. Is that also gonna be PSU, you’re thinking?Ìý

Xander: PSU doesn’t have a, uh, ALA accredited. I don’t think any college in Oregon does. The closest one that has an Associates of Librarians of America, I think, something like that, ALA – it’s a library association– that is accredited, is University of Washington has an information school up in Seattle. But you can take all of the classes online, I believe. So I will hopefully get my Master’s there. But I have also thought about going overseas for it.Ìý

Miri: Ooh, nice! That would be a pretty good way to get a master’s degree, I think. So what we’re talking about today is the Discord server that you’ve set up for people within the Disability Cultural Alliance, and specifically the body doubling stuff that you’ve been facilitating. Tell us about that. What is body doubling? How did you start that? And what’s the idea behind body doubling?Ìý

What is Body Doubling?

Xander: Body doubling, also known, I believe, as parallel play, is a way for you to occupy a space with another person, and focus on working on tasks, doing homework, doing chores, doing that task that has been — that you’ve been dreading doing, but you’re able to do it because you’re in the presence of someone else who is also actively working. It’s generally used by people of different neurodivergences, um, neurodiversities, mainly because of the, like, communal aspect of doing the thing. It’s very heavily associated with ADHD – which is something I am familiar with since I have that – and I have found it’s extremely helpful for me, and I kinda live by an ethos that if it’s helpful for me, it’s not only gonna be helpful for me. There will be other people that benefit from bringing it into a space.Ìý

Miri: Nice! So you started the server on your own accord?Ìý

Xander: Essentially.Ìý

Miri: Or was that something you set up through the school?

Xander: I started it as one of the projects that I did as a student advocate. I will say it’s great that we have things like the ADHD Peer Resource Group, and we have the , and we have the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Network, and those are all really great, and they have more consistent times. But if you don’t know about them, it’s kind of difficult to find them, and also they’re on Zoom. And I don’t know about you, but if something’s on Zoom, it’s so easy for me to forget. I started the Discord partially because we were all about student engagement in the Accessibility Hub. The Accessibility Hub is the first disability resource center on campus on any of our ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ campuses, so it’s like a big feat in and of itself, but it’s very difficult to get engagement there because of its location in the building. It’s in the back. And I also started to, like, realize that maybe some of the people that we could be serving to create a community space aren’t coming to campus, aren’t coming to Southeast campus specifically, can’t come to campus for whatever reason. And just because the Zoom times that are being offered aren’t during their schedule doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t have access to a community that they can interact with. And, you know, one of the things that I benefited from was Discord. Discord’s already part of my life, and I know that there are other students out there who Discord is part of their life already. So joining another server and building another community is a lot easier when it’s already part of your daily routine.Ìý

Miri: Yeah, that sounds like a really good thing to have for people, especially with the switch to most things having at least some sort of online option, whether that’s courses in general or tutoring, like I know you do. So how can body doubling aid students who have disabilities or just are struggling with course workload?Ìý

Xander: Body doubling gives you a designated time to work on something, and also it gives you the accountability of you’re with another person who is also, like, working on something actively. At least one other person. Sometimes it’s a larger group. I believe that as we’re talking there are two people body doubling in the server right now.Ìý

Miri: ±·¾±³¦±ð.Ìý

Xander: And it really, helps break down the monotony of, like, I have gone to class, now I have to go home and do all of this myself, and it, it has the… it alleviates the stress of, the grinding the grindset. That’s not, that’s not a word. The mindset of the grind.Ìý

Miri: I think grindset has become common parlance enough that people, people will probably know what you’re talking about.Ìý

Xander: Yeah.Ìý

Miri: It’s in, you know, like a third of all of New Yorker headlines these days, so.

Virtual Spaces for Students

Xander: Yeah. I honestly, I can’t take all of the credit for the body doubling because it is something that I believe in. I started doing it in person in the Accessibility Hub, but, uh, no one ever showed up to that. And a part of the thing that I realized was, you know, no one comes to that campus, and no one comes to visit us, and it was a set time, whereas having it be in the Discord made it a little bit more flexible. And people wanted it in the Discord, and they asked about it. And Michelle, who runs the ADHD Peer Resource Group, has been great enough to also start running, like, designated body doubling hours in both Zoom and Discord simultaneously, which is a huge feat. But I was just like, “We need to… We have the lounge here, people should feel free to use it.” One of the big things we talked about was how Discord isn’t as accessible as Zoom when it comes to voice calls. It’s not a perfect solution, but we did get a bot that was recommended by one of our Deaf student advocates that does transcribe what is going on in a voice call so that Deaf students can also participate, like, in a call with hearing folk. And, if they want to have their, like, ASL body double time, that’s also something we’ve talked about, is doing more language specific body doubling. Part of what is great about body doubling and how it aids students is that it encourages those kinds of connections but it also allows students that, like, structure that is lacking from an adult life, you know?

Miri: Yeah, for sure. That’s something I think about a lot is: when I was in my ASL classes, I ran an in-person study group that met for two hours twice every week before each class. And the difference in progress of people who were in that study group, and it was, you know, a very rough study group. It was mostly just hangout, but you didn’t talk. You only used ASL. But people would come and talk about their week, they’d talk about other classes, they’d ask for some help on homework assignments. The difference in improvement for the people who came to that was remarkable and noticeable, even just to other students. And I am curious, how much do you think, especially since the pandemic, the shift to an online-first structure has affected that kind of culture, that kind of ability for students to actually go onto campus and meet up for coffee or something like that before a class and help each other out? And what you are providing is a new way for students to do that?Ìý

Xander: I think that… Hmm. I don’t think that the push for only online is necessarily good, but I don’t think it’s all bad either. I think that the more modalities that are offered is always gonna be good because there are different types of learning.Ìý

Miri: Oh yeah, I agree.Ìý

Xander: I prioritize taking classes in person, because that’s the way I learn. And the people that want the, like, on-campus experience and want to engage are gonna go to campus and engage. But the people who can’t go to campus but still want to, like, engage with other students, there wasn’t really a way to do that before. Like, there’s Panther Hub, and there are remote options for events. But Panther Hub doesn’t really have, like, a, “Hey, let’s all hang out on the fly and send each other messages,” and that kind of stuff. You don’t really get the bonding experience. It’s just like these are the events that you have. Choose one that fits into your schedule that you’re interested in and go, which is — it’s not bad. It’s still options. We like those. But it could be improved.Ìý

Miri: Yeah. I mean, one of the big things about designing for accessibility overall, is not finding one answer that works for absolutely everybody, but maximizing as many things that work for as many different people as possible.Ìý

Xander: Exactly.Ìý

Miri: What are advantages you can think of about having a dedicated online space like your server, as opposed to something, that is in person or something that is more segmented, I suppose, like a Panther Hub would be?Ìý

Xander: I think that what Discord has that other online services don’t, specifically like the other social medias, is it’s an opt-in. You have to want to be there in order to see the thing. You have to want to be in the server, which makes it less like a social media, like, “Here’s all the things that we have going on,” and more of like a, “Here is a space that is made for you.” One of the benefits of it is that it is asynchronous. You can stop it, go to class, do class, do homework, have life, and come back at the end of the day and catch up on everything that’s going on, and you can make connections with people that you may otherwise not have because, you know, you stay up until 2:00 AM and they wake up at 4:00 AM. And so those kinds of connections where it’s not time restrictive, where it’s not, this is the time to interact right now in this moment, otherwise you miss out. Whereas having it be asynchronous and having it be something that’s always going, always evolving, is so important to people that don’t have that traditional 9:00 to 5:00 lifestyle, which I feel like has been so prioritized. Where everything is open between set hours, these are the engagement opportunities. If you don’t conform to this specific timeframe, you don’t get to interact. And I think that having something that is 24/7, anyone can vent, can engage, can post a silly whatever that they found, makes it a lot more community-based.Ìý

Miri: Your — And I noticed , your server as well has a dedicated channel for pet pictures, which is always a must in any good Discord server that I’ve ever been a part of. Yeah, I think that asynchronicity is super important. Well, the combination of asynchronicity and having a real time option like a voice chat, even video call like Discord has, versus something like D2L, which has forums and forum-like options. But that’s entirely asynchronous, you know? There’s no, no real time feedback even if you’re sitting there spamming .Ìý

Xander: Yeah. Also, with things that are like Panther Hub and D2L, you come in with no knowledge of it. You come in with no experience of it. You don’t know what to do with it. I didn’t even know some of these things existed until I was, like, well into a year into my degree. Whereas Discord is… Technically it’s kind of outside the college, where it’s like the server is in the college, but Discord itself you can have experience. You can know some culture things, and you can come in with that knowledge of, “This is how I add alt text. This is how I do this. This is the, like, vibe that I can see of Discord as a whole.”Ìý

Miri: I do love that it supports alt text.Ìý

Xander: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Miri: It’s, it’s… Like, why? Why doesn’t everything do that? Why doesn’t Google do that?Ìý

Xander: I do wish that their alt text wasn’t as hidden as it is. Like, if there was a way to view it. But that’s mainly because I want to, like, check and see if it exists.Ìý

Conclusion

Miri: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I’ll wrap it up shortly here and let you have a little bit of a break before the rest of your workday. But, I know that Discord is, you know, common, just an everyday part of our lives for people around our age, and who grew up into the internet. But I know a lot of people have no idea what Discord is or how to use it. So what is Discord? And also, how do you find these things that you’re talking about, like either this in-person schedule, or get an invite to the Discord server?

Xander: I’ll end on our invite to the discord server. And I’ll start with Discord is a community space. I believe it was originally kind of focused on gaming specifically. It is composed of, you have a server, which is essentially a place that you can go that you have to be invited to. It’s a closed club. Some of them are open. Ours is closed, where you have to have an invite to get in. It’s a collection of text channels, some of them that you can write in. A lot of them have their title is, like, the topic, where if it’s general, you can talk about whatever. If it’s resources, that’s mainly for resources. A lot of them are very self-explanatory. We keep the event stuff closed so that we can make sure that the events that are being posted are events that are approved.Ìý

Miri: And by ‘ we’ you mean the moderators, the people running the server?Ìý

Xander: Yes, mainly me. Mainly me and a couple of the other student advocates. And then there are voice channels. I did speak with someone at one point who thought that Discord was one voice channel, and when you joined Discord, you just dropped into a voice channel, and I was horrified by the prospect.Ìý

Miri: Oh, yeah. No, that’s what Zoom is for.

Xander: Everything that is in a Discord server is opt-in. You choose to engage with it. You choose how you engage with it. If you don’t wanna be in voice channels, you don’t have to be. We keep track of all of the resources in forum posts so that people can share their experiences with resources. So if someone has a bad experience, you know about it. If someone has a great experience, you know about it. Our Discord has flyers all around campus where you can scan the QR code and join. The permanent link to our Discord is also on the pcc.edu webpage for the accessibility hub specifically. It’s underneath the picture of the coordinator where it says, “Join our Discord,” and then . And that’s how you might —

Miri: Which I’ll, I’ll put in the episode description as well.Ìý

Xander: Yeah. And that is where you can, you can join us. We’re pretty chill. Like we say, we got a bunch of body doubling going on. There’s some reworking. I am getting ready to put a bunch of documentation together for the next person who’s gonna run it because, as I’m no longer a ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ student, I’m not a student advocate anymore, so I’m just wrapping up that loose end before transferring out.

Miri: Nice. This is a good service that you provide, that I think will help a lot of people. And hopefully after hearing about it here, help even more people, so.Ìý

Xander: Hopefully.Ìý

Miri: Thank you very much for talking with me today, and good luck getting your overseas librarian applications in.Ìý

Xander: Thank you.

Miri: And I hope you get to spend a nice two years kicking back in, like, Dublin, or Oslo, or…

Xander: Yeah, that would be really nice. I’ve looked at the University of Librarianship in Sweden, so you never know, you know?Ìý

Miri: Ooh. Yeah, that would be a good choice, too. All right. Yeah. Thank you very much, and have a great rest of your day.

Xander: You too.Ìý

Outro Disclaimer

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel,Ìý, and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

Intro & Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Miguel: Hello, everyone and welcome to a brand new episode of Let’s Talk! All Access. Today on this very special episode, I am here with two of my friends who are participating in the Ability IT program with me. We are here to talk about our experience in the program. So, we have Amani and Todd, would you both like to introduce yourselves and let the listeners know what motivated you to apply to Ability IT?

Amani: Hi, my name’s Amani. Before entering the program, I had started studying for the CompTIA A plus certificates. I was already interested in a career in cybersecurity. But, I didn’t have a background in IT. So, I enrolled in an online class and then did a internship at a local tech recycling organization, “Free Geek”. I was working in their reuse and refurbishment department. Refurbishing laptops and desktops since that was a really good experience. Then I just happened to hear about the AbilIT program through Instagram, actually, while I was looking at college programs that I could apply to. So, I applied and was really happy when I found out that I was accepted.

Miguel: How about you, Todd?Ìý

Todd: Like Amani, I also volunteered at Free Geek when I first moved to Portland. I’ve always been into computer stuff fixing hardware and some software issues and going through threads in Reddit and troubleshooting my own things. An interest in IT in general. Then, last year was December of 2024, I broke my ankle and after I got outta the hospital, and was recuperating, I was looking through jobs related to people who have disabilities. ‘Cause my background is in culinary and I could not do that with a broken ankle. So, I was looking through Portland Resources to find any kind of employment with people who have disabilities. That’s where I found out about Ability and Relay resources. I’m glad I got picked for it. This was the thing on my list for this year.

Miguel: That’s awesome! I should probably share with the listeners why I joined the program. For some of the listeners that know what I do, for others that don’t, I’ve done accessibility testing. But, I’ve always been interested in like learning how the interiors of computers work. So, one of the aspects that I really wanted to learn was like all of the different aspects of learning how to computer is put together, different aspects you can add, like in regards to learning how to add like extra hard drives or adding specific specs to your computer to make it work faster. I think that’s super fascinating, so I learned about the AbilIT program; I had an email sent to our ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ casual student list or employees list. I was like, “oh, this seems cool!”. So, I went on the website and I applied. I always love learning. So, that’s one of my good skills is I love to learn. So, when I applied, I’m like this could be a good idea for me to learn and see what opportunities can be out there. I knew some technicians in the field before and I was always curious of all the stuff that they did and setting up computers. Especially, when I worked for the community college, when they set up all of our office space, I was always intrigued of, “oh, how does this work?”, and how do you guys put in all the cables through the walls and stuff. So, that was my curiosity of why I ended up joining the program. I know we’re all studying CompTIA for A plus certifications. What was your experience in the first week of the program? Were you guys like intimidated? Not sure?Ìý

Starting The Program

Todd: Overwhelming. It was a lot. I think once I saw the whole Comp TIA 90 question quiz and all of the things, that I’ve never seen anything about, described; I know I was kind of in a new world and had to plan accordingly.

Amani: For me, personally, I was excited, but a little nervous about all the material that I was going to be learning. Since I’ve never worked in the field and I just started studying IT in 2025. I knew that a lot of the material would be new to me, so that just made me a little bit nervous. But, I was really excited.Ìý

Miguel: I would probably say the same sentiment here. Because, I was really nervous and I’m like, “okay, now I need to figure out what’s my plan of action to complete this IT program.”. Because, I also felt very overwhelmed in learning the materials. For the people that want to learn IT; I know you guys talked about like Reddit posts and looking stuff up online, I think that helped a lot at the very beginning just to understand the material. There’s a YouTuber called, “Burning Ice Tech” and they really do really well explaining down the sections. Just being able to have it be repetitive, because that’s the way I learn. I don’t know about you guys, but repetition of listening to info, and having it hands on, is very helpful; at least for me. So, what do you guys think of that?

Todd: I like “Burning Tech”. I saw him too. I was just trying to scan the information as many times over and over again, even if it didn’t make a whole lot of sense and kind of just get that burned into my memory. But, he and a couple other YouTubers, I’ve been scouring YouTube for other people explaining A+, and tech in general. When there’s a human interaction, like a human description, metaphors, or examples they can use, it kind of helps me a lot with getting that information in my head because it gives it a real world application instead of just reading a phone book or an encyclopedia and trying to imagine that all that’s gonna be photo printed in my brain. It’s good to hear it from another person who can kind of describe why it exists.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. I share Miguel’s feelings about getting hands-on experience. That’s why I looked for an internship, because I was learning online and doing a lot of reading of my textbook, but I just knew that I really needed to be able to apply what I was learning in real time so that I could retain the information.

Miguel: Yeah, those are really good points. Textbooks can only do so much! Especially in the IT field. Having that internship experience is definitely more helpful. So, like maybe one day we can all go to the “Geek Squad” and play with the cables and see if they’ll let us take some computers apart or put ’em together. I think that would be fun!Ìý

Todd: Mm-hmm. “Free geek”.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Do you have any advice for any people that wanna start in the IT field?

Todd: Clear your docket, have time on your hand. Because, it’s a lot depending on what your own background is. It’s more than I thought.Ìý

Amani: For me, I would tell someone, who is interested in getting started in IT, to do a lot of reading. That is one piece of advice that I got from someone in the field is just to read and just consume the information any way that you can. Because, practically, unless you’re building your own computer, or doing your own labs, or IT simulations online, you won’t have an opportunity to apply a lot of what you’re learning or really see everything that you’re learning about, unless you are in a relevant role. So, I was told to just read books, read articles or even find other people, study materials to read. Because, just having familiarity with the concepts will help a lot once you do get in a role and then you can be like, “oh, I haven’t seen this before. But, I know I recall this.”.Ìý

Todd: And having broken equipment you try to fix.

Miguel: Yes. The troubleshooting definitely helps. Do either of you two feel that you guys have learned any new tech skills so far? Like an, “aha!” Moment?

Amani: Yeah, I would say learning the different types of hardware that are part of any computer. Learning what their functions are, what their names are, how to replace them. Learning how to determine what computer components are compatible with a motherboard or battery. Troubleshooting networking and software, errors is another one. That’s a couple off the top of my mind.Ìý

Todd: I think the troubleshooting procedure, Is an important thing that’s going to serve me well. ‘Cause it helps me slow down and look at things methodically and not just jump around with my ADHD brain at whatever shiniest things popping out, or the most exciting thing I want to dig into. But, really slow down, take a step by step process that’s been tried and true to get the most efficient outcome, I guess.

Miguel: Yeah, for sure. I was like super fascinated when like, Mariah, my job coach was describing how the inside of a motherboard looks like. ‘Cause most of this is so visual. So, for me, just having those little moments of like description are just so fascinating to me. “Wow, is that really how tiny those little ports are?”, to where the internet cables go, or where the hard drive is. That is so fascinating! I always find that super interesting to learn about and just have the connections, like this is when they talk about a “Wi-Fi card” or the “sound card”, or just the different areas where you put in the cables.

Todd: There’s a lot crammed in there.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, there’s so much in there! You’re like, “What? This all fits into one square rectangle place?” It’s really cool!

Todd: There’s some YouTube channels; it’s like a talk show of computer tech from the late nineties, like when Windows 95 just came out, and you see their hardware and all the stuff they have and it’s hilarious! All the legacy things they have. But, I think that’s a pretty good visual example. ‘Cause everything’s like shrunk like four times since then and it crammed way more things together. “Now you can send texts to somebody in another state!”

Miguel: “And, you don’t have to use a floppy disk drive!”

Todd: Yeah! All the things we take for granted and how much the hardware has accelerated since then.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Yesterday, I was at Free Geek. And I felt like; Apple, the early ones that was made in the eighties, they were selling one there for a hundred dollars. There was an Atari, they were selling an Atari there as well. That was super neat! I was like, “that sounds so cool! Thanks for the buttons that I can feel again!”Ìý

Amani: Miguel, were you attending one of Free Geeks-

Miguel: The Popup?

Amani: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, yeah! I was there yesterday. ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Amani: Awesome! So, did you go home with anything?Ìý

Miguel: No, I was just there. I was there with Mariah to ask them about all the different ADA cables and stuff like that. Yeah. Because I want them to feel some of them. But, we were gonna have to go back and they’re gonna pick some cables out, so I can feel all of them. But, it was super cool to feel all the technology and those big monitors, that they used to use. It’s so wild how like monitors are so small now compared to like what they used to be.Ìý

Todd: PRTs? Yeah.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah!

Amani: I think that was a great idea to go to “Free Geek” and that is something that I would definitely recommend, to anyone who’s interested in getting into IT, is just checkout your local IT related businesses and see how you can get involved. Volunteering, if they offer internships, or if they can just show you like any IT components that they may just have on hand. I know “Free Geek” specifically has a lot of legacy devices, so if you wanna know like what a “Heat Sink” looks like, they have so many different models from a decade ago to now, and they have them in copper and different materials. So, I would definitely utilize the businesses in your community that can fill in some of the knowledge gaps for you.

Miguel: I love that idea. I can’t wait to ask them how those feel. ‘Cause, that’s like the next thing that I wanna learn. I wanna like feel the “heat sink” ones. Did you guys have any specific parts of the course you liked to learn about so far?

Todd: I like Maslow’s Hierarchy, the pyramid. That’s something I’ve gone through, I guess, through my life for the past few years; over and over again to find the most important things in your life and how you can self-actualize. But, first you have to keep a healthy balance of food and shelter. It’s something I look at when I’m really stressed out too, where it’s like, “all right, where am I at? Are enough of my other needs met before I can start studying for this?”.

Miguel: I feel you for sure. How about you, Amani?Ìý

Amani: For me, I really appreciate the strong foundation that I’ve been given through the AbilIT program. Not only learning IT concepts, but being able to learn with others. I feel like, in the program, I’ve learned a lot from just talking about IT concepts that we’ve been learning with my peers and learning from them. Sometimes other people will have a good analogy of how to remember something and I found that really useful. I think the most difficult, part of the IT study for me was networking and virtualization. That took me a little bit more of dedicated study to really understand.

Miguel: So, I know that we spend a lot of time in the program, but shall we tell the listeners how our typical days look like for them to learn. So, in the morning we have Personal Development Classes and they talk about networking, connecting, resume, cover letters, all that good jazz. Then the afternoon we study for our CompTIA Certifications. So, sometimes we’re split up into groups and we take time to learn. Two days are in person and two days are remote, so we take time to learn about the different sections. At this point, a lot of us read all areas. Have you guys learned any new study techniques that have helped you guys so far?

Todd: I just crammed in through “Cybrary” and the CompTIA website, the quizzes. Take the quizzes, fail the quizzes, fail them again, and just keep- That’s how I learned the best is just by jumping on in and trying to apply what I know and then learning my mistakes.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. For me, I would say flashcards and taking practice questions has been the most helpful, and hands-on labs.Ìý

Miguel: The quizzes definitely helped me out. ‘Cause when I don’t understand a concept, I’m like, “let me go back and re-listen to the videos and see if I can understand where I missed specific concepts, like in the networking.”. I know that’s gonna be a hard one for me too when I get to that one. That’s one that I’m definitely gonna struggle on. So, probably just repetition and retaking the quizzes over, and over, and over again till it like finally makes sense or being able to understand. I did do a certificate on accessibility and web content, which is a little bit different. Because, it’s a lot more guidelines and basis. There is a lot of physical stuff that goes on to it, but I learned it more faster because that’s what I was doing for a job and so it was a little more helpful.

Amani: I have a question for you guys. What has been the most exciting skill that you’ve gained during the program?Ìý

Skills Gained During The Program

Todd: Time management, I guess. Or, trying to recalibrate what I think about it. ‘Cause things seem to either take way longer or way less than I do, than I first imagined. Time management’s always an issue for me, especially when you’re balancing endless swaths of knowledge and project deadlines kinda on the same day.Ìý

Amani: Yeah, that’s a good answer. What about you, Miguel?Ìý

Miguel: I would honestly agree with Todd; time management. Because, in my undergrad degree, I tend to procrastinate a lot. I think the one that helped me out was putting it into my calendar. Because, I literally open it up every single day and I’m like, “okay, it’s time to study!” or “we have class at this time.”. So, having those times in there along with like my work hours, it puts a little more into perspective where I need to allocate my time and energy. I think that’s something that’s important, at least for me. Moving forward, in my life, is actually putting all of my stuff on my calendar. Even though that’s gonna be super tedious, but it’s honestly been more helpful in the long run. ‘Cause then I can go into my calendar and see I gotta do this for Tuesday, and it has to be done. I can be very forgetful just because of all the stuff that I have going on. I sometimes try to balance a little too much and it doesn’t work, because I forget to write it all down and I will tend to forget certain things. So, I think that’s what that skill that I’ve personally have learned from this is to have a little more connections with like my Reminders App and calendar, and just sit a couple of minutes a day and get those completed and put into there. ‘Cause I think that’s what’s been working for me the most.

Amani: Yeah, I think the advantage of using a calendar like a time-based calendar is seeing, I actually don’t have time to do all the things that I thought that I wanted to do. It just keeps you realistic. How would you guys say the program prepares participants for real IT environments?

Miguel: For me, I believe the main thing that I’ve taken out of this is the connections that I’ve made with you guys. I really take those to heart. You guys are amazing people with like such amazing different backgrounds. Todd had done culinary and all sorts of things, same with you, Amani. I’ve definitely felt the connection with you guys and I am really grateful that I get to study alongside you guys. Regardless of where our IT jobs take us, both of you can know that I will always be here to write a recommendation letter, or sit as a reference and I can make that connection for you if there’s a specific job that I find. So, having those type of connections into the program– especially, because, for me, I can be very social but one of the things that I struggled with in my undergrad was not making a lot of friends at the end of my bachelor’s just because I did my online degree through an online program. So, that was pretty difficult to make those connections, so that’s one of the other reasons why I joined. ‘Cause I wanted to just make more friends and go out there again. It’s really hard as an adult. You can make work friends, but it’s just not the same as being able to have something to bond over our frustrations of infrastructure, of networking, or trying to understand a concept in building a computer, or whatever. Maybe your printers or the different sections. I think, that’s for me, what I take the most from this is the experience learning from you guys. Because, I always feel like I’m always learning something new and just being able to conceptualize it and ask you guys, “Hey, how did you guys understand this material?” or “what did you guys use?”. I always feel like I’m always learning. What about you guys?

Amani: I wanna say thank you for the sentiment that you expressed, that you really appreciate the relationships that you’ve built. I feel the exact same way. I really have enjoyed getting to know everyone that’s in our program. The more I get to learn about you guys, I’m just like, “you guys are so awesome!”. We have just so many talents and interests reflected in our cohort. But, I found that everyone has been so supportive and it’s just a really positive community of people. It is nice that we all share neurodivergence so that we have that in common. We just have an understanding of what it’s like to kind of navigate a workplace or a job when you have a disability or a neurodivergence. I feel that we’ve all given each other a lot of grace and understanding, but we are a really supportive group, so I really like that as well. I think the program prepares us for real IT environments, or the obvious answer is, by giving us IT skills. But, our IT instructor has spent a lot of time instructing us on is how to have the right mindset for working in an IT environment. How to really troubleshoot and find the next steps for what is like a plausible root cause and how to identify credible sources when you are looking for plausible reasons. So, I really appreciate that.Ìý

Todd: Yeah. They don’t guide you. They slightly guide you, but you’re on your own. Which is probably what it’s gonna be like really in the IT world is; instead of having a set instruction manual of what to do next, you’re gonna have to start diving in and doing as much research and learning about the problem as possible on your own, just based off of whatever, critical thinking skills you have.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. I would actually say, in my experience, that we get a lot of guidance. But, we don’t get the answers. So, for example, if you’re stuck on an IT problem and let’s say you have a laptop that you’ve connected to an external monitor. But, the monitor isn’t reflecting your laptop screen and if you ask someone in the program to help you, they won’t do it for you. They will tell you to Google it, and if you’re still having trouble, they may give you a hint of where to look, or help you talk through what could be the issue. But, they won’t give you the answers. In the program, they really try to cultivate a mindset of troubleshooting; “what do I know?”, “what information is lacking based on what is working?”, “What do I know about what the problem is not related to?”, and “where do I need to divert my attention?”, basically.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, those are really good things that we definitely learned. I’ve always had to tell myself that whenever I have an issue with the computer, I’m like, “let’s be curious again”. We were kids and ask questions and try to find answers to it. So, I always feel like I’m the secret investigative journalist trying to figure out why is this not working and how can I fix this issue and save the day type of thing. I don’t know if that’s probably a silly analogy, but it’s one that I came up with!Ìý

Todd: Especially when you know that it can be fixed. These things happen every day, so it’s more of a puzzle than a problem. You just kind of have to figure out the right way to approach it.Ìý

Miguel: Oh, yeah. For me, like having just the cheerful attitude. One of the things from Personal development that stuck with me from the very beginning; I don’t know if either of you two remember the video on the gal who talked about when people have the mindset of “I can’t”, and the people that say, “I can’t yet”. So, I think having the mindset of, “I don’t know this yet.”. “I don’t know this”, but adding the word “yet” to the end. Now that I’ve been through some of the sections in the program, I’m like, “I can’t do this yet.”. So, that’s definitely been helpful for me to just bring up those little positive moments of learning and having those connections with you guys. I feel like every time we be able to fix a puzzle or like, when we were trying to fix that station that wasn’t working at the beginning of the term. I thought it was just so much fun to figure it out and why it wasn’t working and looking up the numbers on the keyboard to see what type of keyboard it was and the mouse. I think it was just super neat and helpful for us to just have that hands-on experience for that.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. A growth mindset is definitely another mindset that we’ve really been pushed to adopt in this program.

Transferring Skills

Miguel: Do you guys feel that some of your other skills, that you’ve learned before, have transferred into here? Like maybe with the other participants, or just learning. I knew coming in that I’m a horrible note taker and I admit that; I’m like horrible! I write notes and then later I wanna read ’em, I’m like, “what was I trying to write? Makes no sense!”. But, I honestly, I’ve gotten better over the years. It used to be much worse! At least now they’re eligible that I can kind of remember what I was writing about. Don’t ask me about my middle school notes, ’cause those were atrocious. Those were definitely atrocious! So, learning, for me, it’s okay to not know the answers to everything. That’s been kind of hard because, “how am I gonna figure this out?” But, having that mindset, “if I try it these three other ways, there may be a solution that I may not have even thought about.”. So, that’s something that I’ve definitely grown on as a person after being in the program. I’ve learned these are my good skill sets of me being a good listener, and that can definitely help when people are in the field and they’re upset, because their computer’s broken and they can’t find their document, or whatever. What did you guys think?Ìý

Todd: Well, I think my past experiences with working in kitchens, and also working on my car, where you’ve got an old piece of equipment and it breaks down, but you still have to figure out how it works. And, there could be hundreds of ways it went wrong, but there’s more than likely a usual culprit, or usual suspect.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah.Ìý

Todd: So, I think once you figure out what the problem is and how it’s used, you can sort of zero in on the first steps you should take to resolving it. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Miguel: It totally does. What about you, Amani?

Amani: I don’t really have a cut and dry answer for that, actually. I did know about hardware and how to replace or update internal hardware components due to my refurbishment internship experience. But, I think a lot of the transferable skills that I brought to the program were more related to the professional development training than the IT training. Just building interpersonal relationships and creating an inclusive environment and community building; that was something that I knew that was important to me, as well as, the IT training part of the program. Because, this is the first time that I have been in an environment where I’m with other people that are also neurodivergent and have an opportunity to see them multiple days for weeks on end. It was important to me to build relationships with my fellow trainees. Because, I just value having people in my circle who can relate to navigating the world with a disability. That’s one of the reasons why I created a group chat for our cohort, so that we could just connect with each other outside of the classroom as well.

Miguel: Yeah, that’s a really good networking opportunity for us to keep connected. When you told me about the group chat, I’m like, “sweet! I’ll be part of it!”. So, I really appreciate you doing that for us. That was awesome!Ìý

Todd: Yeah.Ìý

Amani: I’m so thankful that both of you guys have joined and that it’s been used.

Todd: I’ll keep it up too if it’s still being used afterwards. ‘Cause, there’s a whole lot of certifications to get through.Ìý

Amani: Yes, it’s true.Ìý

Miguel: Oh, yeah! I personally, would love to do Networking and the Security Plus Certifications. I don’t know if you guys wanna do those, but like I was thinking of doing those as well.

Todd: I’m planning on it.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. The Network and Security Plus our part of the industry standard for someone who is in a cybersecurity role. So, that is definitely part of my goal as well.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, that’s cool that we all have similar goals. Because, starting this, I was just really bummed out, ’cause I had just finished college and my bachelor’s degree and I had to apply to like more than a hundred jobs since last June. My technical abilities and accessibility testing were like helpful and maybe I should get an IT certification to match that or see if that would open up more doors for me in the long run. So, for me, understanding accessibility has, honestly, been helpful and frustrating at the same time.Ìý

Accessibility of Information

Amani: Can you go into a little bit, like what’s been helpful and what’s been frustrating for you?Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, yeah, of course! One of the things that I, personally, find difficult is the amount of information thrown at us. Like on the videos, without having other forms of specific breakdown of information. By that, I mean if there was a video it would be cool if there was also a blocks of texts or maybe if there was like an audio component to it. So, for example, for me sometimes, like I don’t wanna listen to a video, or listen to it via audio, or be able to download it and add your notes into it as well. I think that would be really helpful. Not just for me personally, but I think like you guys would get a good understanding of it as well. Some of the stuff that’s been a little more frustrating for me is the access to certain web platforms. Unfortunately, in the accessibility field and in the universal design, sometimes they bring it in at the end of the project versus at the very beginning, like in the web development stage or development of the product. So, unfortunately instead of having those skills, and having readers installed or like proper HTMO, semantically labeled, and alternative texts put on pictures and stuff like that, or being able to navigate a website multiple ways. Like navigating through a search bar and there’s another way you can navigate it through specific blocks of text, or information gathering. Unfortunately, a lot of times, it’s thought of an afterthought, so that can be really frustrating. Because, the sad reality is even as a tester I can be like, “Hey, there’s all these issues.”, companies move very, very slow. So, change takes quite a few years. So, even having that skillset, I’ve learned to be more patient with myself and not get frustrated. But, sometimes it’s been really hard when something’s just accessible with the mouse and not the keyboard. I spend an exuberant amount of time just to try to be able to, access the same material and sometimes it’s really hard. For me, that’s what’s been the hardest.

Amani: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think, that is certainly frustrating and that there’s going to be organizations that, until they have someone with a specific disability that is not as prevalent; a lot of the times it takes that person, applying to their program or like really becoming part of their world, for them to adopt accessibility strategies that are inclusive for that particular disability. So, I definitely hear you that it’s frustrating, but I also wanna commend you for not just thinking, “oh, I can’t do it”, and not applying, or not trying. Cause that visibility is so important.

Miguel: Aw, thank you, Amani. I appreciate that. I won’t lie, there’s days that are like really difficult, sometimes. I’m like, “man, what did I get myself into? What was I thinking?”. But, I know that with me learning these skills, I know they’re gonna be helpful with other aspects of my life, like going into the IT field. I know when, in the field, if people have questions of, “how are you gonna check printers?”, or “how are you gonna check these cables?”. Then I can tell them, “I know the shape of the cable”, or “I know what they’re called”. I was able to memorize ’em and find in accommodated troubleshooting way, to learn those skills. I believe, and I know, that that’s gonna be helpful for me in the future. So, yeah. I know it’s hard, but it’s not anything that I can’t learn or have the opportunity to understand a little better.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. It’s always hard to be the first, But, you will be one of the people who will make this program more accessible for future blind applicants, and that’s a really significant thing.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. I really feel that. My goal always is to not just help the blind, but everyone else. So, I hope you guys have felt a little more supported with me in the class. I hope I was able to transmit that throughout these last 13 weeks.Ìý

Todd: Yeah. I think you’ll be a great teacher after this too. Because, you perceive the information in a different way than we do. So, you’ll be able to explain it in a way that would be new to somebody else who maybe isn’t even vision impaired. But, you can understand it from different angles. So, I think you can convey that information in a different way.Ìý

Miguel: No, I think so. Because, if I can learn this networking concept, or I know these computer parts are super tiny. But, if I can learn that maybe I can help other people and troubleshoot their issues in the long run, regardless of them having visioned or non visioned. In school, they used to ask me like, “Hey, Miguel, can you help me with this visual task?”, I’m like, “oh, man. I don’t know.”. Because, I didn’t know that a lot of the buttons on the computers had like little pictures on them. I know like the recycle bins, the trash bin, or like the safe bins, like a little folder.

Amani: Oh, yeah! Like “icons”.Ìý

Miguel: Like little icons. So, I was trying to explain to them one time, “oh, you go to the save icon, do you?”, they’re like, “what’s the save icon?”. So, I’m like, “the little folder!”. I know I was probably laughing at it out, but I didn’t know that I was troubleshooting and helping them at the same time.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. Well, we’ve talked a little bit about what a typical day in the program looks like. But, one thing that we didn’t mention, that I just want to share with the listeners, is that towards the end of the program, you start meeting with a employment consultant that helps you find an entry level IT job. Well, it’s not necessarily entry level. It depends on your experience, your knowledge base, and what certifications you’ve earned. But, there is someone in the program, who’s part of the program staff, who helps you find a job and that, is really helpful as well.

Todd: Getting a year of support too is going to be good for me. Because, I’m not wrapping up everything right now. I’m going to take a couple months to recollect and then be able to use those resources in the future.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. I know we have a year for this and we can all hold each other accountable or, help each other out in different ways after the program. So, I feel like that’s really important as well.

Future Plans in IT

Todd: Do you guys have any plans of any specific IT direction you want to go in?Ìý

Amani: Cybersecurity, for me.

Miguel: I was thinking of applying for an IT job at Amazon. Just because I already worked there. I think that would be cool. But, then I asked the other day at work, I’m like, maybe I can ask them if they would allow me to like dabble in it, so I can get some experience? So, I hope they allow me like to fix devices or going through like some of their networking settings and be able to practice some of the skills we’re using. ‘ Cause, hopefully they allow me to, if not, that’s okay. But, even just having that experience, will help in the future. Honestly, I would love to be, part of like a technician team. I think that would be super fun. When I met a couple of technicians at my previous job, they were super kind, very helpful. So, I think I would love to start there and maybe doing like an analyst role later on. But, I think that would be super cool. Maybe do different gigs on helping others; setting up their network in nonprofits, or stuff like that. I think a lot of people could use that. Because, I thought it was like, “oh, setting up computers must not be that complicated.”. I was listening to the videos, I’m like, “oh, wow! This is a lot more complicated than I thought it was!”.Ìý

Amani: Yeah.Ìý

Todd: Lot of networking stuff.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah! I was like, “wait, what? If you have more than multiple computers; okay, you gotta do all these different steps now. Okay! That’s good to know!”… What about you Todd?Ìý

Todd: I’m not really sure yet. ‘Cause I could say “anything”, but I’d have to get my toes wet with it. I dunno, something with maintenance, maybe. Maybe it would be the infrastructure of networking. Like getting to know an area and how to maintain it and find the problems. Basic day-to-day functioning. Keeping the ship afloat sort of thing.

Amani: I think a helps desk role. Maybe a managed service provider where I would just have exposure to a lot of different types of IT tickets; is probably where I’d like to start.

Miguel: I think you would be really good at that.Ìý

Amani: Thank you.Ìý

Accommodations

Miguel: Yeah, I think you’d be excellent at that. For the accommodations, how do you guys feel about asking for accommodations? Are you guys hesitant? Are you guys nervous?Ìý

Amani: That is a good question. The topic of heavy discussion in our program. We did learn about “AskJan .org”. That website has a lot of resources for an array of different disabilities and can help you decide a possible accommodations. It kind of lists accommodations by disability and has helpful advice on drafting accommodation request letters as well. Personally, I have requested work place accommodations before.

Miguel: I know some people were like, “no, I don’t wanna disclose my disability or ask for accommodations.”. I’ve asked for them before in my different work environments. For me, people have been very transparent; if they can or cannot offer an accommodation. But, one thing that I learned from my journalism teacher that I always carry is “question everything”. I know it’s a silly thing, but I feel like asking questions; the least they can say is “no”. So, asking never hurts. ‘Cause you just never know what they’ll say.Ìý

Amani: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Todd: You need to advocate for yourself sometimes. Because, it looks bad if you don’t. So, you might as well be up front.Ìý

Miguel: Right? Yeah, I’ve learned that experience of like always asking always asking, “what do I need?”, and it’s okay. And I always tell people this, “it’s okay to ask for accommodations. It’s okay to ask for what you need in a different format.”. That’s totally okay. One thing that I’ve learned to troubleshoot is; if this format doesn’t work for me this way, let me see if I can figure out a way to convert into a format where I can completely understand it. So, that’s one of the skills that I’ve learned. Honestly, it’s helped a lot. What do you guys feel has been the most rewarding thing about this experience?

Amani: Well, Miguel, before we move on I just had a thought about requesting accommodations? One helpful piece of advice that we heard in the program was, if you happen to start a role without having requested accommodations; by the time that you are getting to requesting an accommodation, you kind of have a feel for the norms and the expectations of your workplace. It is really helpful to not just say, ” oh, I have a disability and I’m struggling with this…”, but also pre plan solutions or have ideas, that you can present on just present solutions. Because, one thing that our instructors taught us was it’s better to present solutions to go with a problem than just presenting problems.

Todd: When I ask too, being clinically scatterbrained, it helps me get on my first step too. When I know what to ask it means that I’m organizing my own thoughts too. So, it helps me get my first step out of the way, in order to initiate whatever issue I’m having. If I can put it into words to communicate that to somebody else then I can help understand it myself.

Amani: Absolutely. And sometimes writing it out helps with that too.

Miguel: Yeah, that’s a big one. I tend to write stuff down before I say out loud. Sometimes I’m like, “does that sound okay to say out loud?”.Ìý

Amani: Yeah!

Miguel: Also like bouncing ideas off of each other and like learning what works, or what others have done in the past. Maybe that can be helpful as well.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. And finding a safe mentor within the workplace. If you find someone who has the role that you would like to be in one day, or has a skillset that you feel you could improve on, or even if they have a weakness that you also share, and if you feel that they are trustworthy. Approaching them to learn from them is always a good strategy; something else that was suggested to us in the program.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Fortunately, I’ve been really fortunate to have found good mentors throughout my life in different areas. They’ve been definitely super helpful in my learning experience, even though most of them are not blind themselves. But, they’ve been super helpful in just life and going through college and university. Just different aspects of my life, where I’ve definitely needed help. It’s been helpful having a mentor to be there, bounce ideas and sometimes you just need them to like get you going sometimes and you’re like, “okay, I got this. I can do this.”.Ìý

Amani: Yeah!

Todd: Good to be with like-minded individuals.Ìý

Miguel: For sure! Yeah! That’s so helpful in the long run for all of us! ‘Cause, when you have people that think similar towards you, you just feel empowered and feel like, “yeah, we can all do this and get this all done!”. I know the days where I am sometimes super burnt out and I’m like, “man, what am I doing?”, some days. Then I think of you guys and I’m like, okay, I can do this!”. You guys kinda gimme that spark.

Soft Skills

Amani: Yeah. One other thing, that we have been taught in this program, is that technical skills alone don’t just guarantee workplace success. Soft skills remain really important in any work environment, even if it’s IT, as well. What are some soft skills that you guys have learned about. Not for the first time, but just have practiced or learned something new about within this program?Ìý

Miguel: I’m horrible keeping up to the LinkedIn. That’s just me. But, it was good just to go back and refresh my brain of; adding a proper headline, keeping up with their current jobs. I think that’s what’s been helpful. Having those conversations with people making sure that they’re professional. Keeping the professional tone. I always struggle with professional tone, but that’s something that like I’ll continue to work on.Ìý

Amani: For me, we did some exercises around time management and strategies on how to prioritize when you have multiple competing priorities, so that was really helpful. I don’t remember what the name of the concept is called. But, we looked at a diagram and there were priorities that were urgent, priorities that were not urgent, priorities that are important, and priorities that aren’t. So, I thought that that was helpful as well.

Todd: The soft skills; back to what I was saying before with advocating for yourself, communicating whatever’s going on, so a little snowball doesn’t turn into an avalanche. Communicate what you need, understand it yourself, and then not get like overwhelmed or really stressed when you’re getting diverted off of whatever path you imagined. So, communication is a good one. Just to kind of see what other people are thinking outside of your own head. If you can get the feedback from people that maybe you weren’t imagining you’d get is probably more helpful.

Miguel: Yeah. I’m always my worst critic. ‘Cause, I’m like, “oh, no! How dare you write it this way?”, or “how dare you think of this concept in this direction?”.

Todd: Yeah, what I was talking about with Amani earlier; some of the things that I was discounting about this program she got a lot of use out of. It’s good to get different perspectives on things. Reorient myself.Ìý

Amani: I’m just thinking about how teamwork and collaboration show up in IT Jobs. I feel that in most workplaces, if you have a good size team, you will be interacting with people with a different communication style, different thresholds of frustration and patience. We also did a lot of work in this program; practicing and thinking about different ways that you could respond to a supervisor or a colleague who is maybe difficult, or difficult to work with or, needs a lot of collaboration or handholding. Just how to be peaceful and efficient team member. So, I don’t know if you guys have any other thoughts about teamwork and collaboration in an IT job?Ìý

Teamwork and Collaboration in IT

Miguel: I feel like it’s just important to learn how to work in a team, in general, regardless of what job you go into. But, yeah. I think it’s helpful like in an IT job. Depending on where you work, but you probably work with so many different types of people and backgrounds. I’m pretty sure it can be very stressful, especially trying to fix someone’s computer over the phone. Different issues that arise like that. Definitely having the skillset to understand how your coworkers work and maybe work alongside of them is definitely helpful.

Amani: Staying calm under pressure if you are in a support role and someone’s really frustrated and maybe yelling at you, or just being unnecessarily rude.

Miguel: Definitely. It’s good practice, honestly, to have that, and just learn. Learning the basic skills to help you keep yourself under control and keeping yourself professional in a neutral place. That’s helpful. I think that helped me out because I do horrible with conflict and I just wanna walk away sometimes. I’m like, “no, you can’t do that.”.

Todd: It takes practiceÌý

Miguel: For sure. It definitely takes practice.Ìý

Todd: I used to have to kick people out of the Art Museum. This was a job I had over a decade ago. But, it was like, I do not know how to tell people to leave. How to command somebody to do something. But, you find your voice. Try to find the connection between a stranger and you and how you would wanna be talked to.

Amani: Yeah, I can see how that would be intimidating.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Tell us about that!Ìý

Todd: The museum was closing, so it’d be the last 10 minutes and then everybody wants to stay till the last minute. “Okay, you guys, seriously, have to leave right now.”. So, yeah. It’s a little nerve wracking at first, then you get used to it.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah, I can be very soft-spoken sometimes. So, I’ve had to learn to speak up and use my outward voice more. Because I can be really quiet. I think I’m being loud, but I’m actually being very quiet. So, learning to speak up that’s helpful. I always feel so bad for people that work in any type of field that have to tell the public, “Hey, you guys need to go now! It’s closing!”.

Todd: Yeah. Get announcer voice. Be interesting, but not overly aggressive.

Amani: Well, Todd, when you were talking about having to kick people out of the museum. It reminded me of an article, I read last week, about a Florida hospital that had filed a lawsuit to evict a patient who refused to leave her room five months after being discharged. She just was like, “no, I live here now.”, and she just refused to leave. I don’t know if you guys saw that.Ìý

Todd: What? No! Five months is a long time. Yeah.Ìý

Miguel: That is a lot!Ìý

Amani: I don’t know if this is the same one. I was gonna say she was charged with trespassing and a judge ordered her to be removed from the premises. But, I’m not certain that’s the same article.

Miguel: Five months! That is a long time, wow!Ìý

Amani: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Miguel: That is so wild! Like why would you wanna stay in the hospital?Ìý

Todd: And get charged like $2,000 a day?Ìý

Amani: I’m not sure what the patient’s situation was. If they were houseless, or maybe it would be the case where like their hospital stay was being covered by insurance, or it wouldn’t be them paying. But, yeah…Ìý

Todd: When I was in the hospital, they let me know what my last day was! They’re like, unless you have $650 in cash every day we’re gonna help relocate you. Which they did. It was a good experience. But, that’s crazy. I can’t even imagine being able to have five months as an option!

Amani: Yeah. They coined a term called “The Hospital Squatter”.Ìý

Todd: You can sit here, there’s tv. I’m gonna hang out for a bit! People know my name…Ìý

Amani: You don’t have to cook your own food!Ìý

Miguel: Right!Ìý

Todd: Yeah. I wish I could sometimes.

Miguel: I can’t believe five months! I had tonsil surgery and they’re like, “no, you’re out the same day, buddy!”. They like had me go through like anesthesia and I came off of the surgery and I remember they were trying to help me off the ER room and I’m just like, “where are we going?”

Todd: Insurance doesn’t want you there either, unless somebody’s advocating their heart out for you. Insurance doesn’t want you there.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. I was there for maybe 45 minutes and then the gal was like, “how are you feeling?” I was just numbed, like, “I don’t even know…”. Apparently, I was talking about guide dogs. I don’t know why.Ìý

Todd: Under anesthesia.Ìý

Miguel: Yeah. Under anesthesia. Maybe that’s what kept me relaxed, was puppies!

Todd: Instant room change. You count to 10 and then all of a sudden I wake up and I’m somewhere else!Ìý

Miguel: Yeah! It was so weird. I remember, “Oh, I’m not sleepy. How are they gonna- Oh!”.Ìý

Todd: Yeah. All of a sudden it’s three hours later.

Amani: Miguel, is there anything that we missed or that you want us to talk about more?

Miguel: Is there anything you wanna leave the listeners with? Any stories you guys wanna leave them with or any fun anecdotes, or any fun experiences?

Todd: Just get a bunch of broken equipment and do your best to see if you can fix it. See what you can and can’t do and you’ll learn 10 times more than you thought you could when you started it.Ìý

Miguel: Perfect! How about you, Amani?Ìý

Amani: Yeah, I think Todd’s advice is really spot on. You could get broken equipment and try to fix it or just low cost refurbished equipment and use that to try to disassemble and assemble computers or radios even, just different devices. Just test out your troubleshooting skills. I think that is it just really getting hands-on experience is really important. Because, it is one thing to know a lot of information in your mind, but you have to be able to just get started and apply it. You can also use personal IT projects to build a portfolio that you can present to prospective employers if you don’t have formal IT work history, as well.

Miguel: That’s very insightful.Ìý

Amani: Do you guys have a message that you would give to someone who is unsure about entering the tech industry?

Todd: Dive on in. Start making mistakes, if they’re not too expensive.Ìý

Miguel: Don’t be afraid to ask for help and have fun throughout the, journey because it’s definitely one that you can enjoy if you really wanna have that experience.Ìý

Amani: Yeah. And I would say don’t give up too easily. IT is not something that’s even for people who have a knack for mechanical engineering, or understanding connections. it’s not easy. It takes work, takes studying, and it takes you pushing past frustration and sometimes taking a break when you need to and coming back to a problem. So, I would say if you’re committed to entering the tech industry, just go for it and don’t give up.

Miguel: All right then. Well, thanks, listeners, for joining us on another episode of Let’s Talk! All Access. Hope you all have a great day.

Outro & Credits

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .Ìý

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

IntroÌý& Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Welcome & Meet Asher

Zoe: Hey, everyone. Welcome to our latest episode of “A Slice of Life”. Here with me today is our guest, who is Asher. Why don’t you introduce yourself?

Asher: Hi, everybody. My name is Asher. I am one of the Podcast Producers on Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective. I am usually behind the microphone, but this time I am in front of it with Zoe on “A Slice of Life”. It’s such an honor to be here, honestly, on this show. You’ve been working so hard for each and every single episode and it’s great to be able to join you in one of these episodes. I think it’s gonna be really exciting to make all these different dishes that we’re gonna do today.

Zoe: It’s easy to say, “work hard”. But, for me, I just really enjoy it. I love spreading that message, talking about culinary journeys and overcoming adversity. So, we have got for you a dish that is guaranteed to make you go, “Mm, mm!”. Well, it’s actually not just a dish. It’s actually a small collection. I hope you’re excited. Get those taste buds ready! But, before we do that, let’s get to know you a bit better, Asher. Where would you like to start?Ìý

Asher: Oh, where should I start? I guess I could say that I was born and raised in Texas. Dallas, to be precise. I lived there up until I was nine years old with my Mom and Dad and an Older Brother, and I moved overseas to Singapore when I was around nine. I’ve lived there, in Singapore, up until I was around 20 or 21 years old and then I came back here to Oregon. It’s about the long and short end of my story kind of thing. Do you wanna get started with cooking while we talk?Ìý

Zoe: Perfect! Yeah, let’s get it rolling!Ìý

Asher: Awesome! Let’s do this!Ìý

Today’s Menu

Zoe: Asher has brought a wonderful Banana Pudding Tiramisu and I have a Greek Feta Cheese and Tomato Roll-up with fresh Basil. On the side, we actually have a contribution from Kuma which is a wonderful Summer Salad with Feta Cheese; some cranberries and a sweet and sour balsamic vinegar drizzle. So, why don’t we get started? It’s almost like a full meal, you’d think!

Asher: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Zoe: In this meal, the Banana Pudding Tiramisu, actually, did you say it was no bake?Ìý

Asher: Yep, it’s no bake and it has only very simple ingredients: Cream Cheese, Milk, Ladyfinger Biscuits, Caramel, and Bananas. I’m gonna grab my ingredients out. And I will need a bowl from you to get started.Ìý

Zoe: Lovely! Then let’s get all our kitchen gear out. Now, we will have a list of ingredients, of course, for everyone. We will have a list of ingredients in the episode link. Before you make these, it’s always gonna be really nice to have your ingredients ready to go, refrigerated, so that when you’re starting to make it you can just get the tiramisu done, the salad done, and then the feta cheese rolls will hit the grill, come off, and be hot and piping ready to serve.

Making the Banana Pudding Tiramisu

Asher: Alright! So, to start off you’re going to need a mixing bowl. For ingredients you’re gonna need 16 ounces of cream cheese, 5.1 ounces of instant banana pudding, two cups of milk. If you’re gonna be using dairy-free milk, we would recommend a thicker option like “Ripple” or “Oatmilk”. One batch of homemade Ladyfingers Biscuits, four tablespoons of caramel sauce, and one banana, sliced. I prefer to add more bananas to each layer while making the tiramisu. But, that is all up to you. You can add them at the end at the very top, or you can add them in between layers. It just depends on how much “banana” you want in your-Ìý

Zoe: I like to layer it ’cause-

Asher: Let’s do that!

Zoe: It’s a fun texture!

Asher: Yeah, for sure! All right! First off, in our bowl we’re going to add the cream cheese and beat it for a few minutes. So, a good thing about this is that I “cooled this down”. Not cooled down.Ìý

Zoe: “Chilled”, yeah.Ìý

Asher: Not chilled either, like it came cold. So, I had to bring it to room temperature, I guess.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, “thawed”! Yeah, yeah, yeah.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. I had to bring the cream cheese to room temperature first, so it’s easier to work with.

Zoe: Get it nice and soft like butter!

Asher: I think this is a total of 16 ounces, probably.Ìý

Zoe: Fabulous. Do you like your cream cheese thicker or just a little bit thinner and easier to spread?Ìý

Asher: The cream cheese that I got is just a block here.Ìý

Zoe: For me, ’cause like I’ve always argued with folks and whatnot. That’s like a nice soft cream cheese. I like my cream cheese nice and thick.Ìý

Asher: Oh, yeah?Ìý

Zoe: I have some friends who are like, “you’re wild for wanting it like that.”.Ìý

Asher: I don’t have much of a preference. Yeah, no. I mean, cream cheese is cream cheese in my opinion, at least.

Zoe: True. For me, like one of my absolute favorite desserts, if I’m both bad and sad, is to take a bagel, toast it, and then, right out of the toaster, cream cheese on one side, marionberry jam on the other. Bam! Together! Eat it hot with the cream cheese chilled and the jam chilled! Amazing flavor, amazing texture!

Asher: Yum. Okay, I’m gonna need your help. I need a spoon from you.

Zoe: How big are we talking?

Asher: Let’s do a medium-sized spoon.Ìý

Zoe: A spoon or spatula?Ìý

Asher: Spatula’s work actually. I just need to try to get it out of the packaging.Ìý

Zoe: Oh! Gotcha!

Asher: Thank you so much!Ìý

Zoe: 100%.Ìý

Asher: Yeah, so we just plop, or try to scrape, the cream cheese into the bowl.

Zoe: Worse comes to worst, you can always get your hands in there. We have paper towels. Just make sure to wash your hands and sanitize first.Ìý

Asher: Yeah, no, exactly. I’m not gonna try to touch it now, because I just touched Tucker not too long ago when he greeted me at the door.

Zoe: Oh, yeah, absolutely. That’s what the sink is for.Ìý

Asher: So, after you add the cream cheese you’re gonna wanna add the Banana Pudding Mix and a bit of Milk. So, I brought milk from home in a medium-sized water bottle, my own water bottle. Because, I made the mistake when I bought this milk from New Seasons Market.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah?Ìý

Asher: I had no idea there was a difference between “Organic Milk” and “Regular Milk”, and I ended up paying seven-something dollars-

Zoe: Oh, my!

Asher: For a gallon of milk. And I was like, “That’s ridiculous.” When I found out, I was like, “I’m not gonna go back and get another carton. That’s ridiculous.”.Ìý

Zoe: I love organic milk, but when I can go to Costco and get five or six bucks for a ton of milk!Ìý

Asher: Yeah, I only wanted to get like regular milk and that’s like only $2 for a gallon which is amazing.

Zoe: Don’t get me wrong, if I’m in a pinch and I’m also just like, “I want something just like vaguely flavored.”. I’ll be like, “let me bust out the Nesquik real quick.”.Ìý

Asher: Well, the funny thing that you mentioned it is that this recipe actually calls for a bit of banana milk to soak the Biscuit Lady Fingers. Because, the biscuits that I bought are dry. They actually call for like softer form of freshly made lady fingers, but because I got it from the store, they’re pretty much hard. So, in order to counteract that, you wanna soak the lady fingers in some milk kind of thing.Ìý

Zoe: That makes sense.

Asher: Give it some flavor. Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Flavor and moisture, yeah.Ìý

Asher: Flavor and moisture. But, for our case, we’re just going to soak the Lady Fingers in a little bit of milk.Ìý

Zoe: Okay, fabulous.Ìý

Asher: Out of the two cups of milk that I brought. I don’t know if Tucker wants to lick the cream cheese off the wrappers, but…Ìý

Zoe: We can set them to the side and allow him to decide later!

Asher: Because we do not wanna waste this delicious cream cheese.Ìý

Zoe: True. No need to waste it. No matter what, you can always find a use for it.Ìý

Asher: Yes, for sure. Okay. I am actually currently mixing the cream cheese, or beating. It says to beat it for a few minutes, but-Ìý

Zoe: Ew.Ìý

Asher: I’m not gonna beat this thing. I’m gonna grab my Jell-O, my “Instant Banana Cream Jell-O mix”, I guess is what it’s called. It calls for 5.1 ounces. Which this one is exactly 5.1 ounces. I love it when things are packaged perfectly as the recipe directs. That way I don’t have to try to measure things out.

Zoe: True…

Asher: So, I’m just gonna pour the whole thing in here. I’m just opening it up. Okay, I actually might need a cup, because I’m measuring out two cups out of the milk that I brought.

Zoe: Two cups, huh? Yes. I think we have some measuring cups in here.Ìý

Asher: Oh, okay. I can take a look, yeah. I don’t see any measuring cups. I see a stainless steel cup in here. Well, this is just in milliliters. It’s fine. I’ll just use it as a cup. Yeah. It’s fine. I’m not gonna get technical about it.Ìý

Zoe: We don’t need to be too technical. It’s not like it needs to be super, super exact.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. I feel like this is very forgiving too.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. It’s about putting your own flair on it. None of these recipes that like are ever on the podcast or anything are set in stone. It’s about taking what you like and putting your own flair on things. So, with that said, are there any stories you’d like to share with us?Ìý

Asher: I will share, but really quick; It smells very, very “banana-y”.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I always ask. So, it smells “banana-y”. What other notes are hitting your nose?Ìý

Asher: Ooh. Well, it’s not cream cheese per se, but it’s like a very creamy banana type of-Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, so that creaminess, that creamy smell.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. And I’m just trying to break apart the bits of cream cheese. So, it’s not like chunky type of thing right now while I’m mixing it.

Zoe: You want chunks, or you want texture, but you don’t want pockets where it’s just cream cheese.Ìý

Asher: Yeah, I can tell you a little bit of stories at least about my journey coming here to the States.

Zoe: Sure, yeah. And we’ll illustrate while the tiramisu and the other dishes are going too.

Asher’s Story: Singapore to Oregon

Asher: Yes, for sure. Growing up, there was no really big concept about disability. I grew up in Singapore and there were disability related stuff that we talked about; people who are wheelchair-bound, who are blind, or who are deaf. But, it’s never really addressed and there’s not really a lot of advocacy stuff going on. I’m sure it must have changed since then, way back when, when I was in Singapore. But, for during that time, it was just not a part of the culture to talk about people having disabilities. So, it was never really brought up at all until I came here to the States, to Oregon. I started going to college and university and found out just how much disability is advocated in here and how important it is to advocate for those people who have disabilities. I think it was around that time where I found out a little bit about myself having ADHD in the first place. A couple of friends of mine asked me like, “Hey, it almost sounds like you have ADHD. Do you have ADHD?” I’m like, “Uh, no.” And it was one of those things where I don’t fully understand if the life that I’ve been living so far has just been normal or there was some sort of chemical stuff going on in my brain that just made things a lot more difficult. ‘Cause I’ve always struggled in school and I thought it was always just the, “oh, I just need to study harder. I just need to do more work. I need to put in more effort.”. But, it never really seemed to make a difference, no matter how much effort I put in. Then I got diagnosed with a high level of ADHD and I’ve just been trying to figure things out since then. I think it was also around that same time where I joined the Podcast Collective, discovered, started learning more about disability-related topics, and how to advocate for people with disabilities. So, this season has been a bunch of learning.Ìý

Learning About ADHD

Zoe: Absolutely fantastic. For me, it’s an opportunity not just to spread a message, but also to connect with people. One of my dearest friends, Ryan, actually taught, has taught me so much about ADHD, about misconceptions and whatnot. From there we’ve talked- you’ve probably seen the, this entire shelf of movies and books. That’s all his.

Asher: Oh, wow!Ìý

Zoe: So, he’s really, really knowledgeable and has taught me so much about stuff like how, for instance, OCD; the form that was like popularized by the TV show, “Monk”, that is for most people not it at all. He was talking to me and I was like, “I’m gonna be totally honest. The only form of figuring out ADHD is what I’ve seen in like movies, and whatnot.”. Ryan was like, “No, that’s wrong.”, and he showed me a video, this was the first video that he showed me, and he was like, “This is what it’s like to have ADHD.”. It’s a man that is getting dressed, getting his keys, getting ready to go to work, and there are eight different versions of his voice. They’re all just going, “Did I turn the stove off? Did I get my keys?”.Ìý

Asher: Oh, so it’s like a “mental voice” type of thing?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah! There are seven or eight of them going at once while he’s trying to do everything.Ìý

Asher: Oh, yeah. That is the same way for me too. I’m sure there’s a term for it. I’ve not really ever discovered the term for it just yet, or I just don’t remember it. Another ADHD thing, that I forget about a lot of things basically!

Zoe: Is it “Stimming”?Ìý

Asher: It’s not “Stimming”. It’s like I’m doing one task, and then I think of something else, and then I grab an object, and then I go do something else. Then it’s like, so on and so forth, kind of thing. So, I have all these incomplete tasks throughout my home as I’m working kind of thing. I’m like, “Oh, how did I get here?”. I was making lunch in the kitchen and all of a sudden I’m in the garden doing something else!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I’ll totally feel that or I’ll talk to Ryan about it. It’s that feeling when you’re just like just doing something or just like knitting and all of a sudden you’re stuffing dryer sheets into your shoes. Because, that is also another way to freshen them up, but I’m like, “How did I get here again?”.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. Okay. I’m trying to make this as smooth as possible, this texture of the cream cheese, milk, and banana pudding mix. It’s right now looking like egg salad with mayonnaise kind of chunkiness.Ìý

Zoe: Would you like a fork or like a whisk to-Ìý

Asher: I think a whisk will actually work very well.Ìý

Zoe: Let me get you a whisk.Ìý

Asher: Thank you. I was struggling a little bit while I was talking, but I was just like, “I’ll just take my time here. We got time.”Ìý

Zoe: Yes, we do!Ìý

Asher: I found the whisk.

Zoe: Oh, yes. I was looking to see if we had a bigger metal one, but that will work fine.Ìý

Asher: This one will work fine? °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I think.Ìý

Asher: Okay. I will try it out.Ìý

Zoe: But, let me know if it doesn’t.!

Asher: Oh, no, no, no! It’s good!Ìý

Zoe: I usually use that one for like really, really thin mashed potatoes, then I’m like, “Okay, I need to beat this up, but I do need to add like more potato.” So, yeah. Now we’re aerating it, getting those flavors all combining together wonderfully. The ingredients, that you mentioned, sound pretty economical from what you described. These sound like ingredients that you can have on hand or you can get from the store, no problem. Easy peasy.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. I don’t know about the banana pudding mix. I’m not sure how common that is. But, cream cheese and milk, yeah, for sure. It is pretty easy to grab. You can even make your own caramel sauce. If you start with a simple syrup of one part water, one part sugar, you continue cooking it on a stove top on a pan until it browns up, then you add a little bit of butter into it. You could turn it into a caramel sauce.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, I guess you’re cooking it past like a sugar syrup until it browns and then add a little bit of like butter. Easy caramel sauce recipe! Bonus for you viewers out there!Ìý

Asher: Yeah. So even if you don’t have caramel sauce; you don’t buy it like I did from the store, you can make it your own.

Zoe: True. But hey, listen; I think every household should have a bottle of caramel sauce. Because, vanilla ice cream without caramel sauce is not the same experience.Ìý

Asher: Oh, I’m more of a chocolate sauce type of gal.Ìý

Zoe: See, specifically, I like chocolate sauce on strawberry ice cream.Ìý

Asher: Oh.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Asher: That’s different.

Zoe: Although, I’m odd. I like my caramel sauce on vanilla, ’cause I grew up only ever eat this one brand called like Breyers. The favorite which we’d eat all the time growing up was this Dulce De Leche.Ìý

Asher: I tried making it by myself at one point too, just like a homemade style ’cause I couldn’t find any in store.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, yeah! So, for me, it’s chocolate syrup on strawberry ice cream and strawberry syrup, specifically- Can you guess? This is interesting. Can you guess what it’s on?Ìý

Asher: No, what is it on?Ìý

Zoe: Pistachio ice cream!Ìý

Asher: Ooh! Actually, that sounds really good!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, that’s my favorite. Oh. It’s like hits the spot for me.

Asher: Super good! Yeah. Okay. Right now I am opening up the Ladyfinger Biscuits. Have you ever had Ladyfinger Biscuits before?Ìý

Zoe: Ladyfinger biscuits are fabulous. Yes, I know what they are. But, for our viewers, what are they? Could you describe them?Ìý

Asher: Yeah. So, they are long form biscuits, basically, and they’re used mostly in tiramisu or in layered type of pudding cakes or no bake cakes type of thing. They come in plastic wrapping and they’re just little slots of biscuits. You do not wanna bite into one of these, right off the bat.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, no way! Yeah.Ìý

Asher: They do not taste good on their own like this.

Zoe: Yeah, please don’t!

Asher: You need to either soak them in coffee, like you would make in tiramisu, or, in our case, we’re gonna soak it in a little bit of milk before we place it into our pie dish, which I’m gonna have you grab, Zoe-Ìý

Zoe: okay…Ìý

Asher: while I prepare to soak the ladyfinger biscuits.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Would a glass baking dish work?

Asher: A glass baking dish is perfect because we’re gonna do little layers and stuff.Ìý

Zoe: Okay. Yeah.Ìý

Asher: And, I guess it depends on how big your dish is. If you’re gonna use this dish; it is a… I can’t measure… It’s a dish!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, it’s a dish. I’d say it’s like two quarts? A quart and a half? Two quarts?Ìý

Asher: Two quarts, yeah. I would say you just need a sleeve and a half of the ladyfingers, or even less than that.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I have bigger ones if needed, too.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. ‘Cause these ladyfingers are pretty big, I feel like we’re only gonna be able to do like two layers on this thing.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. You know what? Let me get a bigger plate. Let me get a bigger pan then.Ìý

Asher: Yeah, I think it needs a shallower. We need a shallower Pan.

Zoe: A little nice shallow pan.Ìý

Asher: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Zoe: I’ve got the drill. How’s this?Ìý

Asher: Oh. Oh, that’s perfect. It’s big!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. There we go.Ìý

Asher: This is really long one, then we’re gonna probably just use… I don’t even think we have enough ladyfinger biscuits for something this big, but it’s okay. We’ll figure it out!Ìý

Zoe: We’ll figure it out, yeah.Ìý

Asher: So, how I usually do it, and if you don’t wanna use as many, like, pots, pans, you don’t wanna clean a lot of dirty dishes, I guess, is that I just layer the ladyfingers into your pie dish, or whatever dish you’re gonna use, and pour just a little bit of milk on it just to soak it through kind of thing.

Zoe: That makes sense, yeah.Ìý

Asher: So, you’re not transferring it from one plate to another. I’m gonna go ahead and start. I don’t think we have enough.Ìý

Zoe: Which is totally fine. We can crumble them or just layer them loosely.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. These ladyfingers, they’re- here, if you wanna touch one.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, sure.Ìý

Asher: It’s basically like a log kind of deal.Ìý

Zoe: Yep, yep.Ìý

Asher: And it’s hard to break apart and make it nice in the pie dish itself.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, yeah. We can just layer them like logs, too. And they’re, like, nice and light, but for that reason they don’t particularly by themselves have a whole lot of flavor.Ìý

Asher: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Zoe: You’re really using them for texture and to soak up some of the flavor in this dish.Ìý

Asher: Oh, yeah, for sure. I’m gonna pour a little bit of milk on top of each of them.

Zoe: Fabulous.Ìý

Asher: Milk left over from my Organic Milk mishap. So, I am very sparingly using this gallon- of milk because it cost me $7 to buy it! yeah, I’m very carefully just using what I have left for this banana pudding, yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, fabulous milk. But, yes.Ìý

Layering & Chilling the Tiramisu

Asher: So, I have the first layer down, and you’re just gonna keep on layering it. So, you’re gonna wanna line the dish with your ladyfingers, and then pour half the cream mixture on top. I’ve tried to make this texture as smooth as I can. My arm is hurting now…

Zoe: I’m sorry.Ìý

Asher: No, it’s good. It’s fine. I’m just weak in general! This is my first time making this recipe, honestly. I’ve seen a video of someone making it and I’ve had it in my recipe list for a long time of wanting to make.

Zoe: That just means that now everyone gets to see us do it for the first time!Ìý

Asher: This is the first time for me too! So, if you’re gonna make it, I would say try to make your cream cheese even more room temperature. ‘Cause I think I just took mine out of the fridge not too long ago. Just an hour ago. So, I feel like maybe you might want to have your cream cheese out a little bit longer. But, make sure don’t have it out too long. Have it out at a recommended time where it’s not gonna spoil. Food safety first and all that.Ìý

Zoe: 100%!

Asher: Okay, I’m gonna mix this a little bit up more, and then I’m just gonna call it done. We’re not eating with our eyes here. We’re gonna eat with our mouths.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, absolutely, yes.

Asher: And if we get a mouthful of cream cheese, all the better!Ìý

Zoe: If we get a mouthful, then it just happens!Ìý

Asher: It just happens, yeah. But, I mixed it to the best of my ability. So, there’s no chunks of banana pudding powder or just a bit of milk here and there. It’s pretty mixed through. It just has a little bit of chunks here and there of the cream cheese kind of deal.

Zoe: Again, it’s all about texture for me, oddly enough. I like my mashed potatoes not too smooth, but just a little chunky, with small little potato chunks in there. ‘Cause it gives a wonderful texture. If I do it smooth, it’s usually ’cause I’m adding in mixed vegetables and little smokies. It just tastes divine. I know it’s kinda odd, but it tastes divine.Ìý

Asher: Whatever you like. So, I am not gonna question it!

Zoe: I mean, it’s the little smokies with the cheddar cheese. So, the flavor really seeps into the mashed potatoes.Ìý

Asher: So, we’re putting in half of the mixture in there. I don’t know what I did. What did I do wrong? How do I turn this thing off?Ìý

Zoe: Oh, the hot water?Ìý

Asher: I don’t know. I turned the lever.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, I know. Yeah. This sink is-

Asher: Oh, okay. Thank you .Ìý

Zoe: No problem.Ìý

Asher: I was like, “What did I do wrong?”.Ìý

Zoe: You just gotta press hard.Ìý

Asher: Press harder. Okay. Good to know.Ìý

Zoe: This kitchen is not perfect.Ìý

Asher: Oh, No kitchen is perfect, I feel like.

Zoe: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. It’s great to have you here to walk me through just your own kitchen kind of thing.Ìý

Zoe: My own kitchen. And yeah, I know these recipes will be provided by me. But, if possible, I’ll direct and if you could be my eyes and hands, and I’ll step in when needed for the record.

Asher: Oh, yeah. So, I’m layering the cream cheese mixture on top of these ladyfingers, and I’m hoping that we have enough.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Asher: This is a pretty big pie dish, I’m just realizing.Ìý

Zoe: No worries. I love layers. And you know what else has got layers? It’s big, green, and similar to an onion… A “cabbage”!Ìý

Asher: Oh, “cabbage”!Ìý

Zoe: No, it’s “Shrek”!Ìý

Asher: I was gonna say! It’s like- “Cakes! Cakes have layers!”Ìý

Zoe: Cakes have layers! Everybody love cakes!Ìý

Asher: Everybody love cakes! It looks like we’re actually using the entire sleeve of ladyfingers. Yes. I placed it alternating for each layer, so hopefully it’s more than enough.Ìý

Zoe: It’s like a big old lasagna but, no bake, and you can chill it and get it going. When you’re ready to serve those ladyfingers, I bet, will be much more like moist, have texture to them and people will be fawning over it.

Asher: I just used the perfect amount of milk in there. That’s the last of it kind of thing. I feel like you would, for those of you who are cooking this recipe at home, you wanna actually like completely soak your ladyfingers, that way they’re nice and soft. But, for our sake, because I came over here not wanting to carry a whole gallon of milk with me; I just used what I had, and I feel like it’s gonna be good.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, absolutely!Ìý

Asher: We’ll see! We will see…

Zoe: You know what? Do you think if you soak the ladyfingers like beforehand?…Ìý

Asher: I think that would’ve been a good idea, but I don’t know how it would’ve turned out. Because, you don’t want it too soggy.Ìý

Zoe: I’m thinking about other flavors that folks would be interested in. Do you think like maybe a little bit of banana and maybe a little bit of like cinnamon would go well in that milk that you soak it with?Ìý

Asher: I don’t know. That’s a good question. If you’re brave enough to experiment, like Zoe is, go for it. I’m not very much of an adventurous type of like experimenter when it comes to food. Especially, if I’m gonna be the one eating it.Ìý

Zoe: That’s fair. I used to do this thing where if I was like oddly hungry, I’d just take two cans of soup, or something, and I’d just be like, “You know what? I’m not even gonna try and read what they are together. I’ll just combine them, give it a quick stir, and then put it in a pot and just heat it up.”. You’d come up with some amazing like combinations, ’cause I’d check afterwards. I’d be like, “What did I just eat?” ‘Cause. I would always eat it first and then check after. You would get good ones, like a vegetable medley, or a vegetable soup, combined with a beef soup.

Asher: Yeah. I completely forgot to add bananas in the layers, in between, so I’m gonna add it now. We’ll have an even bite for each bite. I guess as far as, in terms of softness of banana, if you want it a little bit softer for your recipe, that’s totally fine. Yeah. Like maybe if you’re gonna make a banana loaf, or something; around that softness. Or if you don’t want it too soft and you actually want a bit of bite, that’s totally fine too.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, I like that.Ìý

Asher: Like using bananas that are still a little bit not as ripe and it’s a bit firmer side.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I’ve used like bananas going a little bit brown and I’ll be like, “I wanna actually use these, but I don’t wanna eat them right now.”. It’s a little bit spotty, right? Little spotty. Not like brown, brown.Ìý

Asher: Yeah, not brown, brown.Ìý

Zoe: And what I’ll do is I’ll freeze them and then use them later for banana bread or other things like that. So, when you freeze them, the bananas will turn brown. That’s not a bad thing. That’s just how bananas are. They’ll still be fine. Don’t look at the brown banana in the freezer and be like, “Ugh, what’s this?”. No, those bananas are totally fine. That’s just what happens.

Asher: This is taking a little bit more time than I thought it would.Ìý

Zoe: There’s plenty of time to go around, so take your time.Ìý

Asher: Just preparing the ingredients and everything. Going back to just the whole story, I’m so used to, since I’ve come here to the States, just cooking for myself. I make very fast and easy meals. Like maybe something I just throw in the rice cooker. I’m not just standing there and doing a lot of prep work. I prefer quick meals or a meal that I could throw in an air fryer or rice cooker, and then I can go about my business until lunch is ready.

Zoe: Yeah, the rice cooker’s so nice. You put your raw vegetables and maybe a little bit of flavoring in there. Then you can set it down. Once they’re done, the vegetables will be cooked and ready to go. If you’re using frozen, or frozen mixed vegetables, you can microwave them or steam them and add them in at the very end. Allow them to warm up with the rice. They’re good to go.Ìý

Asher: Oh, yeah. No, exactly. It’s my favorite thing. So, my current favorite meal so far is that I get these chicken drumsticks, and I marinate them. And then I throw them into the air fryer, and while that’s cooking, I make some rice and some hard-boiled eggs with it.

Zoe: That’s amazing. One of my favorites, which I’m gonna teach to Kuma, is steamed basmati rice, in the rice cooker with the rice, add your steamed vegetables, raw vegetables; some bean, maybe some green beans, some carrots, and whatnot. Maybe some broccoli. And, for the flavoring, if you’ve ever been to Fubon; I will slice diagonally these Chinese Sausages.Ìý

Asher: Ooh! I love Chinese Sausages!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, they’re so good! Give them a diagonal slice. It doesn’t have to be too thin, and I’ll just layer that into the rice. As it boils and cooks the sausages retain their flavor but also flavor the rice wonderfully.Ìý

Asher: That sounds really tasty!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. No need for any extra salt or pepper or anything. It’s just rice, vegetables, sausage. You’ve got a great meal right there.Ìý

Asher: Oh, yeah! For sure! All right! Final layer I’m gonna put on here. Then we’re gonna layer the top with banana. We’re also gonna finish it off with caramel and fresh bananas at the top.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, so like a caramel banana top.

Asher: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Zoe: It seems like it has so many wonderful flavors, the caramel for that richness, banana-y, of course, the milk, the dairy. Of course, you can always substitute the caramel or other things for like monk fruit sugar, or for, in case of the dairy, you can always substitute with lactose-free milk. Cream cheese, there’d be a substitute somewhere out there. I’m sure there are lactose-free cream cheese. Or something like that.

Asher: I don’t think there’s enough cream cheese for the top!Ìý

Zoe: We’ll do our best, and that’s the best anyone can ask for!Ìý

Asher: It’s gonna look a little bit strange, but It’s okay. We’re gonna be fine! I’m trying to figure out what other stories I can tell you. Yeah, what do you wanna know, Zoe?Ìý

Life on a Different Timeline

Zoe: Well, let’s see here. So, you’ve already told me a little bit about coming back to the States. A little bit about your journey. Though, can you tell me a little bit about what it was like knowing that you had ADHD and the adjustments that you made to try to deal with it as best you could?Ìý

Asher: Yeah. So, I didn’t know about having ADHD until I came here to the States, like I told you. I think by the time I found out that I had ADHD, everything started to make sense from just not doing well in school and just struggling, in general, with a lot of different subjects, like relationships, and all sorts of stuff too. I think when I found out that I had ADHD, it changed the view of how I saw myself in a timeline of life. For example, you start a business when you’re this age, and then you get married when you’re this age, and then you work until you’re retired at this age, and you hopefully get a family by then kind of thing. It changed that view for me, because I’ve never been on that timeline so far. I’m 27 right now. I’m single, and I’ve just started my career in podcasting and multimedia stuff. You would think by this time, “Oh, you’re engaged,” or, “Oh, you’re soon to be married,” or, “Oh, you’re already established in your career”, kind of thing. But, no. I took at least six years in college and university and I was struggling in school during that entire time; when, normally, you would only take about four years in school or in higher education, per se. So, that definitely changed just my worldview of, “Okay, I’m not on the typical timeline for myself. I go at a slower pace.”. Since then, it’s been a lot of firsts for me of learning how to navigate this world of ADHD and I’ve found a lot of cute little quirks of mine and I’ve also found that some things that I don’t like about myself. For example, I get very frustrated or a little bit startled whenever I’m in the zone– I’m working on something– and someone comes along and taps me on the shoulder. I jump and I get very frustrated because, “I’m in the zone. I was working and I had this idea, and everything, and now it’s gone!”. That and among other things of “I can’t work in a very messy environment. I have to clean up stuff first.”. I’m also notoriously terrible at cleaning up my own space! So, there’s a lot of things I’m still learning. For listeners, once again, I’ve only found out that I have ADHD about two years ago, so this is all pretty fresh and new, for me, and still just taking each day a day at a time, learning more and more about myself, and it’s been great, honestly. I love learning about people with disabilities. I love learning in general. I feel like that’s a trait that I’ve had throughout my life. You’re never too old to learn something new. You’re always a learner at heart every single day. You’re gonna learn a lot of things throughout your life.

Zoe: “True master admits that they’ve never truly mastered their craft.”.Ìý

Asher: Exactly. Yeah. Even after you master your craft, there’s like more to learn.

Zoe: Yeah. I can sympathize. For me, I wasn’t ever on that same schedule either. I started higher education in the summer of my fifth grade.Ìý

Asher: Oh, wow!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I obtained my honors GED and actually was admitted to honors college in eighth grade. But, right now I’m also just a few classes away from a bachelor’s and I have a great master’s program lined up when I go back. I’m discovering who I am as well. I’m twenty-six, but I started doing this podcast and working around like March, I think. So, I’ve been wanting to do editing, really jump into it, and it’s been like a process of what works for folks with disabilities? How will I do this? This is a wonderful way to start everything off and to connect with people, talk about wonderful, fresh experiences, and move past some of the, sometimes, unpleasantness of the past.Ìý

Asher: Oh, yeah. For sure. Well, I have finished the dish and we’re gonna pop it into the fridge if there’s room in your fridge.

Zoe: Let’s see if there’s room. If not you can like make some space.Ìý

Asher: All right. Let’s pause real quick on the recording.

Kuma’s Summer Salad

Zoe: All right. We’re back and we have just taken our banana pudding tiramisu, covered it with aluminum foil, and set it in the fridge just to chill while we get our next dishes ready.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. What are we gonna do next, Zoe?Ìý

Zoe: So, this is a dish that was provided to us by Kuma. Currently, we actually don’t have all the ingredients per se, but we are going to do our best with what we have.

Asher: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: So, this is a Summer Salad and we have a base usually of Spinach or Arugula. Right now we’re using like just some Mustard Greens, and we are going to dress it and add in sliced peaches, raspberries, the sliced almonds, and some of that wonderful crumbled feta cheese. We are going to dress it with a very simple mixture of a little bit of olive oil, some balsamic vinegar, and just like a hint of lemon juice and salt and pepper.Ìý

Asher: Okay! Sounds good! What do we start with first?Ìý

Zoe: Could you slice those peaches for me?Ìý

Asher: Yeah, of course! How would you like them sliced?Ìý

Zoe: Any way you like it!Ìý

Asher: Okay!Ìý

Zoe: Any way you want it! That’s the way it’s gonna be in the salad!Ìý

Asher: Okay. I’ll slice it in slices. So, I found your cutting board here, and I’ll need a knife. Let’s see. I’m gonna look for one.Ìý

Zoe: One of the ones on the right. ‘Cause the ones on the left are Kuma’s.Ìý

Asher: Right. Okay. I’ll just use this one. Small enough fruit knife.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Nice and small.

Asher: Do I just throw it into the bowl here or?…Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. You can just throw it into the bowl once it’s been sliced.

Asher: Okay. Yeah, I can get to that. Let me wash it first. These “peaches” are a little bit on the harder side. Not “peaches”… “Nectarines”!Ìý

Zoe: No, that’s totally fine. As long as this exposed to the air just a little bit. By the time you get home, they’ll be nice and soft. Plus sometimes you can take the topping and instead of using greens, you can do it over steamed rice. The steam will help make the, will help steam those nectarine peaches very slightly, right over steaming hot rice. It’s really good too! If the knife’s too small, you can always grab a bigger one.Ìý

Asher: That’s not the problem. It’s more of, because there’s a seed in there it’s a lot harder…Ìý

Zoe: It’s a lot harder, yeah… I do actually have an interesting question for you.Ìý

Asher: Okay. Yeah. Go for it.Ìý

Zoe: So, now that you’ve come back to US and we’ve talked a little bit about your experiences coming back, learning about ADHD, becoming a part of the podcast collective, learning about “the schedule” in life. You’ve talked a little bit about this already; how has cooking, the ease of cooking and learning recipes that work for yourself, how has that helped shape your life, influence your life? Sometimes, it might feel like, too difficult. But, how has that really helped throughout your life.

Cooking, Baking & Gift Giving

Asher: Yeah. So, cooking in general, I’ve not done it a lot through my life. I have learned how to cook from my parents themselves. But, I feel like my cooking habits changed when I started living by myself and along with having ADHD and not having the attention span to stand and cook for a long period of time, unless I have some sort of music on, or I’m listening to something, or I’m talking to somebody, or something like that. Like we’re doing now kind of thing. That’s been a difficult part of my life. I would say cooking isn’t necessarily a big hobby of mine. Baking definitely has been. Cooking, in general, has just not been big. I’ve not been big upon it.Ìý

Zoe: What sorts of things do you like to bake?Ìý

Asher: So, since I was young, me and my brother, we used to make Tiramisus, actually.

Zoe: Ooh, okay!Ìý

Asher: So, during the holidays and stuff, we would make these little jars of Tiramisu and actually give them to our neighbors as a sign of goodwill and ministry. So, it was nice. I really enjoyed doing that. Now as an adult, I love making brownies, cookies, puddings. I’ve dipped a bit more into Asian type of desserts. Recently, I actually made egg tarts by using the ingredients I have here in the States. It didn’t turn out the best. Because, I didn’t have a lot of knowledge and know-how on how to bake these egg tarts in the first place. But, I learned, and I feel like that was the big thing about it. Once again, always learning, always constantly taking things in as you do stuff.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. That’s an interesting thing. Are you familiar with the history of egg tarts?Ìý

Asher: I’m not, actually. Will you just school me on it?Ìý

Zoe: Me neither, actually! I’ve always been wondering. ‘Cause, they always seem so Chinese. But, then I looked it up and I didn’t have the heart to look anymore, ’cause it said that they were invented in the UK!Ìý

Asher: Oh! I didn’t know that! Huh! So, they’re originally from the UK?Ìý

Zoe: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Asher: Wow. Kudos to any UK listeners out there! But, what was your question again? I’m sorry. Um-Ìý

Zoe: Oh, no sweat!

Asher: Going different channels here while I’m cutting these Nectarines and not trying to cut myself!

Zoe: How has cooking been like an outlet in your life whether it’s relief, something that you can do to just do with your hands and decompress, or has it been something bigger in your life that has really influenced it?

Asher: I would say it’s definitely helped with my “gift giving”. We talk about “love languages”, kind of thing. “Gift Giving” is not necessarily my own Love Language. I love doing “Quality Time” with people, and “Physical Touch” is my other love language. But, I realize that other people have the Love Language of “Gifting”. Which, whenever you’re in a relationship, you always want to reciprocate with the other person’s love language. So, because I’m very terrible at picking gifts for people, I tend to bake and cook for people instead as my act of giving, if that makes sense.Ìý

Zoe: It does. ‘Cause, that’s exactly… I think you and Kuma need to meet each other. You two would make fast friends! That’s exactly Kuma’s mindset!Ìý

Asher: Yeah. I’m very terrible at Finding gifts for people. It’s always a nightmare during Christmas or holiday season.Ìý

Zoe: That’s fair! I usually either ask the person directly, “What do you want for your birthday or Christmas?”.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. “What do you want for your birthday?”.

Zoe: ‘Cause I don’t know otherwise. I’m shopping for a birthday, I go to the employee and I’m like, “I’m shopping for a birthday for a friend, and they’re this kind of person, and they like this. Do you have any ideas that spring to mind?”.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. It’s either that, or I just get someone a Card.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, a Gift Card.Ìý

Asher: And I don’t like that. I’m very intentional when gift giving and it takes me forever to find a gift. I don’t find joy in that kind of thing.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, that’s the same for me.Ìý

Asher: It takes me forever to find a gift, and then by the time I find it, it’s been two years since I was supposed to get the gift!

Zoe: For me it’s gotten to the point where I’ve just given up. If I ask you and you’re like, “Oh! You can just get me whatever.”. Last person that said that to me got a Plunger Hat for Christmas!Ìý

Asher: That’s funny!

Zoe: Yeah, and I was like, “You said get you whatever, and this is what I got you! So, if you’re not gonna tell me, this is what you’re gonna get.”. You’re gonna get Fart Spray Perfume in a bottle! You’re gonna get Plunger Hats! You’re gonna get Glitter Bombs! These are the things you’re gonna get unless you tell me what you want!

Asher: If you ever do get a gift for me; I actually prefer stationery, or “useful gifts”– is what I call them. Something that I would use in everyday life; whether it’s a pencil, or a nice pen, or tabletop stuff. A Fidgeter, or something. I always use Fidgeters. I use fidgeters all the time.Ìý

Zoe: Me too, I love Fidgeters!Ìý

Asher: I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve worn through at least three Fidgeters and I’ve started to play with my own Headphone Wire. Which is not safe, by the way!Ìý

Zoe: Oh, yeah!

Asher: Don’t do it!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, don’t do that. I have a fidget that’s my favorite, but I can’t really fidget with it in public.Ìý

Asher: Oh?

Zoe: It is a Butterfly Spoon. But, people get scared ’cause they think it’s a knife!Ìý

Asher: Oh!

Zoe: ‘Cause I will pull it out and do the tricks and flick it around. But, people think it’s a knife even though it’s got a flat head with the-Ìý

Asher: They get scared, yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, even though it’s got like the spoon head. It can’t be too deep of a spoon. Because of how the knife works. It’s a really funny thing for me to fidget and play around with. But, people are like, “What is that?”, when they see it in public. So, I’m like, “I’ll pass.”. Ooh, were those just the peaches?Ìý

Asher: Yeah! I’m just eating the core. I’m done cutting. I’m sorry! I’m very hungry! This is what I do too. Being completely real with my listeners. Whenever I cook or take a long time to cook stuff; I graze when I’m cooking.Ìý

Zoe: Me too!Ìý

Asher: Which completely destroys the fact that I’m actually making food. I’m going to eat it, but it ruins my appetite for food afterwards.Ìý

Zoe: Slightly. For me, I get paranoid. ‘Cause, if I have a little bit of this, I gotta even it out across the other ingredients.Ìý

Asher: Oh! All right, what do I cut next?

Zoe: So, we got the peaches. What other ingredients do we have on this plate?Ìý

Asher: We got our peaches in our bowl. We got Basils, we have raspberries, and we have tomatoes, we have the Almond slices, we got the sauces, and the Pita Bread.

Zoe: What kind of tomatoes are they?Ìý

Asher: They are Roma Tomatoes. So, I bought these because Roma Tomatoes are a lot easier to slice, and they’re not as juicy, so they’re perfect for wraps, and stuff.

Zoe: Yeah! Are the Roma tomatoes for the wrap or the salad? I can’t remember right now.Ìý

Asher: I don’t know. It’s one of them.

Zoe: Yeah. It’s for the flatbread, but you know what? Do you like tomatoes in your salad?Ìý

Asher: I love tomatoes.Ìý

Zoe: Let’s wing it! Let’s add some tomatoes in here!

Asher: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, we’re winging it. We’ll have an official recipe. But, right now we’re winging it and we’re just having fun with this salad. All right. So, all that we need sliced now, could you give me the tomato, like the Roma tomatoes in, not, too thick but just thick enough, slices. And, for the salad? You can just slice it whatever you want.Ìý

Asher: Okay, yeah. Sure! I’m just gonna go wash my hands real quick.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, the medium slices are for the feta rolls. The other slices are for the salad.

Asher: All right. So, the basil leaves, did you say you want it ripped apart?Ìý

Zoe: Just shredded and torn apart. Yeah, you can just shred it with your hand and add it in there.Ìý

Asher: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: It’s just to add a little bit of that wonderful fragrance.

Asher: How much basil are we talking, like a handful?Ìý

Zoe: Just a handful. Yeah.Ìý

Asher: A handful? Okay. We’ll do a handful of basil then. Ooh, this is very strong basil!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, it’s for that wonderful fragrance!Ìý

Asher: I don’t think I’ve ever had basil before, honestly. It’s like one of those things, like cilantro, that I don’t really have because the taste is too strong for me.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, really? Yeah, we don’t have to do that whole handful then. Just a bit of basil.

Asher: Okay. And then let me cut the tomatoes.Ìý

Zoe: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Asher: Cut it into slices.Ìý

Zoe: Again, two slices per flatbread. I don’t know how many wraps we wanna make, but at the very least two wraps.

Asher: And do we want this separate from the salad bowl or what?Ìý

Zoe: You can add the slices for the salad just right into the salad bowl. Okay. The other slices for them, you can set to the side. I’ll grill those later.Ìý

Asher: Okay, cool. I’ll cut one Roma Tomato for the salad. So, I’ll cut these a little bit smaller just so it’s proportionate with our other ingredients.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, a big juicy tomato.Ìý

Asher: It’s not too big. It’s medium-sized for those of you who don’t know; Roma Tomatoes, how different they are from regular tomatoes. The regular tomatoes are bigger, I would say. Roma tomato is their “baby cousin”.

Zoe: True. It’s nowhere near a beefsteak tomato.Ìý

Asher: It’s not a “beefsteak” size. Yeah, no.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Beefsteaks are huge!Ìý

Asher: They are huge! I don’t think a regular tomato is the size of a beefsteak. You could probably make two big regular tomatoes as a beefsteak probably. Okay. All right. That is one for the salad, and then we’ll do slices for the-Ìý

Zoe: Wrap…Ìý

Asher: Wrap!

Zoe: So, we are using like a big bottle of olive oil today. This is a extra virgin olive oil that I have I’ve just taken a big bottle and I’ve put into it some stalks of fresh thyme, i’ve grated the zest of one big lemon in there, and I’ve added in like a clove of crushed garlic and a few whole peppercorns. Over the top of all that, I’ve poured some olive oil and just let it all infuse together. This is wonderfully flavored oil and you can use it for so many things, so I got a big bottle of it. But, it’s infused for about a week. And then I ended up, putting it through a strainer, just filtering out the peppercorn, all the zest and whatnot. ‘Cause we’re gonna be grilling. We don’t want some of this stuff to burn or anything like that. Now I’ve got a clean bottle of olive oil that we’ll be using for our recipes today.Ìý

Asher: Okay, cool. I got all the ingredients at least cut.

Zoe: Right now we can go ahead and add the almonds and these lovely dried cranberries, almost like these Craisins that we have.Ìý

Asher: Into the salad?Ìý

Zoe: Right into the salad, yeah.Ìý

Asher: Okay. Let’s do this. How many almonds do you want? Do we want a handful?Ìý

Zoe: For people that like almonds, you can add a good amount. I know for folks that don’t like almonds too much, just like a little bit, honestly. So, just a little bit.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. There we go. I think I added at least half the can, but-Ìý

Zoe: Now we add the cranberries.Ìý

Asher: Okay, awesome. Dried cranberries open this without help. Nope.Ìý

Zoe: Need a knife?Ìý

Asher: Maybe need scissors if you have it. Oh! Actually, no, I got it. Never mind!Ìý

Zoe: Yay!Ìý

Asher: Okay. I’m gonna mix this salad all up!Ìý

Dressing the Salad

Zoe: Yes. We will add our greens and we will give the salad a good mix and toss. Now, to dress the salad, of course; you have the olive oil there. So, we are going to get it, put in, about a tablespoon and a half to two tablespoons of olive. Give it, just give it a good drizzle. Then a bit of balsamic vinegar just for that sourness.

Asher: Okay!Ìý

Zoe: The recipe does call for a little bit of lemon juice, actually.Ìý

Asher: Ooh, do we have lemons?Ìý

Zoe: We don’t have lemons right now, but-Ìý

Asher: We have lemon juice?Ìý

Zoe: Yes, we do!Ìý

Asher: Oh, I remember it from the last episode!Ìý

Zoe: Yes. All right. Here, go ahead and give that just a quick shake in there.Ìý

Asher: All right. I did a small circle of balsamic vinegar.Ìý

Zoe: I can take the vinegar for you. °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Asher: Oh, yeah. Here’s the vinegar.Ìý

Zoe: Thank you.Ìý

Asher: There you go. Sorry, how much lemon juice again?Ìý

Zoe: Just a shake.Ìý

Asher: Just a shake.Ìý

Zoe: ‘Cause we already have the balsamic vinegar in there. It’s mostly just for that acidity and just like bringing things together-Ìý

Asher: Just a splash of lemon juice. Too much. Come on, come out. Oh, okay. That was a bit too much. It’s fine!

Zoe: It’s okay! Yeah! So-Ìý

Asher: It’s gonna be extra sour, guys! It’s fine!Ìý

Zoe: We have the craisins in there. We got the saltiness and the wateriness from the tomato coming through. Then, of course, that sourness is going to be offset by our lovely-Ìý

Asher: Feta Cheese!

Zoe: Feta Cheese! This is it, right?Ìý

Asher: Yep, that’s the one!Ìý

Zoe: Now, however much you wanna use, is up to you. Go ahead and give that a sprinkle of however much you like.Ìý

Asher: Yeah. I bought “Athenos” brand Feta Crumbles that apparently have olive oil in them too. But, you can use whatever kind of feta cheese you want.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Normally this recipe would have some grilled chicken in there. Right now we’re just giving a lighter option for folks. If you like, you can always put in some grilled chicken or use whatever greens. We will have a standardized recipe down below. But, for now; I know there’s not too much smell, but if you give it a whiff after that feta, how does it smell?Ìý

Asher: Oh! Well, I can just smell the Feta right now. I can definitely smell the greens, and it’s just a very earthy smell. I’m not sure if I’m getting the notes of the Vinegar or the Olive Oil that you used.Ìý

Zoe: Because it’s cold, you won’t get as much. But, it’ll come out much more in that taste!Ìý

Asher: Yeah. Or, maybe it’s the Balsamic Vinegar, but it looks really, really tasty. I might add more feta cheese on my own.Ìý

Zoe: We love feta cheese! Just leave enough for some wraps! I have plenty and I, personally, like snack on just straight Swiss Cheese.

Asher: It’s good. It’s all mixed up now. We got it!Ìý

Zoe: Fabulous! We can just set that to the side while we go ahead and prepare for our next part of the dish, next part of the meal!Ìý

Asher: Yay! The wraps!

Greek Feta Cheese Rolls

Zoe: Our Greek Feta Cheese Roll. In a pan, on the stove, over medium-low to medium heat; I’ve got some olive oil just warming up, that wonderfully infused olive oil. On our cutting board we are going to assemble our first Feta Roll. So, go ahead, Asher, if you could take a pita. We have this wonderful flatbread, like this pita bread. Go ahead and take one out.Ìý

Asher: I will take one out now. What are we gonna do once we get the pita bread out?Ìý

Zoe: We are gonna take that pita bread and we’re gonna fold this over. So, place these ingredients on the left or right side if you can. We’re gonna put one slice of tomato first.Ìý

Asher: One slice of tomato first. Got it.

Zoe: On top of that we’re gonna put down some feta cheese crumbles, which are just gonna melt and bring the whole thing together wonderfully.

Asher: Okay. Let me grab the feta cheese. All right, feta cheese in.Ìý

Zoe: Perfect. Now, on top of that, another tomato slice.Ìý

Asher: Oh, wow, okay.Ìý

Zoe: Yes. This is a wonderful and simple, but these are just easy ingredients that you can get at home.Ìý

Asher: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: On top of that tomato slice, just a little bit of fresh basil.

Asher: Fresh basil.Ìý

Zoe: Just a little bit, yeah, just a little bit. Just shred it up a little bit.Ìý

Asher: I put the basil away. Let me grab it.Ìý

Zoe: No worries. We pretty much got it assembled. On top of that, just a single shake of salt, just a little bit. A good sprinkling of freshly cracked black pepper.Ìý

Asher: Ooh, black pepper. All right, that’s it.Ìý

Zoe: All right, we’re gonna fold that over. If you have a cocktail stick, you can pin it. We’re just gonna do our best with what we have right now. We’re going to go ahead and take that. How’s our pan? Is it heated up?Ìý

Asher: It’s nice and hot!Ìý

Zoe: Go ahead and take it and lay that flatbread onto your grill.Ìý

Asher: Okay, cool! Always safety first, guys. Don’t put your electronics near the stove.Ìý

Zoe: That is correct! That slight sizzle that you get there.Ìý

Asher: I’m using one hand to hold the pita bread down and to make sure it’s nice and flat. So, it’s not-Ìý

Zoe: I can grab a chopstick that you can stick it with if you want.Ìý

Asher: Actually, I think a spatula would be a good idea.Ìý

Zoe: A spatula.

Asher: Would you say a panini press would work even good for this one too?Ìý

Zoe: A panini press would work really well as well. Right now, we’re just using the pan, ’cause that’s what we’ve got.Ìý

Asher: That’s what we’ve got. So, use what you got.

Zoe: Just go ahead and cook that there for about two or three minutes. After that, we’ll flip it over and cook it on the other side. Give it just a brush of olive oil. Oh. And yeah, everything will be ready to taste.Ìý

Asher: Ooh, I’m so excited!

Zoe: Once we finish this roll, we’ll taste everything, and then we’ll sign off. But, while it’s all cooking down, any words of wisdom for our viewers? Or, any advice that you wanna give them from your journey through life?Ìý

Words of Wisdom

Asher: Words of wisdom, for sure. I would say don’t be afraid to admit that you want to learn, or don’t be afraid to ask questions. I would say, “there’s no stupid questions, just people who don’t wanna ask questions.”Ìý

Zoe: Don’t be afraid to ask.Ìý

Asher: Don’t be afraid to ask. It just proves that you’re learning.Ìý

Zoe: It proves that you’re curious and inquisitive. It proves that you’re curious-Ìý

Asher: It proves that you’re curious and inquisitive, and you wanna learn, and that’s amazing in my book. I wanna learn. I love to learn. So, thank you so much, listeners, for coming along on this journey with us– as a collective– of learning and discovering from many different people in many different walks of life; as we discover more about disability and accessibility for people around the globe.

Zoe: Absolutely. Yeah, it truly is a wonderful journey and it’s been so great to hear stories from people and how they’ve adapted. Like for you, learning eventually that you had ADHD and then how to deal with that. Finding where you are in life and being proud of yourself because this schedule that we follow; at the end of the day- oh, that’s a great sizzle!Ìý

Asher: That’s a great sizzle!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah! That means that’s toasting!Ìý

Asher: Yes!Ìý

Zoe: At the end of the day, it’s about who you want to be and what makes you happy. Now what you can do is you can turn the heat off.Ìý

Asher: Okay. Off the heat.Ìý

Zoe: You can do this in a regular pan, but right now we have a nice grill pan. The residual heat is gonna do the rest of the cooking. You can take that off the heat and onto another burner. While that’s cooling down, why don’t you go ahead– I’ll get you a small plate– and taste the tiramisu, some of the salad, and the roll, and please let us know what you think.

The Taste Test

Asher: I’m so excited!Ìý

Zoe: Here is a plate.Ìý

Asher: Thank you! Okay. Let me grab a little bit of that salad first.Ìý

Zoe: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Asher: I’ll leave the banana tiramisu for last. A little bit of everything here.

Zoe: Then you can scoop the Feta Cheese Roll onto your plate. It’ll cool down in the time that you’re ready to get your tiramisu.

Asher: For sure. That is an amazing looking dish right there I really wish you listeners could see this.

Zoe: What does it look like for our viewers at home?Ìý

Asher: It looks very colorful on the plate. So, the salad, it has pops of green and orange and red with a little bit of white from the feta cheese and the balsamic vinegar, a little bit brown in there. The cranberries, almonds are all in there. Then the wrap on it is perfectly grilled on that plate. It looks like a classic amazing Mediterranean Dish right here on this plate, and I am so excited to dig into this!Ìý

Zoe: You’ve got your Banana Pudding Tiramisu as well?Ìý

Asher: I will get into it later.Ìý

Zoe: No worries. But, how does the wrap smell as it comes drifting up?Ìý

Asher: It’s just smells like the Olive Oil and fried bread, honestly. I think I’m getting a few notes of the Tomato and the Feta Cheese and the basil leaf mingling together.

Zoe: ‘Cause we’re not trying to really cook down, we’re warming everything together and bringing those flavors together.Ìý

Asher: I’m gonna go ahead and try to have a bite here. Let me try the salad first.

Zoe: What is of the salad?

Asher: That’s so good!Ìý

Zoe: It’s divine, yes!Ìý

Asher: I did not expect ” apricot” to be so good in a salad, honestly.Ìý

Zoe: The “peaches”?Ìý

Asher: The “nectarine”- The “peaches”, or the “nectarines”. Sorry!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. It provides-Ìý

Asher: It’s “nectarines”, folks. It’s not “peaches”!Ìý

Zoe: Texture, a balanced sweetness to offset that sour and that juiciness too. You get some from the tomato, but the juiciness from the nectarine, to die for.Ìý

Asher: I’m just trying to get a piece of everything. It’s really hard on this fork!

Zoe: No worries!Ìý

Asher: I think the Balsamic and the Infused Oil really bring everything together.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. That oil, again, it’s just extra virgin olive oil with a wonderful infusion of flavors, and you can just strain it out and keep it in a big bottle.

Asher: Mm. Let me try the roll now.Ìý

Zoe: Yes, this wrap.

Asher: Hang on, I got a big bite of the roll rather than the inside part-Ìý

Zoe: Ah, the inside part.Ìý

Asher: No, it’s okay. Let me take another bite. That way I can get the actual inside of it. I got the tomato. I got the basil and the feta cheese.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. That bit of salt and pepper to just bring it all out too.Ìý

Asher: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: Perfection!Ìý

Asher: I do feel like– and maybe some listeners would agree with me– that, if you want, you can add a little bit of yogurt in there at the end.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah! That’s totally-Ìý

Asher: Or some like sauce.Ìý

Zoe: Sour Cream, yeah!Ìý

Asher: Sour Cream, or if you wanna add a little bit more of that infused Olive Oil into there.Ìý

Zoe: You can give it a drizzle of that olive oil.

Asher: Try it, yeah!

Zoe: Just a small drizzle. A little bit. Okay, not that soaking. It adds that wonderful nutty flavor with a bit of spice. Oh, to die for!Ìý

Asher: Yes. Let me try it out now.

Zoe: I hate to say that I’m thinking of one thing in particular; ’cause Kuma would roast me forever if I recommended it. I do have a sauce that you might enjoy on there.Ìý

Asher: What is it? I’m curious what you would recommend.Ìý

Zoe: This is the “Squeezy Gochujang Sauce”.Ìý

Asher: Oh… I mean, I’ll try it! Why not? I’ve had Gochujang Sauce before.Ìý

Zoe: Well, this is not the cooking gochujang. This is kinda like just the squeezy gochujang.Ìý

Asher: Yeah, I’ve had this before, honestly. While I was camping out in Australia with a couple of friends. We had a Korean friend who always carried a Gochujang Bottle with her around. And she would put it with everything! It actually tastes best with Fried Rice.

Zoe: This is a nice subtle flavor that the Gochujang will just really help accentuate. We’re innovating!Ìý

Asher: I’m salivating!Ìý

Zoe: Gochujang on this wonderful feta, tomato, basil roll

Asher: let’s try it!Ìý

Zoe: Sorry, Kuma! If you’re hearing this right now, I’m so sorry!Ìý

Asher: We’ll see if it’s actually good. I’m gonna try it out. I don’t think it will be bad. I mean-Ìý

Zoe: I think it’ll add just that wonderful bit of spice to flavor.

Asher: It’s spilling out the sides. Hang on.Ìý

Zoe: It’s a good saucy wrap. What do you think?Ìý

Asher: It’s actually okay.Ìý

Zoe: Ha.Ìý

Asher: It’s a little bit spicy. It’s a bit too spicy for me!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. We always less than of the Gochujang. You need some water?Ìý

Asher: Um… Ah! Ah!Ìý

Zoe: Are you good?! You have your Sprite?!Ìý

Asher: I got my Sprite! That was good though. Don’t put so much. I put a huge glob in there… I don’t know why I did that!Ìý

Zoe: You know what’ll cool you down?Ìý

Asher: “Milk”.Ìý

Zoe: “Banana Pudding Tiramisu”. Yeah. That’s got milk in there! Yeah, go ahead! ‘Cause, I don’t know we have any milk at home right now!Ìý

Asher: I’m gonna take another bite of this, because this is actually really good.

Zoe: Oh, the salad, right?Ìý

Asher: No, the wrap.

Zoe: You’re gonna go back in for another bite?!Ìý

Asher: I like it!

Zoe: You wild for that one!Ìý

Asher: I’ll probably eat it if I’m very very hungry, which is right now.Ìý

Zoe: It’s supposed to go well with the salad and with the Tiramisu. So, it’s a nice basic wrap. You can add in other seasonings that you want. You know what one of the things that one of my friends likes to do, whenever I make these, she actually likes to give it a drizzle of the pineapple juice while it’s grilling.Ìý

Asher: Yums. Okay. Let me clear out some space on the counter here, and I can take out the Banana Tiramisu. All right. It looks good, actually. I’m not gonna put it on that plate ’cause that’s full of gochujang.

Zoe: No worries, no worries.

Asher: That’s tasty!Ìý

Zoe: What are the flavors like?Ìý

Asher: So, definitely wanna like actually soak the lady fingers in milk.Ìý

Zoe: And they’ll still soak more, yeah.

Asher: Yeah. It was a little bit on the crunchier side, but the cream cheese, banana, caramel; it was perfect. It definitely offset that gochujang.Ìý

Final Thoughts & Goodbyes

Zoe: That gochujang, yeah. Yeah. So, there you have it, folks. We got the Wrap as your base, like plenty of flavor bursting through, and you can always add sauce. We got our lovely flavored Salad. Then, if you’re like me and a dessert eating first kind of person, you got the Banana Pudding Tiramisu to wash it all down. All you need now afterwards is just a good glass of Cranberry Juice.

Asher: Or a Sprite, or a Coca-Cola.Ìý

Zoe: True. You’ve got a Tropical Feast to die for.Ìý

Asher: It’s perfect for the summer! Definitely make it for your friends, if you have a summer gathering.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, absolutely. Asher, thank you so much for sharing with me and for helping me with all these recipes, going through the steps on how to make them. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your perspective, and your journey through life.

Asher: Well, thank you so much, Zoe. I appreciate you and appreciate all the stuff that you do for our collective, too. Making all these wonderful recipes. Every single time I see an episode, I’m just like salivating! I wanna eat this right now! Definitely just continue learning, keep learning out there, stay safe, stay cool this summer, and I will see you on the other side of the microphone!

Zoe: Sounds good! See ya! See you later, everybody!

Asher: Take care everybody. Thank you.

Outro & Credits

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel,Ìý, and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Miri Newman

Episode Intro Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, onÌý, and .

Interview

Asher: Hello, everybody! Welcome back to another episode on the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective. My name is Asher, and I’m here with a very special guest today! Could you introduce yourself, say your name, your pronouns, a little bit about yourself?

Caleb: Oh, Asher, it’s such a pleasure to be here! My name’s Caleb Dardick, pronouns he/him. And, I think just I’m really pleased to have this opportunity to speak with you today about my book and about growing up in the disability rights community and independent living community. But, I do wanna be clear that I am non-disabled. I’m the child of disabled parents. My father had childhood polio, so he’s paraplegic from that. He’s actually passed away in 2011. My mother is still alive, and I grew up with her having an undiagnosed bipolar condition throughout my entire childhood. So, it wasn’t until she got diagnosed in her late 40s, and I would’ve been in my late 20s, that we knew that. So, that was something that was part of our life, but we didn’t have words for this– I would say– invisible or hidden disability. I have that personal experience. I’ve also worked very closely with disability rights organizations over 15 years in Berkeley, California. But, I’m not speaking for disabled people. I can only speak to what I witnessed, what my family taught me, and how my own understanding has sort of evolved over time.

Asher: Yeah, of course. I feel like experiences are the biggest thing when it comes to being knowledgeable and knowing a little bit more, at least about disabilities, in general, too. What’s the journey that led you to writing ““? It’s such a great book and I’ve had the chance to read it. But, I wanna hear a little bit about what led you to write this memoir.

Caleb: Yeah, I’m thrilled. I’m thrilled that you enjoyed it, and it’s coming out September 21st of this year. It’s been a book in the making– I would say– my whole life. But, I always thought it would be my parents’ book. Maybe just give you a little chronology here. I was born in St. Louis, Missouri in 1965, and the basic story of “The Adventures of Superfreak” is that my parents dropped out of mainstream suburban life in St. Louis and took their three kids on this open-ended VW van bus tour leaving Europe and going overland to India. A trip that could be done in maybe 10 days, direct route is about 4,000 miles, we spent almost three years on the road, about 20,000 miles in the van, spent a year in India, and that’s sort of the journey that’s covered in this book. That route from Europe to India, there were very few families, but there were tens of thousands of young people who made that trip and over time it became known as The Hippie Trail. The Hippie Trail, that particular route, really effectively closed in the late ’70s with the Iranian Revolution and just the sort of wars and instability that have plagued that region ever since, even to this current day. But, at that time, 1970 to ’73, when we were on the road, it was very exciting, very dynamic, very much a western caravan. People were seeking; the joke that my parents used to say is that it was a search for “hashish” or “nirvana”, whatever came first. I think there really was that sense of both pilgrimage, spiritual pilgrimage, inspired by The Beatles and Allen Ginsberg, but also just the adventure of it, and we were certainly part of it. I think people reacted when they heard our story, especially when we returned, and said, “You gotta write a book” to my parents. In part, because they were responding to my father being disabled, that he did all of this using a wheelchair, and my parents had three little kids. I was the oldest at five, my little sister was 18 months, in diapers. So, the idea of a family with little kids, a father who’s a paraplegic, really captured people’s imagination. My parents did try to write the book, but it was a little too heavy for them. It was a little too close, and they didn’t pursue it. Somewhere about 18, 20 years ago, I started writing stories of my own just for fun, just as a creative outlet. I had these memories that were really strong for me from just my own memories. I would write them down, and they would be like these two to three-page stream of memories, stream of consciousness vignettes. I called them “jazzy”. But, I just kept doing it, and then my wife and I joined with another couple to do memoir writing together, and I would share these stories. The three women in our group would say, “Oh, that’s such a fun story, but how did it make you feel?”. Then I’m being pushed to sort of like find that emotional connection to the story, which I ultimately did, and at some point it was like, “Okay, if I’m gonna do this, let’s turn it into a book.” And, that’s been fine, but I’ve also been fully employed and trying to find weekends to do this project. So, professionally, I’ve worked for the University of California and the City of Berkeley, so I’ve been involved in local politics and government. I’ve been community relations consultant. I worked for 15 years as the project manager for the, which was, is, is a one-stop service center for people with disabilities in Berkeley, California. That’s named in honor of Ed, who on a personal level is a family friend, so that was, you know, made it even more special. He was a family friend. And we could talk more about the Ed Roberts Campus. That definitely shaped my perspective. I went to UC Santa Cruz in the ’80s. What else should I tell you about my background leading up to this? It’s been a great journey. It’s was — it’s a fun adventure to tell. It’s a hard story to tell because of some of the challenges. My parents were actually married for almost 50 years, but this period is actually the four hardest years of their marriage. So that was kind of challenging for me to feel comfortable talking about their marriage and sharing their story. But they knew I was doing this and encouraged me, gave me their journals and letters. And my mom is actually reading the book right now and loving it, so I feel okay. But it is, it is a lot. It’s been a great project, and I’m just so proud that it’s done and that other people like yourself are finally getting a chance to read it.

Asher: Yeah, no, it’s such a unique memoir. Reading through it, it also felt like a dream in and of itself, too. It didn’t feel like it happened, but then at the end, it’s sort of like seeing the pictures and like, oh, that actually happened, kind of thing. Yeah. Uh, what inspired you? I wanna know. Was there a moment where like, “Oh, I should make this into a book” kind of thing? And you talked a little bit briefly about it, sharing these different stories as an outlet to your group of friends. But when did you actually like be like, “Oh, yeah, I should turn this into a book” kind of thing?

Caleb: I think, you know, just technically when I had, like, 20 stories, and all of a sudden it was like they were all independently written, but it was like, this is enough content to start having a book. And the other women in my group were writing memoirs and, and so we started talking about, well, what would it be like as a book? And then it was like, well, what is it? That question, how does it make you feel, also leads to the question is, well, what is it really about? Because plenty of adults, you know, who were adults then in the ’70s, have written memoirs about the hippie trail. In fact, most famously, Rick Steves, the travel guy, was really famous for travel books, has written his own memoir when he was 23. But as far as I can tell, there are no memoirs from the hippie trail from the kid’s perspective. What’s it like to be the kid in the backseat? And to really look at, you know, what’s it like to grow up in the counterculture, not to choose it, right? My parents dropped out from one way of life and chose an open-ended, new way of life. But as the kid, you’re along for the ride. And the counterculture, I mean, it’s gonna be 60 years next year anniversary of the Summer of Love. There’s gonna be some nostalgia for the ’60s, but I don’t want it to be a nostalgic book. I want it to be, what was it like? What is the counterculture like as a sort of lived family reality, right? And as for me, with all that wonder, but also the instability, with all that longing and danger, but also the excitement and the fun. So contradiction, right, is sort of inherent in talking about this story. And then the other piece which, because disability in my family was ordinary, it was matter of fact, my father was disabled. People would ask me, “When did your father get disabled?” Thinking that it happened in the course of parenting me, but he was disabled at age 13. So I only knew him, you know, as a person with a disability and used a wheelchair and leg braces and crutches. It took me a while to sort of go, “This is actually a disability story.” And then trying to explain my mother’s behavior in the book. Sometimes there’s some pretty heavy things that she does. And I know as an adult now that she’s bipolar. But how do I tell that story in the book? How do I really talk about growing up with disabled parents with a visible disability that everyone thinks they understand and can see, and then the invisible one for which there’s behavior, dramatic mood swings and behavior that seems inexplicable? Why would, why would someone’s mother do that? And with a diagnosis, of course, in hindsight, one can understand it and, and feel empathy. At the time, there’s just a sense of confusion. And then there’s also, in some ways, this book is a prequel. My parents end up in the early ’80s becoming really committed disability rights activists, and eventually they co-found an ILC, which is an independent living center in Northern California, which still is in operation 40 years later. And so growing up in the disability community is something that this sort of hints at or it, or at the very least leads to, and will be the subject of my, my sequel memoir, which I’m excited about.

Asher: Ooh, a little sneak peek. I’m excited about that. I look forward to maybe getting it and reading it one day,

Caleb: I w- I’m happy to share it with you

Asher: Aw, thank you. Um, yeah, looking back, was there a particular moment when you realized your childhood experience have shaped the person you’ve become? And while you had revisited deeply personal memories as you wrote the memoir, what was the process like for you, and did anything surprise you as reflected on your childhood?

Caleb: I think one of the surprises for me is that Ironic. I think givenÌý non-disabled peoples’ sometimes view of, disability, I think some of them would be surprised to know that my siblings and I viewed my father as the rock of our family. And so I really came to put my father, as a child, on a pedestal as sort of that there was nothing he couldn’t do. And I think that in the writing of the book and really dealing with the disability and reading his journals, which he shared with me, I came to see that he was young and searching too. That there were times that he felt humiliated as a disabled person if he, you know, had to accept a piggyback ride or if he, you know, was in this really cool place but he couldn’t get around and he felt trapped, like feeling bad about feeling trapped. And that it, that he had to sort of deal with that on the road and realize, no, that isn’t how he had never accepted piggyback rides before. He didn’t put himself in situations where he was stuck. And so he had to kind of summon up that reserve to like remind himself of who he was and get himself out of those positions and say, “No, I’m, this is still a hard enough adventure. I’m not gonna make it even harder and put myself in a position where I need a piggyback ride. I’m going to have more self-control or self-possession there.” So the idea that he was learning, that he was struggling, that he felt pain, and then sharing that and trying to articulate that, that was definitely a powerful moment for me in writing the book. I think the other big thing that really stuck out for me reading his journals and knowing our story was this search for community, right? They, my parents, had rejected a lifestyle that they knew, and that was a very comfortable middle-class life. My father was a professor. He had his own business. And, you know, my mom was, uh, raised to be a homemaker and wanted to have a dozen kids and live a nice life, you know, as Americans viewed it. But then they gave it up. But then what we found is that just living on the road, we did better with other people. There was this looking for community. It maybe wasn’t fully articulated at first, but one of the first people we met on the road in Spain was a Roma family, a Romani family. And they showed us like how to travel. And, and so there was this reciprocity between the two families that was really beautiful. And then when we moved to the Canary Islands, and spent the winter there of 1970-71, we fell in with a big group of hippies who were escaping the cold of Europe to be on the beach and make leather goods that they would then sell. And that seemed like fun because we were all together and it was a nonstop party. But ultimately, the young people who were on the road, the young hippies are under 30, they don’t have kids, they’re partying all the time, and that’s not necessarily a great fit for a family. So that wasn’t the community fit that we needed. When we moved to India and my father taught architecture, in Ahmedabad, India, he made really good friends with an, a colleague who taught in the art school, who invited us to live with him in his extended family compound, where there were 25 family members, 25 artisans who were there during the day, and it was, you know, “We have room for you, Sam,” is what, you know, the, the Professor Piraji Sagara who’s actually a very famous artist in India, said. And that was fantastic living there, but you know, it was also, it’s not our home. You know, it was– that wasn’t a place we were gonna stay in- indefinitely. We ended up going to an ashram after that, and then, uh, we were in the ashram for a while, and then an ashram life was very appealing because it was really healthy. It had a lot of discipline. It was this sort of spiritual practice that was very grounding for our family. But also ashram life, too, has its limitations. But one of the cool things that happened at that ashram is we met two men that became close friends, who said, you know, “If you’re ever in California,” and whenever you’re traveling, right, you always make friends, and they go, “If you’re ever in wherever, come see me.” Um, we actually did, and they were living at this spiritual retreat in Northern California called Ananda Village, which still exists And it sounded perfect. People were farming, building their own homes, creating their own spiritual education, and just having this sort of wonderful agrarian spiritual practice. And so we visited in late ’73 when we came back from India, and were quite enamored with it. We didn’t join the community, but we bought 50 acres adjacent. It was raw land, and so that became sort of part of this back to the land movement, which was happening in the, in the ’70s and ’80s. And my parents, who had never gardened anything and had, you know, never had an animal more than a domestic dog, all of a sudden had 50 raw acres, a four-acre pond, we’re raising animals, we’re putting in orchards and gardens. My dad’s doing it all from a wheelchair, and, uh, my mom’s freelance writing, and she’s writing stories about Sam the sit-down farmer. And we’re having this new adventure surrounded by hundreds of families who are doing the exact same thing, and that’s where I think we really landed, not in the auspices of someone else’s home or someone else’s ashram, but on our own land, but surrounded by community doing the same thing. And then I think the next level is when we became involved in the disability rights movement, finding a community there as well, first through disability sports. My father was a tennis player and wheelchair basketball player, and he would, you know, basically recruit anyone he saw in a wheelchair to play sports with him and created a league. And that was very good for the family, and especially my mother, because We were meeting all these disabled athletes who had girlfriends and wives and kids, and my mom didn’t feel as alone. And us kids also would meet other kids who had disabled dads, and so it became, um, another level of community for us. That was really special

Asher: Yeah, that is very special. I think it’s so important that no matter what, even if you don’t have a disability or if you have a disability, to find that right community, to surround yourself with like-minded people. I feel like that’s super, super important. And yeah, and your memoir definitely touches on that in several different facets of the journey kind of thing, and I love that. While your memoir explores your own life, it also invites readers to think about how people experience the world differently, I feel like. Um, has writing the book changed the way you think about disability, accessibility, or inclusion at all?

Caleb: You know, I think writing the book, like I said, at first I didn’t know what to say about it because it was just so obvious. It’s like describing air, you know? How do you write about breathing? But it, you know, the discipline of writing, I, I really have come to find that writing is a craft. In writing about my childhood, what had been ordinary to me I realized was not. Disability was not a side issue. It actually shaped how we traveled, how we solved problems, how we depended upon one another. My mom really liked the term interdependence, and I think there’s a lot to that. I like that, I like that idea as well. I don’t know if it’s still used as much, but it feels very inclusive to me, at least in the family unit. Writing this book, I had to really think about how to talk about physical disability and the bipolar disorder as distinct experiences that affected the family differently. And the difference, I think, especially with the hidden disability and also it being undiagnosed, is that with my mom, I had to navigate these extreme mood swings, and I write about this, right? Where I’m her biggest fan. She’s so exciting. She’s just larger than life and so engaged, and then she’s pushing us away and in bed, right? Depressed. And I would turn to my father, ’cause I sometimes would just feel so… It was so abrupt sometimes, the transition, for me as a kid, I didn’t know what to do. It hurt me. I mean, I, my feelings were hurt, right? And my dad would just say, “Oh, that’s just how she is,” you know, “That’s just your mom.” And I would find that really dissatisfying. So having the diagnosis in retrospect in the writing process, it played, hindsight allowed me to in some ways have more empathy, but also to get in touch with, well, how did I feel as a little kid? It sucked at times, and I totally idolized her because she was this colossus. When she was on, she was completely unafraid. She’d talk to anybody. She would just plunge into things, and that was exciting to be around. Of course, having her stuck in bed for days and not, you know, “Leave me alone,” wasn’t, wa- was the flip side of that, right? I think the other thing that I started having was really div- diving deep into my memories and feelings about my dad. Again, I sort of thought of him, if you asked me, as someone who could do anything. But even at six years old, I was starting to go off on adventures with other people to places that he wasn’t going to, and I came to understand, like, he wasn’t gonna go there. It wasn’t accessible to him. I didn’t have that vocabulary, but I had this pang, this longing, to share it with him. So I would describe it to him, and even into my, like, teens and 20s, whenever I traveled or went to some cool place in some rugged river canyon, I would think, “How could we get Dad there?” Like, “Can we bring him down in a boat? Can we … ” You know. And what I came to realize is that he was having his own life. He was having his own adventures, and he was happy for me to have mine. That was my trip, not his. But I definitely had that sense as a kid, like, “Oh, I wish Dad was here, too.”

Asher: Yeah. No, that’s really cool. How do you now define accessibility? Um, and you talked about it a little bit. What does accessibility mean to you, um, with your dad, for example? Of like trying to take him to these different places, or trying to show him about like, “Oh yeah, this is the Grand Canyon that I went to with all these rugged rocks that is not accessible at all,” kind of thing. But yeah, what does … How do you define it at this point in life after experiencing all these things?

Caleb: I think it’s, it’s such a rich question. You know, Asher, I think we could, we could talk all, all day about it, and certainly from my perspective as a non-disabled person, you know, is limited. I mean, there’s attitudes, and then there’s really … Maybe we should just focus for a minute on, like, the physical dimension, like the built environment, ’cause that’s something that is poignant for me in some ways, and then also professionally with the Ed Roberts Campus really got exposed to thinking about the built env vironment. So in a word or in two words, everything needs to be universally designed. Like, everything new, we need to be innovative, we need to be creative, we need to be taking in what are all the disabilities, using sound, using texture, to allow people to navigate freely, especially in public buildings, right? And we’re so far past barrier awareness. I mean, unfortunately, education is just we must always do, but at some point it’s like, okay, education with a purpose. Education needs to lead to barrier removal, right? Barrier awareness leads to barrier removal. That’s fine for existing architecture. How do we deal with everything that’s new? So let me talk a little bit about Ed Roberts, I think your listeners probably know who he was. You know, he was really a pioneer in the independent living movement. He was the first severely disabled student at UC Berkeley, and he’s credited with helping found the first independent living centers in Berkeley, and later the World Institute on Disability. He was a MacArthur genius. He was a California state director of rehab. Very cool guy. Traveled in an iron lung. My parents met him in a really funny way. I think I mentioned my mother was a freelance writer, and we have a mutual friend who met Ed at a conference and told my mom and dad, “You need to meet him.” My mom was like, “Oh, it sounds like a great story,” and reached out to him, and my dad accompanied her to these interviews with him, and she did a story for him about him in the early ’80s. But as they got to know each other and became friends, you know, one of the first things my dad said to him was, “Well, we don’t have an independent living center in Northern California. You should come start one up there.” And he was like, “Oh yeah, you need one, but you’re gonna do it.” So that sort of inspiration, right, activism, like, “No, you’re gonna do it.” But he also was very straight up with my father. My father was very athletic, and, some of what my father did, in Ed’s view, and later my father shared this view, was counterproductive to the movement. So for example, if my father came across an obstacle in a sidewalk, he would just jump the curb and wheel in traffic. Or if there was no curb cut, he would just pop a wheelie and bounce off the curb, right? So he just, he was mainstreamed, right? This idea of mainstreaming when my father had polio in the ’40s was, you know, you put on leg braces. You figure it out. Uh, you know, you try to walk whenever you can. And that’s wasn’t and isn’t the philosophy today. It wasn’t the philosophy even in the ’70s. The philosophy was, no, we need to improve society for everybody. And so Ed would make the case to my dad that every time you do that, you’re sending a signal to elected officials and decision-makers that, well, it’s not such a big deal. Look, he can just jump it, right? But the movement means you have to have a shared vision. Everyone has to hold that vision and move forward together. And so, you know, that was a little hard for me as a kid ’cause I was just used to, “Let’s go,” and he would do it. And then all of a sudden there was like, “Oh, no, we don’t do that.” So there was a learning curve for me too as a kid of, of someone who hadn’t been an activist and now was an activist, and now there were sort of, you know, we, took a stand on, on various things. So I had to learn how to do that. When Ed passed away, I was working in Berkeley and working for the Berkeley Mayor’s office, and I was asked to help convene a group to honor his legacy. And the or- initial conversations were like, let’s do a, a statue, street renaming, a plaque in a curb. And at that point, a lot of nonprofits that serve people with disabilities were facing rent increases. And this idea became let’s create a one-stop service station where all these disabled service providers could co-locate, and it could become like a hub for services, and it needs to be at a transit stop so that people can use public transit to get there. And that became the Ed Roberts Campus, and I ended up working for that project for 15 years. And we went through two ar- the first architect completely didn’t get it, didn’t listen. We had to fire that firm. And the second firm that we hired, actually my father was on the selection committee, I recruited him to help, and we picked this wonderful firm, Leddy Maytum and Stacy. And I remember talking to Bill Leddy, and he asked me what did accessibility mean to me vis-a-vis the Ed Roberts Campus. And I told him this story that every time my dad and I went to a public building, almost always there was this moment, especially public buildings, often have these grand staircases, entryways, big marble stairs or whatever. And schools and libraries all have this, right? These sort of grand entrance is completely inaccessible and they, you know, tagged on, tacked on rather, is some sort of switchback ramp that goes back and forth, usually on the side or the back of the building. And so for me growing up, I always had to face this moment with a father in a wheelchair where I could walk up to the top of the stairs and wait for him, and he could go up and down, or I could feel like the dutiful son and take this long walk with him up this ramp and do it together. And I just said to Bill Leddy, I just said, “Look, remove that. I want an entryway where a father and his, a dis- able-bodied kid and their disabled dad can just roll proudly in and not have to think about it, not have to make this uncomfortable choice where you’re confronted with your difference unnecessarily.” So that was a very powerful, for me, culmination of the activist education that we got from Ed, and then being able to apply it in the real world. And if you ever get a chance to come to Berkeley, you’ll see that it’s a grand welcoming plaza and all the doors open at street level.

Asher: That’s so cool. I love hearing just so many different definitions from people, and especially coming from you, where you have a background in, like, back in the day when disability wasn’t, like, really, what’s the word? Like you were saying, like, they just had to do what they could do kind of thing. Whether it’s pop a wheelie or, like, get a crutch and, like, sort of stand up and do it kind of thing. It’s so interesting to just hear how it was back then versus now, where everything should be universally designed, as you said. And it, I find it so fascinating, and I love it. I love hearing what accessibility is defined for different people and how that just changes the way they sort of view the world. I’m also curious, what do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about disability?

Caleb: Yeah. I mean, I could speak to what I’ve observed over the years, you know, my father being athletic. On one hand, he was sort of viewed as he’s overcoming disability, and how heroic. And now we even have a term for that, those types of stories, as sort of inspiration porn, right? Like, that’s not his whole story. That’s your projection onto what he’s doing to be able to cope with a barrier that may not need to be there. I think, you know, a lot of people still feel like, and I think this is understandable, that it’s a tragedy. And certainly in some cases, the inciting event, right, getting polio or falling off a roof or having in a car crash, it is, it is, it can be tragic, the circumstances. And there’s certainly a process that’s not always easy for people to come to, ultimately, an acceptance of being now a person with a disability and having it change their lives. And then there are people, of course, who are born with a disability, right? Either young or born. There are any number of disabilities. So this idea that it’s tragic is a misconception. This idea that anytime you do anything that sort of exceeds non-disabled people’s expectations is heroic is also a misconception In my book, what I wanted to sort of play with was both the ordinariness of disability from the perspective of a child who’s born into it, and then also the sort of societal projections that I’ve experienced too. So there’s a scene you might remember from the book in the very first chapter. I never narrate and say, “Oh, my father was paralyzed from the waist down due to childhood polio.” Like, I never write that sentence. Instead, I wake up before my parents do, I sneak out of the van, I see that the back door is lifted where they are sleeping on the bed, and I see my father’s pink, soft feet and these bony, polio atrophied legs poking out. And then, you know, I don’t wanna wake anybody, so I go around to the side of the van, and my father’s E&J wheelchair is parked there, and I sit in his chair, bored and waiting for them to wake up. So just simply by describing his feet and putting myself in this wheelchair, I’m trying to tell the reader that for me, that’s just, this is what I observed, right? But man, as I got older and started to understand what people were doing, it was really mind-blowing for me. I remember being in a grocery store, and this happened a couple different times, 10 or 11 years old, and people would ask me. They’d see me shopping with my dad, right, and I’m pushing the cart, and he’s coming along, and he’s put, taking things off the shelves and putting it in, and they’d sort of whisper to me, “Is he your real dad?” Cause they just couldn’t get over the idea that, like, a disabled person could have kids. And I think the subplot to that is they can’t imagine that disabled person could be sexual. And let me tell you, growing up in a VW van for three years, they are sexual! Uh, so I think that is a big piece, too, and, and I know that was an issue for my parents, sometimes hard for my mom. And I could see it, and I describe this in the book, if you remember. When my parents were asked, “How did you meet?” They would make up these crazy stories that they met on a battlefield or they met in a civil rights protest or something like that. And I always took those stories at face value. I knew they were making them up, and I thought they were funny. But I, what I came to do is I, in the sort of exploring for the book was, I think that they were responding to their assumption that the person, that the person who was asking was like, “How is it possible that an attractive woman would be married to a disabled man?” Maybe that’s not true, but that’s what I think was happening, and sometimes I think the more fantastic the story correlated to their distrust of that person’s motivations in asking the question. Maybe I’m wrong, but I write that in the book as a possibility. But my mom definitely got mixed feedback when she married my father of like, “What are you doing? You know, you’re gonna have a horrible life, and you might not have kids,” and, you know, people’s projections of that. And of course, my parents, although this book covers hard years for them early in their marriage, they ended up being married almost 50 years

Asher: Caleb, you bring a very big point. It’s so sad. There are definitely things people say whenever you meet a person with a disability or even when it comes to like being in a relationship with someone with a disability. It’s like, “Oh, you’re gonna have to take care of them for the rest of your life,” or, “Oh, this and that.” No, this person is a capable individual. And no matter if they have a disability or not, I’m not loving this person because of that. I’m loving this person because of their character or because of who they are.

Caleb: So beautiful, Asher, absolutely right.

Asher: It’s so sad. No, I mean, I’ve also heard of these phrases before, and I faced definitely these kind of situations where it’s like that’s not fair. Like don’t, don’t say that.

Caleb: Yeah.

Asher: I usually just will be like, “Don’t say that. Just please don’t say that”

Caleb: From both of us!

Asher: Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely.

Caleb: For sure. No, thank you for sharing that.

Asher: Yeah, no, of course. Thank you, yeah, for sharing your memoir and just your personal experiences on the topic of disability and just disability advocacy and such. I’m interested to know like is there a particular moment in your memoir or an experience that comes to mind when you think of like disability advocacy or perhaps the way disability wasn’t understood or supported?

Caleb: I think I touched on this a little earlier, but let me go into it in some more detail, which is what happened when our family became politicized. You know, my parents are very much political people. They are civil rights activists. My mother was a very early women’s rights feminist, organized assertiveness training workshops for women. But it was interesting to me: they did not see the disability as a civil rights issue until the early ’80s. I think that’s interesting, right? Because the same … you could certainly extrapolate the Af- you know, African American civil rights movement, women’s rights movement, and that is what happened, right? It- those disability rights movement comes out of those movements. But they didn’t, they were just weren’t living in that world, and I think part of the – because of the way my father was also mainstreamed growing up. But boy, for us, once it shifted, once they made that connection, everything in our life changed almost overnight. My mom sort of tells this story that for her, like, you know, the straw that breaks the camel’s back was this moment when they were out celebrating their wedding anniversary and they were in this nice restaurant, and Dad had to use the bathroom. And so he excuses himself, and he goes to the restroom, and he finds that the doorway – And keep in mind, this is their wedding anniversary night, right? They’re dressed nice– the doorway is too narrow, his wheelchair can’t fit through it. And so he drops out of his wheelchair, and he scoots along the floor and lifts himself up onto the toilet and uses the toilet. And my mother, something for her snapped, even though this wasn’t the first time that it happened. This is certainly not the first time she had seen him deal with an inaccessible bathroom before, but this time it was unacceptable. She was done. And she, my mom, is a very political person. She’s a very good researcher, a very good writer, and, it just became the never again moment. She started doing her homework. She found out that there were all kinds of laws in California already on the books, even pre-ADA laws on the book that say you had to provide accessible restrooms, and my parents both joined what was a volunteer thing called the Community Access Network, and they basically got trained to be access cops, and my mom took to it with a vengeance. I mean, they were busting restaurants and businesses left and right. They were testifying at city council meetings where the council was meeting in an inaccessible room. They started testifying at the state capitol. They were going to marches in San Francisco for transportation access, and it was just like all of a sudden we went from, *vroom*, zero to 60 miles an hour, having this thing happen. And at this point I’m 15, 16, 17 years old. And during this period they meet Ed Roberts. That becomes, they’d never even heard of the independent living movement, and then they are just so politicized. And at the same time, and I don’t know all the chicken and egg timing exactly but my father also forms this wheelchair sports association, and starts recruiting people in chairs to play tennis and to play basketball. And from that same group, which, you know, the beauty of disability is that it doesn’t care about religion, it doesn’t care about politics, it doesn’t care about race or class. And so it’s a very diverse group of people who he’s playing sports with, and they become politicized, and some of them become founding members of this board of directors that becomes FREED, which is the first Independent Living Center in Northern California that my parents co-found, and then my father becomes the first executive director, and then he becomes even more of a public advocate for disability rights at the state level through that. So that changed everything for us because now my dad wasn’t bop-bopping into the street to get out of an obstacle, he’s demanding it be removed. We’re not eating at restaurants with inaccessible bathrooms, we’re boycotting them. And he’s not doing things that he used to do because they’re not accessible to everybody. And at first I was, I think I mentioned this earlier, but I was like sort of like a little aggrieved or confused, like, why are we changing? Why is everything changing, you know? But by the time I was in my late teens, I was totally on board. You know, I felt the sense of community. I was meeting, other families. And, um, I remember that by 1990, the governor of California was threatening to completely defund the independent living centers throughout the state. And my father and others organized sit-ins to protest in front of the governor’s office, and I joined him, and I was on the floor amongst all these other people on the floor, and all these empty wheelchairs and crutches around us. And at one point, I’m lifted into the air by two state capital policemen, and they’re like, “Where’s your chair? Where’s your chair? Where’s your chair?” And I’m like, “Actually, I can walk.” And they’re just like completely confused, and they herd all of us down for citing and all the rest. But, you know, at that point, I, I was completely bought in, and really proud to be with my father in a moment like that. Yeah.

Asher: Yeah, no, I love that. That’s such a huge thing. I’ve seen, um, videos, from the late, you can correct me if I’m wrong, ’80s of just, like, the whole disability rights movements of people, like, crawling upstairs without wheelchairs and stuff.

Caleb: It’s so powerful.

Asher: It’s so powerful. And I love that they picked you up without knowing that you walk.

Caleb: My feet are dangling off the ground, but. It was really, it was very interesting. It was, um… There was an interesting thing I’ll share with you though that happened. We were all taken to be cited down in the, in the garage under the state capitol building. And on that same day, Act Up, which is an AIDS, LBGT group that was fighting for, you know, that something be done about, you know, HIV AIDS, they were there, and they were taking extreme, what would you call that? Just, um, very more extreme protests. They were throwing fake blood on the marble steps and and onto, you know, the statues and things like that, and they were being treated very roughly by the cops, and metal handcuffs, and we were just sort of being either, you know, little plastic ties or nothing at all. And I remember saying to my dad, “Oh, we’re doing it right, you know, and they’re, they’re doing it… Like, if they weren’t so extreme, they’d be being treated more gently.” And my father said, “Oh, no. You need to understand that in political activism, there’s this huge continuum, and without them, we couldn’t be effective. That the, there are times for non-violent protests, there are times for more dramatic protests. There are lots of different ways to make your voice heard, and what we did today was one way, sitting in front of the governor’s office, and what they’re doing is another way, and it’s all part of social protests and social movements and tactics. And in some ways, what they’re doing makes what we’re doing also effective.” So it was a real teachable moment for me. I’m probably not articulating it as well as I could, but it was– it completely was like, “Oh, I get it now.” And, um, you know, it isn’t like there’s some sort of, oh, there’s this neat and tidy way to protest, and that there’s a sort of, oh, another way that’s not neat and tidy and somehow not as effective. They’re all effective, and they’re all part of this sort of protest ecosystem that’s needed when it’s needed. So it’s a little– that was a bit of a, a diversion, but it happened on the same day and definitely sort of had this big impact on me, and it was also a really beautiful moment between me and my father, where he was able to share with me, you know, his own stories, ’cause he had protested the Vietnam War and other things where there was more direct action involved. So it was… Yeah, it was one of those sort of special moments

Asher: I feel like that’s very, powerful, just the whole idea of, like, there is a time to do something more drastic, and there is a time to do peaceful protesting. Like, there’s definitely a time and place for every single one of them, depending on the situation, and especially for, like, disability rights, I feel like, or for any kind of human rights or, yeah, et cetera. Um, yeah, we’re getting to the last couple questions right now, Caleb, and you’re one of the, like, first couple of authors that we’ve ever interviewed on our collective, which is amazing, and we love to ask this question: What responsibilities, if any, do writers have when representing people whose experiences differ from their own, whether it’s a disability or whether it’s from a different culture?

Caleb: Oh, it’s such a great, it’s a really great question. I appreciate you asking it, Asher. Um, you know, I think I need to just be clear that my authority begins and ends with what I know, what I witnessed, how my parents’ lives affected me. So I’m, I think I said this, I’m not claiming to know even anything about them that they either didn’t tell me or wrote about and shared with me. And I’m certainly not taking on the role of spokesperson for any larger community. But I do think that writers must hold onto their creativity to imagine other people’s lives, especially in fiction. Which memoir is not, y- you know, but in fiction especially. And I think it comes to disability, and this is so hard for me sometimes to read books or to see movies and TV shows where I really take issue with how a person with a disability is portrayed. And most of the time I’m not happy at all, but I, I would like to challenge writers to create disabled characters who are full, complex human beings, not just their diagnoses, not just something heroic or pathetic or symbolic, right? And this is kind of a little bit of a fantasy for me. I think like a lot of people, I want my book to be turned into a movie, right? But at the same time, I’m kind of scared because what would some mainstream shop do with my family’s story? I don’t want them to portray my father as some inspiring wheelchair user and just totally counteract everything he believed in, or to do my mom, just make her, “She’s a mentally ill mother,” as opposed to someone more complex, which she is. So here’s what I would say to my fellow screenwriters and writers is like, keep it interesting. Preserve the contradiction. You know, be able to hold multiple ideas at once that a person with a disability could be competent and experience difficulty. That being raised by a disabled parent can be loving, and there are parts that can be harmful. That you can be idealistic, and there can be consequences as a result. And all of that complexity can coexist in a story about people with disabilities. So go for it. But, you know, don’t make a claim that you don’t have a right to. Don’t go for easy, easy labels and easy fixes.

Asher: For sure. Yeah, no, a big one. Yeah. It’s very difficult whenever we do see movies, TV shows that sort of portray disabilities in not a realistic way, I would say. There are some movies, and I’ve seen some pretty good ones that do portray, like whether it’s sign language or Deaf or hard of hearing, and they portray it in a really awesome and great way, and kudos to directors for doing that. Awesome. But yeah, no, definitely, it’s a huge balance of keeping it creative but also making it realistic kind of thing, and you touched greatly on that. Yeah, for sure. If every listener could make one change that would help create a more accessible world, what would you hope it would be, Caleb?

Caleb: My, my, my three wishes to the genie?

Asher: Yes. Yes, definitely. Three wishes Go for it

Caleb: God. I mean, I think we need to be talking about non-disabled people, right? We have to stop making assumptions about what a disabled person is capable of. You know, I mean, I’ve told you so many stories about my family already, but one of the ones that’s just so irritating even to this day is that my father went to grad school at UC Berkeley to study architecture, and he entered a contest and won it that provided a paid internship with the city of Berkeley. And he got to the building, the offices were on the fifth floor, no elevator, was using full leg braces and crutches, and he got himself to that meeting on time, and they took one look at him and said, “Oh, we can’t give you, we can’t give you the job. It, it would be too hard for you.” And it was so patronizing and so insulting. And, um, you know, my father was pissed, but he was undeterred, and he did go on to become a city planner and an urban design professor. And, uh, so yeah, I think that story for me just illustrates again, and this comes up every day, don’t assume what the other person needs. Don’t look at somebody and go, “Oh, they can’t do it.” Ask them. I feel like there’s a lack of, there’s a fear maybe around litigation, but just frigging ask people respectfully, “What do you need to make this work? What would a reasonable accommodation look like?” And not assume they can’t do it. Maybe nothing’s needed at all. There’s this, uh, very well-known adage in the disability rights community, I’m sure you’ve heard it, which is, Nothing About Us Without Us. And that’s really a pointed reminder at them, right? So I think is we know that disabled people need to be at the table when it affects their lives. And if you’re a non-disabled person, so this is my wish, if you’re a non-disabled person at the table, and you’re dealing with policy programs, investment, et cetera, that’s gonna affect the lives of disabled people, look around the table. If they are not there, stop the meeting and get them there. Or have them convene the meeting. It’s this idea of trying to backfill later: ” Oh, we need a, we need representation. We, you know, let’s go find, fill in the blank, person with a disability, person of color.” I mean, it’s, we have to stop that sort of phony representation and actually go, What’s the topic about? Who’s this for? And make sure that it’s their, that the people that it’s for are running the show. And that’s the philosophy I grew up with my father. He believed in community advocacy. That was actually a principle of urban planning, is that you don’t come in and tell a low income neighborhood what they need. You spend time in the community interviewing and meeting and empowering leadership from within so that they design their own community. That was as smart and on point I think at, in the ’60s when my father was practicing as it would be today. It’s like … And that’s what happened with the Ed Roberts Campus. We had an 18-member board all representing organizations who served disabilities and, it was that ultimate nothing about us without us. It was us. We weren’t doing anybody else. And I got to, I got the honor of being a project manager on that for many years, so I learned a lot.

Asher: Well, Caleb, thank you so much for, um, speaking to me today, uh, about your book. Um, and yeah, we’re looking forward to seeing it come out in the bookstore. Do you have any final messages or any hopes for readers who will read your book later on?

Caleb: Well, thank you. I hope people read the book and get the book. It’s called The Adventures of Superfreak: My Childhood on the Hippie Trail. It comes out September 21st. And I just hope that people carry way a greater tolerance for complexity. Obviously I’m a kid, and so my parents are a big part of the story, and I hope they see them, you know, as disabled people, as adventurers, as seekers, as parents, as advocates, as imperfect humans. Disability is certainly central to our family, but it’s not the only explanation of who we are and who we were as a family. I hope readers recognize that access and belonging are collective responsibilities, and that children are witnesses to the worlds adults create. Telling my story from a child’s perspective, I really want to focus that. We’re not just sort of baggage. We’re actually taking it all in. So I hope that, you know, we look more carefully at children inside history. What’s it like to grow up in movements, and what’s our responsibility for creating communities where we all can belong and feel part of? I think that sense of belonging is really important for children, and it’s important for all of us. And I, I hope that’s something that our readers will feel and take away from my book.

Asher: For sure. Thank you so much once again, Caleb. Appreciate, talking to you

Caleb: It’s been my pleasure, and, thank you for the opportunity.

Episode Outro Disclaimer

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Introduction

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, onÌý, and .

Meet the Guests

Asher: Hello, Let’s Talk! Listeners! My name is Asher, and I am here with some very special guests today from The Wheelchair Repair Shop. Do you guys mind introducing yourselves, your name, occupation, and your pronouns, please?

West: Sure! Thanks, Asher! This is a wonderful opportunity to share a little bit about ourselves. My name is West Livaudais, and I’m the executive director of Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, and my pronouns are he/him.

Tyler: Thanks, Asher. My name is Tyler. I use he or they pronouns, and I am one of our repair coordinators here, at The Wheelchair Repair Shop.

Asher: Awesome. Thank you guys so much for joining me today.Ìý

What the Repair Shop Is

Asher: For listeners who may not be familiar with your work, what is The Wheelchair Repair Shop and how did it come to exist?

West: Yeah, so The Wheelchair Repair Shop is a new program that Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is launching. It really came out of our wheelchair maintenance workshops, which is a monthly workshop that is hosted in multiple cities around the state. We meet for two to three hours, and we provide, education, free access to tools, and the space to help people address their critical wheelchair needs. Sometimes that’s simple maintenance or repairs, and we utilize volunteers that have a heart for this work to really make this program come alive. So, the wheelchair repair shop is an effort to expand the hours and we’re starting in Portland. We have a space and we have, I think it’s, four shifts of four hours each month currently.

Asher: Awesome. Cool. Thanks for that, West.Ìý

From Workshops to Shop

Asher: What role does The Wheelchair Repair Shop play within the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection?

West: So, the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is like the parent organization, and The Wheelchair Repair Shop is like a microenterprise, or a small business, within the organization. The shift from “The Wheelchair Maintenance Workshops” to The Wheelchair Repair Shop is a shift from thinking about the work purely from a nonprofit perspective; getting grants and donations to do this work, and provide free services and parts to people, utilizing the revenue that comes through, providing services and repairs to make the program more sustainable, expand the services, and provide different modes in which people can access those services. Namely, mobile options and providing good quality, new parts, to people that can’t afford, perhaps, like brand new equipment.

Asher: I feel like that’s a very important part for people who do use wheelchairs and are wheelchair bound. They need the accessibility to be able to grab the parts they need in order to fix their wheelchairs and be able to move around. That’s a very huge work. Thanks for doing that.Ìý

How They Got Here

Asher: Can each of you tell us a little bit about your background and what brought you to this work?

Tyler: I can start first, West. So, I’m actually not a wheelchair user. My background is that I was a bicycle mechanic for a really long time and I got interested in organizing around public transit, walkable cities, urban infrastructure… Through working in those groups, I ended up getting introduced to West and Allison, who started The Wheelchair Repair Nights at Bike Farm. I had no connection to the disability world, or anything like that. But, they told me, “Hey, we’re starting this wheelchair repair event and we think you’d be great.”. My first thought was, I don’t know anything about wheelchairs or repairing them, or anything, how can I be helpful? But, I’m really glad that they both pushed on me a little bit, because it turns out that repairing wheelchairs is really, really similar to the kind of skills that I had from working on bikes. It’s been really exciting to, over the years, kind of use these skills I already had, but use them in a different way that’s really impactful. So, it’s just been really fun, and I’ve really enjoyed kind of working with this program. But, yeah. I did not come at this from a disability sort of background. I came into it from more of just like a mechanical and volunteering thing. But, I will say like learning about this gap in services that the current kind of repair industry is leaving people in; it’s been really motivating and really encouraged me to dive deeper into the disability-related work.

West: I’ll go next. So, I do have a spinal cord injury, in 2013, and out of that experience started Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection to try to create community and access to services and resources that I didn’t experience. Part of that experience of becoming a wheelchair user was navigating durable medical equipment services and getting access to learning how to repair my chair. It wasn’t easy and it quickly became obvious that it’s easier to do it with somebody else’s help. Specifically, to Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, my spinal cord injury is what brought me to that work, as a wheelchair user. Trying to navigate durable medical equipment, companies, and fixing my chair on my own really was the idea that brought Allison and me together to start The Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop.

How OSCIC Started

Asher: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing how The Wheelchair Repair Shop and how The Spinal Cord Injury Connection also came to be. I know you touched on this a little bit, West. But, what fully inspired you to create the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection? Was it simply your injury, something else, or…

West: yeah, I guess what I would share is; after my spinal cord injury, I was trying to make sense of the world and move forward as best I could. I was working in Public Health and I started a degree at OHSU to get a Master’s Degree in Public Health. That, in addition to my experience with spinal cord injury, galvanized me to host meetups where I would meet other people and we could share stories and build community. Those meetups were really well-received and more and more people came; they were here in Portland. Over the course of a year, or two years, they kinda became… I don’t know what to say. But, basically, people knew that they were there and I was encouraged to try to make it something more, and that’s when we became a nonprofit. So, what I try to do and what I’ve tried to create with Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is, a space where people can thrive and find community after a really devastating injury. It can be very devastating and families can find themselves at a loss without resources and it’s very disruptive at nearly every level of a person’s life; physically, educationally, job-wise, relationally. It just turns everything upside down. What I’ve come to learn over these years is that, more than money, more than the level of injury that a person has, like a really serious injury or a lesser, almost any other factor; having strong community support is one of the greatest indicators that someone will thrive after a spinal cord injury. So, to put it simply, starting the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection was my way of metabolizing something that happened to me and trying to make it positive.

Why Repair Matters

Asher: That’s awesome. As soon as you started the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, you saw some gaps that were unmet in the community. Was that how you identified that wheelchair repair was such an important service to offer?

West: Yeah. Tyler alluded to this previously. But, people that use wheelchairs, rely on wheelchairs for their independence and, getting out into the community quickly realize that the medical industrial complex has a lockdown on wheelchair repair and parts. It’s difficult, it’s frustrating, and it can actually have serious negative health consequences for a person when their chair breaks down. It has physical aspects and emotional aspects and it’s really cool to come together with bike mechanics who care about wheelchair users and watch them learn what a wheelchair is. In those conversations at The Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop, at Bike Farm in Portland, I’ve seen wheelchair users impart their experience to the mechanic and the wheelchair user didn’t realize they knew so much technical aspects about their chair. Then the bike mechanic picked it up and started helping and working alongside this wheelchair user to fix what needed to be fixed. I guess for me, in a city that loves bicycles, there could not be a more like synergistic, symbiotic partnership. That’s what I’ve seen with these Wheelchair Maintenance Workshops, at the Bike Farm in Portland, every month. People coming to learn, people coming to be in community getting their wheelchair fixed when they’re really in a pinch. It’s a joyful place. It hums with positive energy and Tyler is kind of leader in that space. He has a ton of experience and like I think he’s naturally talented at problem-solving and people love to learn from him, and we all love to learn from each other. I’m not sure if that exactly answered the question, but it gives you a little bit of insight into the spirit of what this work is about.

Asher: It’s great. I love it! Yeah, definitely answered the question. Thinking about it, bicycles and wheelchairs sort of do have the same part, and correct me if I’m wrong, I’m not an expert at that either.

West: I’ll let Tyler answer that.

Proud Moments and Growth

Asher: I’ll get to that question as well, later on down the line in our list of questions too. Looking back, West, is there a moment or success story that makes you especially proud? Whether it’s The Wheelchair Repair Shop that you guys have opened up recently or the Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection?

West: I would say there are many things that I’m proud of. Not only for Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, but also for the Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop. Of all of those things, what comes to mind immediately is the years that Alison and Tyler and I showed up at Bike Farm during COVID and during wintertime when nobody showed up. We tried, and we tried, and the season wasn’t right, perhaps. But, they stuck with it and there were times where I’m like, “Why haven’t you given up on this or given up on me with this?”. I realized then it wasn’t “Tyler and Alison doing West a favor” to lift this program and make it happen; it was their work their passion. Their care for this community. It’s like when a match lights another match, now you have two flames. This is what’s happening with the Wheelchair Maintenance Workshop and the Wheelchair Repair Shop, in Portland and around the state, is when we empower somebody with tools and equipment and companionship, their mechanical literacy improves, they have more confidence and they have a place to come to with this problem. With this challenge of living a life, in a wheelchair; maintaining it. That gives me so much joy. Tyler’s here. I’m very grateful to Tyler and, Alison is not here, I’m very grateful to Alison. We wouldn’t be here today. We wouldn’t have the success we had and The Wheelchair Repair Shop probably wouldn’t happen.

Tyler’s Coordinator Role

Asher: That’s super sweet! Thanks for that, West.Ìý I’m moving the questions onto Tyler. I’m sorry to leave you out of that whole conversation. What does a typical day look like for you as a Wheelchair Repair Coordinator at the Wheelchair Repair Store?

Tyler: Yeah. So, “coordinating” is definitely the key word there. We are really new, making this move from something that we’re doing once a month to having a physical store where we’re open once a week. As we’ve opened, we’ve already been sort of flooded by repair requests. Which is great on the one hand and, on the other hand, it really highlights the size of this problem. That there’s so many people in the Portland area, that are not having these mechanical issues fixed in a timely or safe kind of manner. But, the coordinating part of my job is just fielding all of those requests and trying to pair people up with our volunteers, who are awesome and have really widely different skill sets. So, trying to pair a person with a volunteer who is going to be able to help them with whatever it is that they’re working on; whether it’s a power chair or they need some help with some seating adjustments, or whatever it is. Just trying to tie specific people in our community who have this need with a volunteer who has the time, energy, and skills to help them. So, yeah. A lot of coordinating, a lot of networking, and it’s really been cool to watch this kind of network get built.

Asher: Are you mostly in the store all the time now that it’s open, or do you do a lot of work from elsewhere?

Tyler: I do work from home mostly. This is not my full-time job, so I do it on the side and a lot of it is email and phone-based to just reach out to people; make sure that they feel heard. “Hey, we’ve received your request. We’re getting you connected with someone.”. Another thing that’s been really interesting is, thanks to some recent legislation that we helped get passed last year; we’re now able to access a lot more repair documentation online. Which means that a big chunk of my job now is also this computer research element; trying to figure out, “hey, this person, they gave me the serial number for their wheelchair. Let’s see if we can figure out, based on the service manual, what kind of batteries it has”, or something like that. So, that was not something I expected as much, but it’s become a larger part of my job lately. Is this kind of internet sleuthing, trying to figure out what could be causing this problem, or how does the manual recommend that we fix it? What have other people on the internet, across the world, done to solve these problems? Because we’re often kinda operating in an ecosystem where there isn’t always great info about how to solve these things. So, that’s been an unexpected but fun sort of component lately, too.

Ìý

Right To Repair Bill Explained

Asher: What is this law that was passed that you mentioned, last year, if you don’t mind talking a little bit about it?Ìý

Tyler: So, Oregon, a few years ago, passed a Right To Repair Bill. When it was first passed, the Right To Repair Bill covered consumer electronics. So, things like cell phones, TVs, laptops. The point of a Right To Repair Bill is to really break the monopoly that companies have on repairing devices. The most common one that everyone is familiar with would be smartphones. So, for a long time, if your screen broke; on iPhone, you had to take it to the Apple Store. In states with Right To Repair, you can have third-party repair businesses. So, all of a sudden, these businesses pop up that repair cell phones from all kinds of brands. These parts, the service diagrams, all of these things are made available to whoever kind of wants to fix them. So, you can fix them yourself, you can hire someone at a repair shop to do it, or you can take it to the manufacturer. You essentially have options when you want to decide how something gets repaired. Last year, what we helped get passed was that durable medical equipment, including powered wheelchairs, got added to the existing Right To Repair Bill. So, now it covers phones, laptops, computers, but also, really importantly, things like power chairs. So, companies can no longer sort of hide behind this monopoly. They now have to make these documents, tools– specialized tools, is another one. I think the text of the law says they have to be made available to the public at a reasonable price. So, if there’s some specific tool where it’s like you need this specific wrench to work on this specific object, that wrench has to be made available to the public at a, quote, “reasonable price”. So, that’s been really huge for us in helping to make sure that we actually can repair things. For a long time, a lot of repair tasks were sort of locked up, because these companies were hiding behind this monopoly.

Asher: Oh, interesting! Wow, I had no idea that wheelchairs, in general, don’t have an instruction manual or don’t have a way of telling you, “Oh, this is how you repair it in case this thing breaks down.”! I would think that machinery would have something that goes with it! But, I’m also very glad that that law has now been passed, and it was passed last year? Is there a name for the law itself, or I completely missed it, probably?

Tyler: West, do you remember what it was? I want to say it was “SB 55”, in Oregon?

West: Yeah, I think it was “SB 550”.

Tyler: “550”. Thanks. YeahÌý

West: Championed by Senator Janeen Sollman.

Common Fixes and Issues Encountered at the Shop

Asher: That’s so good. I’m so glad that wheelchairs, especially machine-operated wheelchairs, now are able to be properly repaired and with the right tools at a reasonable price. With that, what are the most common repairs or issues encountered at The Wheelchair Repair Shop? Do you mostly fix “machine-based” wheelchairs or “manual”? Yeah, there we go. Correct me if I’m wrong with those terminologies and such.

Tyler: Yeah, I actually get asked this question a lot, and I always kind of get excited about it. Because, the answer is that the most common stuff is really, really small stuff. For example, “Hey, this bolt is loose. Can you tighten it?”. There’s so many things that– I’m surprised– don’t actually require, specialized tools or a whole workshop to fix. There’s so many times where people are like, “Hey, could you just raise the feet on my power chair by a half an inch?”, or “Can you tighten this bolt that’s coming loose?”, “Can you put this cup holder on the left side instead of the right side?”. Some of these things are really small, mechanically. But, of course, they make a really big difference to people. It’s like a bug in your brain when your wheel is squeaking everywhere you go. We just have to put a little bit of oil on that and tighten this bolt and it goes away. A lot of the things are not very complicated, so there’s a lot of repairs that kind of fall into that category. There’s kind of another category of just, wear and tear. We do live in a pretty rainy place, so it’s pretty common for bearings to get rusty, or just dirty from the water kind of splashing around in the wheels all the time. So, we replace a lot of bearings. Tires are another thing that just wear out over time as people roll on them, so we replace tires. Another one that has been coming up a lot lately is power chair batteries. Just like a cellphone batteries only have so many cycles of being charged and discharged before they wear out. So, some power chair batteries can last two to five years. But, oftentimes, when people get to the end of the life of the power chair batteries, they notice, “oh, it’s getting really slow. It doesn’t hold a charge for very long.”. So, that’s another thing that people pretty frequently reach out to us about.

Barriers in Traditional Repair

Asher: You mentioned this a little bit, Tyler. But, what are some challenges people face when trying to get repairs through traditional channels? Whether it’s like coming into the shop to get it fixed or even going online; you were talking a little bit about like forums and trying to figure out the whole internet space of getting requests in for repairs and such.

Tyler: Yeah. This is definitely a topic that could be a whole hour-long podcast. Because, as with so many complex issues, there’s some sort of small things and then there’s some really big structural things. One of the really big structural things is in this country we have this whole insurance system of approvals and denials. I think everyone who’s interfaced with the medical world knows that can sometimes take a long time. People are also sometimes required to prove medical necessity for things. So, maybe you already have a wheelchair, but in order to get a repair done on the thing you need to prove to your insurance company that you still need this wheelchair. So, there’s all these kind of steps that we’ve added to the medical system that require people to document things, get stamped by 5 to 10 people, and all this stuff causes really long delays; which is really what makes it unacceptable. To have these repair companies telling people, “Well, we can’t come out to even look at it to diagnose the problem for three to six months.”. Then they figure out, “we need to replace your tires.”, then it’s gonna be another three to six months before they can go through that whole process, get insurance on board, order the parts, install them… at the workshops, people tell us a lot of horror stories about technicians who show up at their houses unannounced, so they weren’t home and then they say, “You missed your appointment. You have to wait.”. There’s so many things that just make it really hard for people to access. Which is why, increasingly, people are taking this more DIY, sort of, approach. So, one of the things that we kinda offer people is; a lot of the stuff that we’re doing is not really “medical”, in the sense that there are lots of things on wheelchairs. For example, seating adjustments, fitting, that you should have a professional custom fit the wheelchair for you. But, there’s other things, for example, putting new tires on; that aren’t really a medical procedure so much as they are just like a repair procedure. So, a lot of the stuff that we try to do is say, “Hey, like we can handle that stuff. That is well within our wheelhouse. You shouldn’t have to jump through all these hoops. We can tell you where to get tires from. We can help you figure out what size. We can install them.” So, even though some people are willing to go the DIY route, there’s another kind of thing too where some people, maybe they live in an apartment, they don’t really have space, maybe they don’t have tools, maybe whatever disability they have is limiting their hand function; they may not physically be able to hold a wrench in the way that is needed to do something like change a tire. So, that’s another place where we can come in and say, “Hey, we’re doing this still in a DIY, type of way”, but it’s really more of a “do it together”. To say, “How much do you wanna be involved? Do you wanna try to do this yourself? Would you like me to do it for you?”. We really try to work with you, but it’s still a very DIY process.

Asher: That’s awesome and great that even with all these different hoops of like insurance– I know that can be a really big nightmare to hop through– that The Wheelchair Shop is there to help out people in a very quick way or a very “DIY way”, as you mentioned. I’m sure that once there is a broken wheelchair, it quickly becomes a very big major life disruption for someone as well.Ìý

Stories That Show Impact

Asher: Are there any repair stories that have stayed with you, or even with West, as well, just because of the difference that it made for someone’s life?

Tyler: Yeah, I can take this one first, and then I’ll pass it to West. But, every one of these stories, everything sticks with you. Because, you hear these horror stories from people and it’s just very aggravating. But, also very motivating. People are very thankful when you help them out, because of these things that they’ve gone through trying to get service. But, some of the stories that stick with me; there was a person who, the batteries ran out on their mobility scooter and, because of that, they were living in a skilled nursing type facility. We replaced the batteries in this scooter, and that was the difference for them between independence and living in the skilled nursing facility. So, they were able to return to like a more traditional apartment and live independently, which was lower cost for them, and also a much better experience for their mental health because they’re independently living, right? That’s a really empowering thing for a lot of people to do. So, there’s stories like that, where there’s this one mechanical piece of the puzzle that is keeping someone from something, and it’s really satisfying to go in and just literally fix that thing that is a barrier to this goal of theirs. Especially at all the monthly Bike Farm Workshops; there’s so many small repairs that we make that make a big difference to people. We’ll change the bearings out on someone’s wheelchair, they go to push it forward, and they’re just like, “Oh, whoa, this rolls so fast now!”. That was a five-minute little project and it made such a big difference to that person. That stuff is just like really, really heartening and so cool to see every time. I’ll pass it to West.

West: Thanks, Tyler. I have two short stories I would share that kinda illustrate why The Wheelchair Repair Shop is needed. The first is, one of my employees used a manual wheelchair and had a secondary chair. His primary manual wheelchair had a flat tire and he decided to go kind of, the recommended route of going to his primary care provider to get a referral to the DME Company to have his tire changed on his wheelchair. Basically, once he did that, he started the clock to see how long it would take for somebody to come fix his chair and being paid through insurance. It took three or four months to have an inner tube changed out of his primary chair. I think about that; there’s a lot of reasons why it is the way it is. That would also be another long podcast of describing why there are these breakdowns and the way the system’s set up. But, most people, would go to a bike shop and have somebody change the tube. It would cost a lot less. It would be a lot quicker. So, that was kind of an experiment that we ran just to see how bad is it really? A simple repair like an inner tube being changed shouldn’t take three or four months and it shouldn’t cost more than twenty-five dollars. It has such a huge impact. The other thing is a lot of people don’t have secondary chairs just hanging around that they can use. Another story is a good friend of mine, who uses a power chair, had the motors go out on his chair. It was a similar situation, it was a pretty new chair, and the motor should not have gone out. It took six months for him to get his chair back into his primary chair and, during that six months, he used another chair that wasn’t fit for him, or wasn’t suited to him. So, for those six months, it was really uncomfortable to be in a chair that wasn’t fitted for him and wasn’t his. When we’re able to quickly sidestep, or navigate, around all the requirements, that the medical industry requires of insurance, we’re able to get people batteries, fixed bearings, and get them back to living the life they love. Without the heartache and the frustration and the downtime that is characteristic of, working within– I’m gonna call it– just the medical industrial complex. Where there’s just so many requirements, so much paperwork, so much back and forth, other people, doctors, and insurance agents giving you permission to get your chair fixed, which is ludicrous.

Asher: It really does sound very ludicrous. Yeah, I can’t believe it takes at least about three months, four months, just to get something as simple as a wheelchair wheel to get like re-pumped or replaced. That’s so strange! I mean, if I think about it; if I bring my car to a repair shop and I’m like, “Oh, hey! My car has a flat tire”, instant change. But, when it comes to a wheelchair, it’s three- four months? What?

West: Yeah, and I’ll just speak to that briefly if you’d let me.

Asher: Oh, yeah! Of course.

Ìý

Why Maintenance Isn’t Covered by Insurance

West: So, most health insurances and the centers for Medicare and Medicaid, don’t cover preventative maintenance. So, like you go to the shop to get your oil changed and your tires rotated, you pay for that out of pocket, but you know that’s standard care for your car, otherwise it’s gonna break down. Well, there is standard care that’s prescribed for your chair, but it’s upon the user. It’s their responsibility to do that. When you buy or you get the chair they give you the manual, or they give you some educational materials, on how you should clean it and all that. But, durable medical equipment distributors, suppliers, aren’t paid, aren’t reimbursed to do that work. So, they have to find other ways to make that pencil. So, it’s not a priority ’cause they can’t charge the end user to do that work. That gap causes chairs to break down more quickly and in the end that is beneficial to those durable medical equipment companies. Because, they make money off of selling new products and billing insurance for a new chair, billing insurance for a new set of push rims, or whatever. Versus doing frequent low-cost maintenance and repairs. That’s one thing and, then the other thing is, over the course of years, the many wheelchair repair shops that used to exist around the country, in the ’60s and ’70s have been, consolidated. So, that maybe there was 25 in The City of Portland and over the decades those have been bought up and consolidated. Now, in The State of Oregon, there’s really two main competitors. It’s “New Mobility” and “National Seating & Mobility”. Those two entities are owned by, “Private Equity”. Private Equity has just a totally different set of criteria to how they run their shops. What we hear is that the ATPs, people that are working on the ground, visiting people, trying to fix their chairs, at times there’s a lot of frustration at that level because their hands are tied. They’re not able to do everything that they want to do because of the corporate structure, of the organization they work within. So, people are feeling it all over, and speaking to a question earlier, that’s some of the larger context for why The Wheelchair Repair Shop is emerging; is that there’s a real need for it and there’s a large systemic breakdown in how we provide service and repair to wheelchair users.

Asher: For sure. It sounds, overall, very complicated in order to just get a wheelchair fixed. It sounds like there’s a lot of moving pieces, as well, in the whole process and such.Ìý

Primary Vs Secondary Harm When Repair Is Slow

Asher: You both mentioned a little bit about what happens when a person has a broken wheelchair and even one of the stories where they had to move into an assistive living and not having that independence; what happens when a wheelchair breaks and repairs aren’t immediately available? Are there options for that person to be able to get another wheelchair, or would they have to go into assistive living, or are there other options for that person who needs to have a wheelchair to move around and to have that independence?

Tyler: Yeah, I can speak on this just a little bit. So, West and I often talk about this in terms of there’s “primary” harm and then there’s “secondary”. So, people have experienced physical harm because of a wheelchair breakdown. People sometimes fall out of their wheelchairs. We had someone come in who; this thing had gotten loose on their foot plate and it was getting jammed in the crack when they were trying to board the MAX. These are things that could have been incredibly serious injuries. So, that’s like the “primary” thing. The “secondary” things are all those downstream effects. West was talking about this person who got a new power chair and, even though it was brand new, the motors still went out and they ended up in this secondary chair. Those are the situations that can cause things like pressure sores, other secondary health effects. Oftentimes, when people do have backup chairs, it’s something that they maybe have purchased on Amazon or at Goodwill. So, they may have a custom fit wheelchair but, if that’s the one that’s broken down, their backup may be like a hospital style chair or like a folding type wheelchair that doesn’t really have advanced seating or it may not be sort of adjusted to their body. There’s a person who emailed me last week, who’s having some shoulder pain from the fact that they’re using their backup chair currently and it’s not fit to them the way that their primary wheelchair is. So, there are some immediate difficult things, but there’s also this whole long list of the ways that it can physically, “secondarily” harm people. But, I think I’ll pass it over to West because there’s also this whole psychological and mental component too of what happens when people are just stuck.

West: Yeah. Thanks, Tyler. That psychological piece; it is devastating. When you had plans to go out with friends, or go to church, or go to school, or whatever it happens to be, and then you’re just stuck, or you need to ask for help in some unconventional ways to get where you need to go. It just takes a toll. I could give you some really funny analogies, basically like, imagine if you were walking around with your pants on backwards or your shirt inside out. It has that kind of effect. Your wheelchair is intricately connected to your health; physical, emotional, mental. So, when it breaks down, you’re broken down. The other thing I wanted to share, if they have no other option, if the durable medical equipment company isn’t able to fix their chair, and they’re not able to rent a chair to the person on a short-term basis, that person will start making phone calls, start searching the internet, “How am I gonna get a new chair?”. They might be looking on Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace or they find us, Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, or they’re connected in the spinal cord injury, or disability community, and they start reaching out , and asking for help. So, Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection has employed other people with spinal cord injuries as community health workers, and those community health workers are embedded in the community. They are people obviously with spinal cord injuries. Their work is to connect people, know people, find resources, be educated on these topics. Many times I’ve seen this where the team of community health workers starts asking and looking around for a chair. Some of the community health workers, they love doing this and almost every time we find one. There are chairs out there and people are willing to loan them, but health equity emerges out of community. It doesn’t emerge from institutions. It’s fortunate that we’ve built this network, but I don’t think people should have to rely on that. Health Insurance and the way that we provide wheelchair services and repairs; it’s just broken. People have to go to the internet and Craigslist to find a chair that will help them in a lurch. So, that’s also what happens after a breakdown. People start finding ways to get the help they need and that’s why the Wheelchair Repair Shop exists.

Ìý

Misconceptions About Wheelchair Users

Asher: What misconceptions do people often have about wheelchair users or accessibility needs, in you guys’ opinions?

Tyler: West, I have like a mechanical answer to this. Do you wanna go first with your more direct experience as a wheelchair user?Ìý

West: Sure. I really can just speak to my experience. misconceptions, I’d say, probably the primary one is that, as a wheelchair user, I’m not able to do something simple. I’m just thinking about opening the door and people want to open the door for me. I have come to accept that, but for a long time it bothered me. I’m like, “I can open this door it’s fine. Don’t everyone throw themselves at me so they can get the door open for me.”. There are times where someone does wanna open the door and I’m going under their arm. It’s just weird. It just gets weird. It makes me think about, “why? Why are people doing that?”. I think it’s because there’s this misconception that I can’t open a door, or there are other examples as well; pull a chair out from a table or something. I do appreciate the help and it’s because I’m in a wheelchair. There are other people that maybe can’t do that and they need that help. So, again, I’m speaking to my own experience. The other one that I’ve experienced is an iciness, a chill. Being in a wheelchair, there may be the sense that I’m very different from the person I’m standing next to on the bus or in the elevator or maybe there’s a curiosity about it, but they don’t wanna ask because they don’t think they should, or they wanna know what happened to you. All these weird questions interfere, at times, with the natural interaction. So, I will just take it upon myself to use humor or start the conversation if I want to. But, that’s another thing I think I feel sometimes; is a little bit of distance with random folks, because I’m a wheelchair user. So, not sure if that’s helpful. That’s been some of my experience.

Asher: That’s definitely helpful. Thanks for that, West. What are your thoughts on that, Tyler, from a mechanic perspective?

Tyler: Yeah. I Feel like the biggest misconception that I come across, and I’m speaking as a person who’s frequently fixing wheelchairs, I feel like so many people treat them as this magical object that they can never possibly understand. I think a lot of people really underestimate their mechanical ability, if that makes sense? I see this is also not unique to wheelchairs. This happens a lot with bicycles, with cars, with stuff like that where people are like, ” Oh, I could never figure out how to change a battery in my car.”. I bet you can. I bet with maybe a coworker or friend who can walk you through it you can do it. Anyway, I think one of the biggest sort of misconceptions about wheelchairs is that like working on them is gonna be this really complicated thing. I will admit sometimes it is. There was a power chair I was working on yesterday that was very, very complicated. But, a lot of things aren’t. Changing the tires on a wheelchair; okay, maybe it’s not something that everyone just knows how to do, but with a little bit of training and help they can figure it out. It’s not more difficult than it is to change the tire on a bicycle. Changing the batteries on a power chair is not really more difficult than it is to change the batteries in a car. If you’ve done that or maybe your dad showed you once; these things are not unlearnable, black magic kind of things. Sometimes people approach them that way. So, that’s one of the joys of the workshop and this kind of do it together model is to help people kind of break through that and teach them you actually can understand how this is connected to this and it affects this. Especially with a device that you use every day. People just don’t trust themselves a lot and it’s really fun to get to break through that.

Asher: Yeah, I totally agree with you both. Especially in today’s day and age where we can learn everything from the internet, from YouTube videos and people online, and it’s very helpful. West, I understand people trying to open the door for you, especially if you’re using a wheelchair. Not even that, like if your hands are full . At ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, where I’m working at right now, the doors are just heavy and super awkward to open in general, so I can’t even imagine having a wheelchair and needing to try to open that. But, the great thing about it, right now, is Universal Design. So, even if your hands are full, or even if you have a wheelchair, or whatever have you, they have accessible buttons that you can press and the doors just automatically open for you. Which gives a great sense of independence to people as well, which I really love.Ìý

Policy Changes in Healthcare Systems & Insurance Processes

Asher: What changes would you like to see in healthcare systems, insurance processes, or public policy related to wheelchair repair, mobility, and equipment? You guys have mentioned just the law that you guys managed to pass last year, which is a awesome win! Are there more wins that you guys are looking forward to in the next coming year, or so?

West: I’ll start. I don’t know if there will be more wins. I don’t know what they are. One thing that I would love to see changed is preventative maintenance to be codified and prescribed and paid for by insurance. That would probably prevent a lot of breakdowns, keep people happier, and allow the durable medical equipment service companies to be able to do those services. I do think what we’re doing now is empowering people and The Right To Repair Legislation, that Tyler spoke about previously, is going to facilitate that too. So I don’t know if it’s just one change. I do think that the work that Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection is doing with the wheelchair repair is, over time, going to change the landscape in Oregon and give people more resources and empower people and even create some economic opportunities. So, yeah. That’s one thing that I’m looking forward to.

Asher: Is there anything you’re looking forward to, Tyler, or just echoing West as well?

Tyler: Definitely what West said about preventative maintenance should be a billable category. That would be a huge thing. The other thing that I think about a lot is; this isn’t directly related to repair, but what people call “being on disability”, receiving money from the government, whatever that looks like. ‘Cause there’s different programs, but in almost every program you’re subject to an asset cap. So, you can only have so much in your savings account. The way that it’s related to repair is that ends up affecting people’s ability to do things like buy batteries or pay for services. So, that’s just like a disability in general kind of thing. But, having those asset limits removed or even just updated and increased for the inflation and today’s modern economy. Those numbers don’t get changed all that often, so it’s still incredibly low. So, that would be really cool to see. The other one that I thought of was; we’re not the only place that got Right To Repair Legislation, and specific to wheelchairs. 2026 is so far shaping up to be a big year potentially for Right To Repair Bills nationwide, and many of them include wheelchairs. One of the cool things is that the two kind of biggest groups of people we see advocating for the right to repair stuff is tractor owners and power wheelchair users. So, it’s been really cool to see. A lot of times, these bills are getting started in these states where there’s a lot of agriculture and then people are able to build this coalition of wheelchair users, farmers, and all these people and say, “We’re all gonna work together to get a Right To Repair bill passed and we need to make sure it includes tractors, wheelchairs, cars, iPhones!”. So, that’s just an exciting thing to see. I hope all those bills pass and I’m excited to see the kind of future of those in more and more states.

Asher: Definitely! I look forward to it too! I love these type of conversations, because I learn so much from it and I had no idea that there was such thing as a Right to Repair Bill. I feel like that should be just a universal thing, or already established thing, in general.Ìý

Big Goals For The Repair Shop

Asher: Going back to The Repair Shop, what are the goals for the shop in general over the next few years and are there any new services or programs, events that you guys are excited about?

West: I could take a stab at that and, Tyler, definitely feel free to say more. But, we have some short-term goals that I think we need to work out. By the end of the year, we’d like to add, or add more, volunteer shifts to The Wheelchair Repair Shop. I’d say if you’re listening to this and you’re curious. If you’re mechanically inclined, or you have a background in bike mechanic work; reach out to Tyler and we’ll introduce you to the work. We would love, in the next year or two years, to add a mobile component to this work. Many people that have their chairs broken down transporting to somewhere else; whether it’s driving or public transportation, it’s difficult. So, that mobile unit is helpful. That mobile option is helpful. I think those are the two kind of big goals to demonstrate that this Wheelchair Repair Shop pilot is gonna work. We need to create revenue to pay for our rent, pay for our inventory, and the services. Right now, we’re utilizing volunteers and we have a lot of really good used parts that we have, that are donated. So, we have to demonstrate our kind of business model. Maybe we can chat again in a year or two and we can share how we’ve succeeded. Tyler, do you wanna pick it up from there?

Tyler: Yeah, totally. One of the reasons that we’re really putting our energy into this effort is, because, previously, our workshop was once a month. Now we’re once a week. But, yeah. Just more volunteers to be able to be open twice a week would be incredible. Of course, long-term super big picture, we have 20 staff and everyone has a Sprinter Van and they’re driving all over the state to go fix stuff for a lot of rural people who can’t make it to a place like Portland. So, yeah. We have really big dreams. But, of course, baby steps in getting there. Our first goals are really, prove that this is a way that we can meet this community need and grow to the point where we’ve got enough availability that people don’t have to wait quite so long to come in to get service. We just need volunteers, and to do that, to be able to expand that little bit. So, those are our immediate goals.

How To Support & Donate WCRS

Asher: That’s awesome. I love that! The Wheelchair Repair Mobile. Be able to go around helping people fix their wheelchairs and stuff. That’s a great idea. How can people support your work or get involved in that effort, whether it’s through volunteering or anything else, and if listeners wanna learn more?

West: Yeah, definitely. Hit us up. Come check out our website; “www.wheelchairrepair.org”. Oregon Spinal Cord Injury’s website is; “oregonsci.org”. So, check us out definitely. We’d love your visit to the shop. We’d love a referral if you know somebody that needs preventative maintenance or simple repairs, come to us. You can also schedule an appointment. So, while we don’t have a van Tyler, and there’s another person, that will come to people’s homes and provide service to their chair there in their space. Donations; if you have a third wheelchair that is in good condition, let us know. We will definitely put it to use and get it to somebody who needs it. Donations in dollars; if you wanna become a monthly donor to this work, again, reach out. Those donations would go through the parent organization, Oregon Spinal Cord Injury Connection, and be directed to this work. Honestly, the idea of having a mobile unit is a longer term goal. But, if somebody does have a van, or wants to donate, knows a car dealership that has way too many cars, we would receive a donation and get that program moving in the right direction. So, those are some of the big things that come to mind. Also, I’ll just say one other thing, and Tyler I think I’m stealing your thunder here, but like tools, or pieces like shock vac, air compressor, ladder… there are things that we need, to do the work. So, that would be another way that people could donate or support our work.

Final Takeaways & Wrap Up

Asher: Awesome. Thank you so much, West!Ìý Finally, last question, if listeners are to remember one thing from this conversation, what would you want it to be? I’ll start with you, Tyler, and then we can end off with West on that.

Tyler: I’m gonna get a little philosophical with this answer, to kinda close out. I think the biggest thing is; I was mentioning how I got pulled into this work, and I kinda joke about it as being “pulled in”, because I didn’t have any connection. But, I hope that everyone out there can find a way where your particular skill set and interests can be helpful to someone. It’s such a cool thing to have these moments of, “Oh, I can help with that,” and then you find out there’s all these people who you can help. I think that it’s been really just such a joy to get to work with everyone and find a place where you get to be useful. It’s a really great feeling. I also know times are tough and not everyone has the capacity to spend a whole bunch of free time volunteering and stuff like that. But, even still, there are still so many ways where people can get plugged in. So, I hope everyone finds that thing, that lights them up. I also secretly hope that it’s repairing wheelchairs and that you’ll come volunteer for us. But, whatever it is, that’s just a really exciting thing to see.

West: And if Tyler was philosophical, I’ll be very practical. “www.wheelchairrepair.org”. Check it out and come visit our shop. We’re excited about this work and we wanna share that with y’all.

Asher: Awesome. Thank you guys so much, West and Tyler. Once again, from the Wheelchair Repair Shop and also from the Oregon Spinal Injury Coalition. Thank you guys so much for the work that you guys do and maybe we’ll hear from you guys in a year to see how it’s going and if you guys got any more wins for the Spinal Cord Injury and Disability community. Appreciate you guys so much. Thank you so much for interviewing with us!

West: Thanks, Asher!

Tyler: Yeah, thanks for inviting us on. This has been really fun!

Outro

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our ,Ìýour Spotify channel, on , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

 

Show Intro and Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Zoe: Hi, everyone. I’m your host Zoe, and welcome to our latest episode of A Slice of Life. As always, with me is our lovely guide dog, Tucker, and joining us later will be Kuma to help us prepare the meal and one of our guest hosts, Patricia. But, right here with me now I have our first guest host, Ray.Ìý

Ray: Well, I’m Ray. What can I say?Ìý

Zoe: Ray and I met when I used to work at Costco, as a sales associate, back in 2020… Ooh, was it ‘4, I think it was? Yeah, 2024, right?Ìý

Ray: Well, it was two- three years ago?

Zoe: Yeah, it was like the end of 2023-ish. So, I would say between two and a half to three years now. So, that’s been a while. And, Ray’s been a role model and inspiration for me, and it’s been really great getting to know Ray all these years. So, yeah. I suppose for our first question; what are we making today?

Today’s Recipe

Ray: Well, we’re making a family pie called a “Lemon Dream Pie” with Meringue topping.Ìý

Zoe: Oh my, that sounds fabulous! And, I’m gonna be totally honest here; I am awful at baking. I don’t know what it is. I always try to measure as perfectly as possible. Not too high, not too low, the right measuring cups, get the right temperatures. But for me, I don’t know what it is. I just can’t seem to make it work. But I imagine that this pie, even though it might sound daunting to those that aren’t too familiar with baking, is this a… would this be a simple pie to make? ‘Cause it sounds really fancy.Ìý

Ray: Well, it’s simple. I don’t know how to say it without going into details, but we’ll go into that later-Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah…Ìý

Ray: With Kuma?Ìý

Zoe: With Kuma and Patricia as well.Ìý

Ray: But, it’s sweet. It’s simple. Make it ahead of time for parties and if you make a mistake, you always have time to make another one.Ìý

Zoe: That is true, yeah! Not to make you viewers jealous, but I sneaked a little bit of the pie when Ray made it last time. That topping was so light and fluffy, and it was like… What would you call it? A Meringue?Ìý

Ray: Yeah, Meringue.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, gosh! That sounds so fabulous!Ìý

Ray: Now, meringue’s easy, but hard. Because, you have to start it and add sugars gradually, but we’ll get into that later.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. We’ll get into that later. That pie sounds absolutely amazing. So, let’s get to know you a little bit, Ray.

Ray: I was a 1 pound 12 ounce baby, three months early.Ìý

Zoe: Oh my.

Ray: So that’s how I got my vision problems, because the incubator and the pressure. But I lived a good life so far. Except for diabetes. That kinda sucks, but… Been married for 29 years.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, my. Coming on the 30th.Ìý

Ray: Yeah. Just had it April. April was good. Me and my Patricia, as you’ll meet later, we’ve been a good pair. Each helping each other, ups and downs with life, but we’re still not gonna give it up.Ìý

Zoe: Truly. It’s has truly been an inspiration to know you. Could you describe real quick; because you mentioned that you are a diabetic, and also what’s your level of vision loss?

Ray: Well, my vision loss was because of the incubator, glaucoma and cataract and stuff, I lost one eye, but it hasn’t stopped me from riding motorcycles, horses And jumping over in the jetty at Tillamook and stuff like that. I was less restricted when I was younger. Now that I’m older with diabetes, I’m more restricted to vision and stuffÌý

Zoe: Gotcha.Ìý

Ray: And that sucks, but people get old too and then they die.Ìý

Zoe: I mean, it is true. It’s a part of life but, at the same time, it’s about enjoying and maximizing the ride that you’re on, right?

Ray: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: And, knowing all the things that you… I didn’t know that you rode horses.Ìý

Ray: Yeah, I had two horses. I had a Welsh when I was 18, 16, 15.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, wow.Ìý

Ray: “Welsh”, and then a painted pony. I rode bareback in the pasture. One time I rode bareback and the horse started running back towards the barn. And it wasn’t a barn, it was kind of a shed. So, I flipped underneath the horse while it was galloping or running.Ìý

Zoe: Oh!

Ray: And then I thought, “Well, it’s running. I can’t get back up.”. I’m between two front of the front hoofs. So, I was around his neck.

Zoe: Oh, gosh.Ìý

Ray: Underneath the hoofs while the horse was running. And I just said, “Well, do or die. Okay, I’m gonna land here since it’s soft.”. So, I let go, got up, and no damage.

Zoe: Oh, thank goodness…Ìý

Ray: My other friend that was with me was, totally scared and, “Did you get hurt?” and stuff and… No, that’s my life story. I’m lucky. No hurt. No, no problem. Yeah, that was fun.Ìý

Zoe: Fun, true. Scary for sure. Even just to listen makes my blood pump a little bit. But, that’s a really amazing story to hear that, like, you know, you went through-Ìý

Ray: But, I’ve learned that because of my glaucoma and my retina partially detached, riding, I could ride. I can’t gallop. I couldn’t trot, but I could ride. Because of the jarring of the horse.Ìý

Zoe: Oh. Oh, okay, okay.Ìý

Ray: And that’s one thing with people with partial detached retina. Part of it was detached with one- “hair” kinda thing.Ìý

Zoe: I know what you mean. Yeah.Ìý

Ray: So, it was very loose and any jarring, or fighting… no trampolines. I found out when I was in elementary school.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.Ìý

Ray: I couldn’t trampoline either.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Ray: I still did it. I did a lot of things, but…Ìý

Zoe: Hey, we’re kids! When you’re a kid, you gotta; “The world is so big. We gotta do what we can. We gotta live!”.Ìý

Ray: Yeah, it’s definitely lived more than any other person with my situation. Drove motorcycles on 101.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, wowÌý

Ray: At the beach, Rockaway. I drove pickup trucks in the mountains, behind the beach house, and logging roads.

Zoe: Oh, wow.Ìý

Ray: 200 cliff one side, a three-foot ditch on the other side. Luckily there was no logging roads, and they weren’t used much. But, that’s how I learned how to drive and stuff.Ìý

Zoe: That’s quite fabulous indeed. Yeah.Ìý

Ray: More than most people, but I was younger and adventuresome. One thing my dad did, we had motorcycles we’d drive on them log road. There was a six-foot board. We’d go over– My dad would drive over the board on a little 90 CC and would drive over the little river; little stream. No problem! But, he couldn’t drive in the logging roads without falling over and hurting his hand and my motorcycle.

Zoe: Oh, no. Really?Ìý

Ray: He was showing off, but he was way down there. He lost control. But, I tried to do this three-foot board, and I got scared. I couldn’t do it.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, it, it is hard. Overcoming that first leap, it’s ” Oh, my gosh.”Ìý

Ray: Well, no, it’s not a, it’s just a little creek, but still you have to have confidence, and I didn’t have the confidence.

Zoe: True. But, at the same time, it’s a three-foot board and you’re riding a full-on motorcycle over it.Ìý

Ray: Yeah. But I did it kind of, but scared the crap out of me.Ìý

Zoe: Still.Ìý

Ray: Yeah, so I was lucky. I mean, things like that are… We had a good time when I was younger.Ìý

Zoe: That does sound fabulous.Ìý

Ray: And horseback riding on the beaches are one thing I remember.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, gosh, that sounds amazing. Well, lucky, I suppose that’s how a lot of my creations go. I leave it all up to Lady Luck, and I’m like, “You know what? I’ll roll the dice.”. If I’m feeling really basic and I just pull two random cans of soup out, I’ll combine these.”. Sometimes it goes together really well a beef and vegetable soup and some sort of tomato-based or vegetable-based soup. Other times you get chicken sausage gumbo combined with New England clam chowder.Ìý

Ray: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Kuma has never let me hear the end of when I combined those two.

Ray: That’s a combination that I think… You needed rice to go with it or something.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, it was horrible. I ate it anyways, ’cause I was hungry, but when you roll the dice and don’t identify what you’re pulling out of the cabinet and to try and mix together; it becomes a little bit more-Ìý

Ray: Did you have Tucker then, too?

Zoe: Oh, I had Tucker! Trust me. I don’t think he would’ve eaten-Ìý

Ray: Did he eat it?Ìý

Zoe: No, I didn’t wanna give it to him. Didn’t know if there toxic ingredients were there.Ìý

Ray: You know, if the dog don’t eat it; you know it’s bad.Ìý

Zoe: I was pretty sure he wouldn’t eat it. It was bad. ‘Cause the gumbo was kinda watery and then the chowder was all thick. So, I combined it with a spoon. But, didn’t want to combine. That’s what the vibe was and it was horrible.Ìý

Ray: Well, if it filled up your tummy.

Zoe: That is true and, at the end of the day, that’s how I think of some foods. I always tell Kuma, “You want some pizza?”, and they’ll be like, “Sure.”. And, I’ll be, “Okay, here’s some bread, tomato, cheese. Have fun!”.Ìý

Ray: Now if you do that with a- What do you call it? “Baguette”?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Ray: Do that with a baguette. Tomato sauce, cheese, and a baguette, and then some meat or something like that. That makes an easier pizza to make than just a slice bread.Ìý

Zoe: You know what? And you all, podcast listeners, know as well, I’m gonna see if I can surprise Kuma and see what they think about it. ‘Cause, that actually sounds amazing to do.

Ray: And it’s really simple. But, it’s good for one to two people. Just take a French Baguette. Cut it lengthways. And, then put the tomato sauce on it. The Parmesan cheese, three cheeses, whatever you prefer.Ìý

Zoe: Parmesan, feta, and mozzarella sounds good.Ìý

Ray: Yeah. That’s really good. And then put pepperoni or salami… sausage is a good combination. If you like vegetables-Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, vegetables, cheese-Ìý

Ray: onions-

Zoe: Whatever you want, really.Ìý

Ray: … grilled, grilled onions.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh, mushrooms.Ìý

Ray: Mushrooms, peppers, green peppers, and stuff like that would be a real simple “pizza thing” that you could just make up real quick.

Zoe: Yeah, that sounds like a homemade “Bagel Bite”, but with a baguette instead of one of those little bagels. I’m always telling Kuma; “it combines in the stomach at the end of the day”. It’s basically as if you ate a pizza.

Ray: Yeah. It is easier to eat and less messy.Ìý

Zoe: They’re always very exasperated with me. So, I’ll let y’all listeners know what they think of it when I surprise them with it. But, hey! Little recipe for you all. What a treat.Ìý

Ray: Salt and pepper. A little bit of…Ìý

Zoe: garlic, Basil?

Ray: Garlic or Parmesan. Yeah. Flakes of Parmesan or it’s all shredded stuff, so slice stuff.Ìý

Zoe: They’re all gonna melted down. That’s why the feta, mozzarella, and Parmesan sound really good. Even just that by itself, plus a little marinara, but not- it’s like tomato paste.

Ray: You could do… Marinara is really good. You could do marinara, for sure, too. Either one. But, you’ll want it thicker. A little thicker.Ìý

Zoe: Gotcha. Oh, gosh, look at us! A podcast about food, learning to live life and enjoy it, and treat disabilities not as a hindrance.

Ray: Don’t hold back. Do what you can do. Do what you feel comfortable with and grow from there. If you can’t do it, you can’t do it. Do it a way that you can do it with help or with, assistance I know people that’s blind and they ride bikes, They do these bike rides Might be tandem bikes. And then they can ride that way. They might not steer it. Just have a person that can steer the bike, and they ride it behind, and it’s still freedom. That was a thing for me is, when I ride in motorcycles, the freedom of the wind in your hair and the bugs in your teeth and-Ìý

Zoe: Oh, my!Ìý

Ray: Just having that kind of freedom that you don’t get, because you’re so restricted of what you can do. So, go boating, or go canoeing, or kayaking, or something like that. Or, what’s that one that they do- team?Ìý

Zoe: Rafting?Ìý

Ray: No, what’s the one that they do?Ìý

Zoe: “Dragon Boating”!Ìý

Ray: Dragon Boating!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, Dragon Boats!Ìý

Ray: Dragon boating. If you can’t see and can’t do anything, do dragon boats and do it with a team member. IRA group that did dragon boating and stuff on the Willamette; do that. That’s really fun with bunch of people, bunch of blind people, or whatever. Bunch of friends. They become friends.Ìý

Zoe: Aren’t they still doing that?Ìý

Ray: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Isn’t that team- What was it? Lethally Blind?Ìý

Ray: There’s a pink one for, cancer people that they all wear pink, and they’re cancer-Ìý

Zoe: Oh

Ray: survivors.Ìý

Zoe: How wonderful.Ìý

Ray: There’s seven or eight, Dragon boats. They’re just different teams and different groups that do different things and have something in common.Ìý

Zoe: Gosh. And last time I actually went to just to a few of the practices. But, it was so great to meet everyone. And you really meet people from all sorts of walks of life.Ìý

Ray: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: And all sorts of different backgrounds. Back then I was- I think I was only 18. But, yeah. I could meet people as young as me, but there was also there was a lady who was I think 80 at the time, and she was still on the dragon boat team.

Ray: Really? Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.Ìý

Ray: Age old, as long as you do exercise and don’t sit around and on the couch and watching TV and be ate, eat potatoes and-Ìý

Zoe: Oh, granted. She was one of the most energetic and positive people I know, and she’s helped so many people. So, yeah. She’s just awesome.Ìý

Ray: Stay young and healthy and do something with your brain. Or read. I hate reading.Ìý

Zoe: Oh no, you hate reading?Ìý

Ray: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, well. I guess if it’s difficult to read, yeah. But, I don’t know. I read just on my phone or on the computer now. But, there are some really great books. A lot of people around me and myself too have been getting into that Dungeon Crawler Carl series. You’ve been laying down some really great thoughts and philosophies on me. Can you give me just an idea of one big event that kind of describes how you feel about your culinary experience through life, learning how to cook, and, how it’s affected your life? For me, I might say that the way that I would describe my own journey is when I first started learning how to cook when I was doing those Rice-A-Ronis.Ìý

Ray: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: And I was, “Oh, I can just do these in the rice cooker.”. In goes my ingredients, my water, and all my milk and butter. And so by doing that, the milk went everywhere. I destroyed that rice cooker. But, luckily, my roommates are super awesome. So, yeah. I destroyed the rice cooker. I proceeded to destroy the next rice cooker as well. But, our current rice cooker works very well. That’s kinda how I would describe my story is silly, crazy mistakes. But, I do my best. I always try. I learn from them, and I correct them to make the best possible Rice-A-Roni dish that you can make.

Ray: Yeah. One of my people says, “You made the best meatball, slow cooker recipe.” And I said, “What did you put in your recipe?” barbecue sauce and bought, all pre-made, meatballs, and they think it’s the best thing they ever tasted.Ìý

Zoe: Sometimes it’s the simple things, and that’s what that’s one of the goals of this podcast as well, is focusing on the student experience, but also focusing on ama- making amazing, delicious meals from some of the simplest ingredients.Ìý

Ray: Yeah…Ìý

Zoe: ‘Cause you don’t have to break the bank. You don’t have to go and buy a gold-plated steak that you, butter-boiled, gold-plated steak, I think it is?

Ray: I would say, yeah. Chinese or Japanese steaks. Ra- ragu?Ìý

Zoe: “Wagyu”, yeah.Ìý

Ray: “Wagyu”.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Ray: Oh, my God! Those things, steaks, are just to die for!

Zoe: You know what? Those cows… Now, sorry to all you, vegetarians or, non-meat eaters out there, but purely for factual reasons I’m telling this. But yeah, those, Wagyu cows are so- are treated so well. I won’t claim to be an expert on them by any means, but, I did some reading into them and watched a few TV shows about them and it is really fascinating, just the entire industry, how well they treat those cows. Those cows a lot of them have their own “masseuses”? Massage people?Ìý

Ray: “Massage”, yeah, which is-Ìý

Zoe: Yeah! And, they’re very controlled special diet that they feed them, and then the meat that you get from them… Marbled with white and whatnot?Ìý

Ray: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: That’s your steaks.Ìý

Ray: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: The meat that you get from these cows is pink, because there’s no visible lines of fat. That fat is so perfectly marbled with the meat that it gives you the most flavorful, tender, juicy bite ever. Oh, it’s divine!Ìý

Ray: I don’t have those very often.

Zoe: The really good stuff is like $2,000 for, a pound. So, I won’t be having that anytime often either. But, if you can get-

Ray: Well, there’s a store that might sell them-

Zoe: Yeah, there are some other cuts of wagyu that go much less. So, for a pretty special event; a couple hundred dollars for a wagyu steak sounds good.Ìý

Ray: Well, there’s a new Oriental Store, that’s near me on Mall 205, “99 Ranch”.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.

Ray: They have fish there. Did you see it?Ìý

Zoe: I saw them and I saw they have these things called “sashimi”, and those are really… It’s a Chinese sort of- It’s hard to describe. It’s a rice crispy, but with these “big noodle flower” thi- I don’t even know how to describe it. It’s really good. But, yeah. That sounds great. Culinary experience or culinary story, do you have one for us that could describe or give off the vibe of what you make?Ìý

Ray: It’s wonderful when you get old that you forget all those things. You don’t remember them.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, I’m sorry to hear that.Ìý

Ray: But, no. Then you go to the store, “Do you have any great stories?”. “No, I’m too senile.”Ìý

Zoe: This was maybe around the fall of last year. And, this friend of ours, her partner at the time, was out with some sort of pain. And, he wasn’t able to run his food place. She’s super awesome, this friend of-Ìý

Ray: She’ll give you the shirt off her back.

Zoe: Yeah, and she’s so generous so kind. I’m sure she has lots of contacts.Ìý

Ray: He was out for a week.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah?

Ray: Is that right? About a week or so?Ìý

Zoe: It was about a week. But-Ìý

Ray: So, it would really been a loss of money and loss of revenue if he was gone that long.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. And who does she call to help? She called you.Ìý

Ray: And you.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, no, no!

Ray: You helped in other ways in other times.

Zoe: I helped in other ways in other times, yeah. But, at that point in that week, I actually didn’t work, I don’t think…Ìý

Ray: Yeah. No, not that week. It was-Ìý

Zoe: But, running that restaurant and, of all the people that she knew, blind, sighted, she called you, which was just a demonstration from her of how much she respected you and your skills. So, it’s just really cool to see and it’s really inspiring. It’s something that I definitely aspire to as well.Ìý

Ray: It does inspire. But, I would do anything for her. Because, she just seems like she bends over backwards for everybody, all her people that she works with. But I wouldn’t do anything for him.Ìý

Zoe: I gotcha. Yeah…Ìý

Ray: That’s life, and I’m glad to help. I would’ve done it for nothing.Ìý

Zoe: Truly, but-Ìý

Ray: Yeah. I would’ve did it just pure…Ìý

Zoe: This podcast so far, our first few episodes, I focused on Bulgogi Beef. It’s not exactly, ’cause there’s no gochujang in the recipe. But, yeah, to be clear, that first episode’s recipe is not bulgogi beef, but it is inspired by the flavor. You can add gochujang, or other ingredients. Dress it up to your style. But, there’s been, a Mediterranean one pot dish, ham hock and bean stew with well soup with buttermilk biscuits, savory dishes.

Ray: These are like main dishes.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, like main dishes. A goal of this podcast is to not only focus on cooking, how the culinary experience inspires, but also to find these simple, amazing recipes that are delicious, that you can make at home, that are inspired really and that people can make their own. This pie, from what you’ve described to me and from what you said already here on this podcast, it does sound simple. But, so delicious, frozen or chilled, it would make an amazing pie in the summer is what I’m imagining. But, we’ll be focusing- We’ll be, getting into the baking segment later, but to round out this sort of segment, are there any other words of wisdom or any stories or just, anything about your culinary experience or background that you’d like to share?

Ray: Well, I had a lot of– five years of culinary, but I did– my culinary is dishwashing. But, then I always paid attention and that’s the one thing, try to pay attention what’s around you and learn from that. You can learn a lot if you just pay attention and ask a few questions.

Zoe: Yeah, I know one or two YouTube Chefs who have that pretty much exact same story about where they start; lowly beginnings with dishwasher. But, they pay attention. They learn where they can. They want to learn. It’s kind of like that “Ratatouille” story.

Ray: Oh, we can’t sell Ratatouille anymore.

Zoe: Oh, really?Ìý

Ray: They outlawed it.Ìý

Zoe: Wait, what?!Ìý

Ray: The City of Portland outlawed Ratatouille. Now they can’t sell it at restaurants.Ìý

Zoe: Since when?Ìý

Ray: Just recently.Ìý

Zoe: Wait, why though?Ìý

Ray: I don’t know exactly. It’s just really weird. They don’t want restaurants selling that anymore.Ìý

Zoe: That’s really unfortunate.

Ray: Well, you know what Ratatouille is?

Zoe: Oh, I know who Ratatouille is. Yeah, it’s that French, vegetable dish that has that tomato base and all those sorts of vegetables. I really enjoyed the way that they did it in Ratatouille ’cause I’m no culinary expert, but it seemed like he presented his dish in a way kinda differently than how you would expect with the slices. Sort of arranged, if you imagine, a deck of cards. But, you, kinda grip it with your middle finger and your thumb and then tap your finger on the side and then just roll your finger across the table. It was a really interesting slice arrangement and a really interesting arrangement with the sauce, with the garnish. It looked beautiful. It inspired me to try my own Ratatouille and it tasted good. But, I think I just need more practice.Ìý

Ray: That helps too. They do a lot of practicing, a lot of things.

Zoe: Truly. So, would there be any other stories or any other experience or words of wisdom that you’d like to share before we get into our baking segment?Ìý

Ray: Keep practicing. Some people take it 200 times before they get the recipe right, but they don’t give up and that’s the secret; learn from your mistakes and keep plugging away.

Zoe: That’s really profound.Ìý

Ray: Because, if practice makes perfect, and that’s so true with a lot of things, don’t give up with anything you do. If it’s goal of kitchen, or activities, or friends.Ìý

Zoe: Five years as a dishwasher and as a diabetic and with the vision impairment as well. That’s a lot of dedication and especially with the food restrictions being a diabetic. For me, I’m allergic to eggs, and you have observed me crack eggs. Please describe to the, our listeners how good I am at cracking eggs.Ìý

Ray: Well, first we put gloves on you. So, you wouldn’t have that contamination of-

Zoe: Yeah, ’cause I’m allergic, yeah.Ìý

Ray: You’re allergic. And then we put a nice little white apron, and it still came out clean. But, sometimes there was two ways to do it, one on the edge of the bowl or one on the table, and maybe you should switch to the tables and tap on it, and then flip it, and then crack it.Ìý

Zoe: That is true.

Ray: But, then sometimes you just don’t know your own strength.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, I crushed my second egg. I crushed it while trying to break it.Ìý

Ray: So, there’s a happy medium between crack it enough or the edge and not too much power.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. But, hey. Practice makes perfect.Ìý

Ray: But, I’m not letting you go through two cartons of eggs though. You’re not learning from that point.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, no. I gotcha. But, it’s really interesting. ‘Cause, it’s really cool to look at all these restrictions and the way that people, attempt things, learn from them, and make their changes to the recipe as well. Part of this recipe is, instead of using regular sugar. This recipe, that you have, calls for six tablespoons of a monk fruit substitute sugar.Ìý

Ray: Yeah, it’s good for diabetics and it came from a dietician from Providence, a seminar that I went to.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, so that would eliminate so much sugar.

Ray: Not so much sugar, but the artificial stuff, your body can’t break artificial sugars down. It can’t break it down. Then if you read in the ingredients, it’s artificial sugar.

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Ray: So, they get rid of it, but it’s still not good for you. But, that’s another story to the…Ìý

Zoe: True, yeah. But, it’s about making healthy decisions.Ìý

Ray: But, this monk fruit is really good and it’s sugar, but it’s made… I don’t know how it’s made, actually. That’s a good question we should’ve of asked our listeners.

Zoe: Yeah. We’ll definitely get that information, but yeah. I just didn’t even know that was a thing, so it was really cool to hear about that, and it was a really cool edit. ‘Cause, for a lot of people that are like, “how do diabetics enjoy like sweets or pies or whatnot without using all that artificial stuff?”.

Ray: Well, that’s what seems like it’s going towards, the pops are going that way. I can drink more pop; as a “diet pop” than a “regular pop”. But, that’s not true. Because it still adds up. But, it just don’t add up in the same way. People think they can drink more pop or drink diabetic sugars, and diabetic stuff and not be affected. But, they still get affected in a different way.

Zoe: Yeah. I’m really, really excited for this recipe and I just can’t wait to get into this segment. Again, thanks so much for sharing these words of wisdom, these experiences, these stories. I’m sure listeners are going to find this recipe absolutely amazing, and I hope-

Ray: I had a friend doing it.

Zoe: Yeah, and I hope this episode gives comfort to you viewers. It’s something that you can listen to while sipping some hot cocoa by the fireplace. So, with that, I’ll see you in the next segment. Bye.Ìý

Ray: Bye. Nice talking.Ìý

Zoe: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to A Slice of Life. We’re here in the kitchen now, and I’m with Kuma. Unfortunately, our guest hosts Ray and Patricia, weren’t able to make it onto the show today. But instead, we’ll be making you the recipe ourselves with a little added twist from an idea that Kuma had.Ìý

Kuma: Hi, everybody. Happy Sunday that we’re recording.Ìý

Zoe: I think it’s Father’s Day, actually.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah.

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: Happy Sunday, everyone.Ìý

Zoe: Happy Sunday.

Kuma: So, we are making something from Ray and Patricia. It’s called a Lemon Icebox Pie. So, it’s a Lemon Meringue Pie, everyone, with some really nice added supplemental options, I would say. Ray uses monk fruit sugar, which he says he’s diabetic, and it’s a very good sugar to use. It’s safe for diabetics.Ìý

Zoe: That’s right, yeah. Monk fruit sugar is what he used. You at home, if you’re diabetic, you can always choose the best option for you. Monk fruit sugar was something I didn’t even know about. We don’t have that today, so we’re using regular sugar But, at home, definitely feel free to replace it with monk fruit sugar if you like.Ìý

Kuma: So, the ingredients from Ray is one pre-made pie crust. It is suggested using a graham cracker or vanilla wafer pie crust. So, it’s gonna be crumbly.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. You can pick those up easy at WinCo, Fred Meyer- pretty much any grocery store for just a couple bucks. It’s not too bad.Ìý

Kuma: Three eggs that are room temperature.Ìý

Zoe: So, make sure to let them thaw for about an hour after you take them out of the fridge before you make the pie.Ìý

Kuma: Yep. One can of sweetened condensed milk. So, that’s about 14 ounces.

Zoe: You know one of my favorite old desserts, Kuma? It was just literally cold strawberries with condensed milk on top. 14 ounces in this pie, huh? That sounds like it’s gonna be a nice creamy pie.Ìý

Kuma: A third cup of lemon juice. That can be freshly squeezed, which is what Zoe and I are gonna try and go with today.

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: Or that bulk lemon juice that you can buy at the grocery store.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: Usually they have it with just the fresh produce, I believe.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, it’s fresh lemon juice that we’re using today. But, the lemon juice in the bottle, totally fine. That works out well. You can get those smaller bottles, but for this recipe, you probably wanna get one of those big Costco bottles that are a quart or something and it’s wonderful. ‘Cause, lemon juice goes in so many amazing recipes.Ìý

Kuma: And then we’re gonna have that six tablespoons of sugar or sugar supplement.Ìý

Zoe: Yep.Ìý

Kuma: And what I’m doing today is I’m using a pre-made pie crust. I melted some butter so I can bake the pie dough itself for a few minutes beforehand. Because, when I add in the lemon pie filling, that pie mix should already be, or the pie dough should already be halfway cooked-Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.

Kuma: So, it doesn’t just congeal together.Ìý

Zoe: You know what? I never even thought about that. Now, for those at home, I am not good at baking. The only things I can really bake are Frozen pizza. Yeah, but I never even thought about how the bottom of a pie… ‘Cause I’ve tried making pot pies before, and whatnot. When you put that raw dough in the oven with the insides, the bottom can get crispy, but a lot of times all the insides congeal together. So, I didn’t realize that. You just brush the bottom with just a little bit of butter and then halfway cook it in the oven?Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: Perfect.Ìý

Kuma: So, I’ll read the full recipe with all the steps. That way everyone knows it.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Starting from the top.Ìý

Kuma: And then we’ll go into my deviations. What were you saying earlier about exploring while cooking, Zoe?Ìý

Zoe: Oh, it’s good. It’s really good. That’s the spirit of what this podcast is. It’s great to explore, and it’s all about learning and walking through your own journey in life. This podcast we’re here to talk about it. We’re here to provide comfort, show the foibles of everyday mistakes. ‘Cause, there will be mistakes. But, that’s how you learn. And, ultimately, this is about trying new things, finding the things that work for you, and doing the things that really put a smile on your face when you know that it’s worked out. I made a curry the other night, and Kuma and I thought it was 75% of the way there. It was good but not amazing. And, really we came to the conclusion that it was only lacking, realistically, only one thing- two things; fresh chili peppers, and also a spoonful of peanut butter to bind it all together and to provide a little bit more of that nutty flavor in the background. So, it’s the things that you do when you experiment, when you test things out. You find the things that you enjoy the most.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. And you find fun combinations.Ìý

Zoe: Absolutely.Ìý

Kuma: So, from Ray, what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna take those three eggs, right? The room temperature eggs. And you need two bowls. You’re gonna crack each egg individually and separate out the yolk, so that yellow part from the egg white, so that clear part. If you crack an egg yolk, so it’s runny, just get a new egg.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, don’t feel bad about wasting eggs. I’ll be totally honest with you, I’m allergic to eggs, so I never really work with them. So, when I tried cracking eggs, I really tried to practice. But, after cracking like, what was it? Two cartons, I only got two eggs to actually separate.Ìý

Kuma: It takes time. It’s okay.Ìý

Zoe: It takes time and practice, but if you break an egg, don’t worry. Just take that egg save it, put it away. You can use it for something else, or you can make it into a scramble. Very easy.

Kuma: Okay. So, we’ve separated out those three eggs. We’re gonna take those three egg yolks, and with a mixer we’re gonna beat it so it’s all nice and mixed up. Then we’re gonna add the can of condensed milk, so that 14 ounces of sweetened condensed milk- Ooh to the yolks, and we’re gonna mix again. During that process, we’re slowly gonna add a third cup of lemon juice to that yolk and sweetened condensed milk mixture. Once we’re done with that, we’re gonna turn to the actual pie dough itself. Okay?Ìý

Zoe: Now, that’s a simple filling. Will it taste really lemony in the center?Ìý

Kuma: That’s what we’re hoping.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, okay.Ìý

Kuma: So with the pie crust, what we’re gonna do is brush a little bit of butter on your pie pan Just hold on to that. So, just hold on to thatÌý

Zoe: It’s fine.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, you can just leave it right here. You’re gonna melt some butter, and you’re gonna brush it onto the pie pan itself, like on the inside. And then you’re slowly gonna roll out the pie dough to cover the pie tin, okay?Ìý

Zoe: Okay. And that’s to protect the bottom, right? Make sure it doesn’t burn or stick.Ìý

Kuma: And if this is a raw, normal pie dough, take a fork and poke some holes into the bottom of it, okay?Ìý

Zoe: Oh, okay.Ìý

Kuma: And then bake it for five to 10 minutes.Ìý

Zoe: That makes sense. Let anything underneath escape, otherwise it’ll make the bottom, like, bubble up and look weird. That makes sense.Ìý

Kuma: So, once we’re done with that, and we’ve taken our pie dough out of the oven, and we’re letting it cool. We’re gonna pour the yolk mixture into the pie pan.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh.Ìý

Kuma: Yep. Then clean that bowl. Clean the mixing bowl.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.Ìý

Kuma: Pour in the egg whites, and we’re gonna beat the egg whites until it turns very light and fluffy, and that can take a while.

Zoe: Yeah. They call them “stiff peaks”.Ìý

Kuma: Yep. That can take up to 10 minutes, I believe.Ìý

Zoe: You don’t wanna overbeat them, though.Ìý

Kuma: Nope.Ìý

Zoe: But, once they start to turn into those nice stiff and looking a bit white, and they keep their shape, then you know that you’re on the cusp of having them done.

Kuma: Then you’re gonna add the six tablespoons of sugar to the egg whites while it’s beating.Ìý

Zoe: Mm.Ìý

Kuma: Okay? And, then once that is ready, then you pour the egg whites– it’s called a meringue– on top of the pie itself.Ìý

Zoe: Now, that sounds simple, but so delicious.Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm. And, then you’ll bake for seven minutes at 350 degrees or until the topping, that meringue, is lightly browned.

Zoe: Okay. You don’t wanna burn that.Ìý

Kuma: And, then once it’s complete, let it sit at room temperature and then chill it in the fridge or the freezer.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. And then, whenever you’re ready to serve it, you can just take it out of the freezer, thaw it in the fridge, you can take it out, slice into it. You don’t need any whipped cream. That meringue topping is already so light, and fluffy, and sweet. It’s gonna be perfect. Now, that sounds like a simple but really easy amazing pie that you can whip together in half an hour or so, and then just put that in the freezer. Have that ready for a little party. You were telling me that you made some deviations from the recipe; trying your own thing a little bit. What were you wanting to do?Ìý

Kuma: I wanna add mint. So, I’m feeling more of a mint julep.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh!Ìý

Kuma: Like a lemon mint julep pie.Ìý

Zoe: That sounds really good! Lemon and mint do actually go so well together.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: And, you’re using fresh mint leaves, right?Ìý

Kuma: Yep!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I’m trying to think of something that I would do. I don’t know, probably use some sort of mint extract. But, fresh mint just seems like it would work a lot better.

Kuma: You just want fresh mint. Okay. So what I’ve done already is I’ve melted the butter.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh, okay.Ìý

Kuma: I’ve let the pie dough, itself, become room temperature. So, it’s easier to roll out. I have preheated the oven to 350 degrees.Ìý

Zoe: Lovely!

Kuma: I have my pie tin. So, I’m gonna brush the bottom of the pie tin with butter.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, just a little brush.Ìý

Kuma: A little melted butter and if you don’t have a silicon rubber brush, or even a painting- like an unused painting brush, right?Ìý

Zoe: As long as you’re gentle.Ìý

Kuma: You can actually also use paper towels and just pour the butter in and then use a paper towel and swipe it around the pie pan itself.Ìý

Zoe: As long as you keep it clean.

Kuma: But, if you’re gonna use a painting brush that you just get from the arts and crafts store, it needs to be a new one that has never touched paint.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. You keep your food and your art separate.Ìý

Kuma: I am saying this for you, Zoe.Ìý

Zoe: What? Why would I do that?Ìý

Kuma: You never know.Ìý

Zoe: You know what? That’s fair…

Kuma: I am teaching a blind woman how to bake currently!Ìý

Zoe: That is true. So, like- No, I would never do that!Ìý

Kuma: Are you sure?Ìý

Zoe: I think so. You know what? I’ve been wrong before. I’ll trust you!Ìý

Kuma: And you don’t need a whole lot of melted butter either.Ìý

Zoe: It’s just to protect that pie dough, and you’re not trying to “flavor” the pie dough heavily, or anything. Just get that nice crisp outside without burning it or having it stick to the pan.Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: ‘Cause no one wants a slice of pie and all of a sudden you can’t lift the bottom out of the pan.

Kuma: So, I’ve pulled out my pie dough. I’m unfolding it, cause it’s in a-

Zoe: It’s in a roll, right?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. Yeah,Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: Thank you. And, I thought it was room temperature enough. It wasn’t, but that’s okay.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. We’ll work through it.Ìý

Kuma: It’s just these little tiny pieces at the inside.Ìý

Zoe: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Kuma: And I’m slowly setting it down

Zoe: And if you’ve decided to use like a graham cracker crust from the store-Ìý

Kuma: You don’t have to do any of this…Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, you don’t have to do any of this. But, we figured for the lemon mint, sort of center, it would just hold better like, compliment it better. But, a graham cracker like crumbly crust you can skip this step and then move to the part we brush the bottom with butter and then add in the yolks, the yolk mixture. You don’t have to like pre-bake the graham cracker crust.

Kuma: So, I’ve added the pie dough to it-Ìý

Zoe: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Kuma: And, I’m just poking some holes in the bottom of the dough. So, try and give it an even cook.Ìý

Zoe: Mm-hmmÌý

Kuma: Okay. So that’s done. I’m gonna put it in the oven for 10 minutes– 5 to 10 minutes… Okay! Now let’s go over to our eggs!Ìý

Zoe: All right! Let’s get this party started!Ìý

Kuma: Our “eggy-weggies”!Ìý

Zoe: And you can always do this by hand with a good whisk too; if you don’t have a mixer at home. But, it’ll just take a little longer.Ìý

Kuma: So, what I have in front of me is some fresh mint, maybe about a teaspoon or two of fresh mint, minced.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh. Minced.

Kuma: I got three big lemons. What I do with lemons or any citrus, when I need to use them for juice, is I roll them against the counter to knead it to, kinda, be a little bit more pliable.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, you wanna break up those like little pieces in there and, getting them nice and ready to be juiced.Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm. And I got my three eggs. So, what we’re gonna do first is we’re gonna crack those eggs in half, okay?Ìý

Zoe: Any tips for newbies?

Kuma: Try and crack in the center of the egg itself, okay?Ìý

Zoe: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Kuma: It can be a little bit challenging. That’s okay. If you’re having trouble separating out the egg yolks itself; ’cause normally you would go in between each half shell-Ìý

Zoe: Yeah …Ìý

Kuma: to separate the egg whites from the yolk, is dump the entire egg into it, make sure the yolk is not cracked, so it’s leaking. Take an empty water bottle, like a convenience store with that twist top, and suck in that egg yolk into the bottle and put it in a different bowl.Ìý

Zoe: You know what? I never even thought about that. I always thought that was a party trick, but that actually makes a lot of sense.

Kuma: Mm-hmm. All right, ready?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah!

Kuma: And there’s also some accessibility devices, actually, to crack an egg.Ìý

Zoe: That is true, yeah. And whatever you’re looking for, whether you’re just getting into it, like me, or whether or not it’s just a little too difficult and like me, you’re looking for an accessibility device, without vision. It’s a little more difficult, but there are egg cracking devices that you can actually buy very cheap. Tap a button, cracks the egg and then you can split the egg open. It’s still up to you to separate the egg white and the egg yolk. But, hey! Cracking an egg without destroying it is a real victory for me at this point!Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm. So, I got one egg cracked. Now I’m onto the next one.Ìý

Zoe: Delicious.

Kuma: And the more you- Ooh!

Zoe: What happened?

Kuma: I just fully dropped it!Ìý

Zoe: Mistakes happen! We’ll just clean it up!Ìý

Kuma: That was hilarious! The yolk is perfectly intact!Ìý

Zoe: On the floor?!Ìý

Kuma: In my hand. I somehow caught it at the perfect second!

Zoe: You caught the yolk in your hand?!Ìý

Kuma: I caught the yolk at the perfect second! I have a whole egg yolk in my hand!

Zoe: How is – ?

Kuma: I don’t know, but the egg white’s on the floor. Whoops. Oh, can you get… Can I have those paper towels? Yeah, yeah. And can you get me another egg?

Zoe: I will get you another egg. Yeah. I’ll war- I’ll try to warm the other egg real quick! ‘Cause we don’t have a fridge. Oh, I don’t…Ìý

Kuma: That’s so impressive!

Zoe: Those are some reflexes right there!Ìý

Kuma: Oh, oh. I’m good. Oh, my God, that just, that just… °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: Those are some quick s- I can’t believe you caught the yolk- and it didn’t break.Ìý

Kuma: I don’t know! It just happened! Okay. I’ll mop it up… and I’m sure we’ll just give Tucker the extra eggshells and yolk.Ìý

Zoe: Well, yeah, the egg yolk.

Kuma: Oh.Ìý

Zoe: He’s gonna enjoy that!Ìý

Kuma: Oh, we’re good, folks! Okay. I’m gonna crack that third egg.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. I’m doing a quick warm on this egg with my own body. You don’t wanna microwave or anything.Ìý

Kuma: No.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. No, I’m doing, I’m just using my own hands to just warm this egg real quick.Ìý

Kuma: I-Ìý

Zoe: I was, like, shocked.

Kuma: Oh, folks, if only you could have seen that! That was, that was-Ìý

Zoe: We were just talking about experiments and mistakes.Ìý

Kuma: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: Just goes to show that nothing is impossible in the kitchen.Ìý

Kuma: Oh, my God-Ìý

Zoe: I’m just, astounded that you caught the egg yolk. It needs a minute more. I’m just trying to keep it getting nice and room temperature. But, you got that third egg ready, right?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, it’s already cracked. I just need one more set of egg whites. That’s all I need.Ìý

Zoe: We can take the extra egg yolk and, I don’t know, feed that to Tucker or-Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, with the eggshells. Oh, by the way, folks, if you have dogs and if they’re not allergic to chicken or eggs, eggshells and raw eggs, or even cooked eggs, plain cooked eggs, are very good for them.Ìý

Zoe: Yes, they are. Just make sure to grind up those eggshells.Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: Good calcium for them, but you don’t want them to get a spiky piece of eggshell. All right. Give that a go. What do you think?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, that’ll work. Now, I’m just going for the egg whites here.Ìý

Zoe: Perfect! Don’t drop it. Ooh.Ìý

Kuma: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: And why do we want them room temperature before we crack them?Ìý

Kuma: It’s easier to separate them-Ìý

Zoe: That makes sense…Ìý

Kuma: Usually. But, I think it’s also just has to do with how they cook, I guess.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, an even temperature.Ìý

Kuma: Can I give you the eggs for Tucker?

Zoe: Yeah, sure.

Kuma: Okay. Put all that in his bowl.Ìý

Zoe: Fabulous.Ìý

Kuma: I’m gonna wash my hands really good.Ìý

Zoe: That’s a good idea.

Kuma: Do you have more paper towels?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Here, take this one that I’m using right now.Ìý

Kuma: It’s more for the floor, ’cause it’s literally right where I’m standing.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Again, want to keep a clean workstation.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. Oh, I’m gonna have to let them all out.Ìý

Zoe: And egg whites do get sticky. It’s okay, we’ll clean that.

Kuma: Okay! Okay, folks! We’re good. That was a funny mistake that just happened.Ìý

Zoe: You literally managed to catch yourself before the mistake really hit the floor, though.Ìý

Kuma: Don’t ask me. Okay. So, I have the egg yolks. I have the egg whites. I’m gonna juice the lemons now.Ìý

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: And again, we only need a third of a cup. But, what I’m also gonna do is I’m gonna save the lemons-Ìý

Zoe: Okay…Ìý

Kuma: and zest them-Ìý

Zoe: That’s a great idea…Ìý

Kuma: for the rind itself.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. Get more of that authentic lemon flavor in there, not just that lemon juice. Now, I’m super inexperienced. What’s the best way to juice a lemon?Ìý

Kuma: You can do it with your hands.Ìý

Zoe: Well, I’m gonna cut it in half and then squeeze it over. But, that’s kind of what I thought, but just making sure there wasn’t some secret technique.Ìý

Kuma: And you can buy these little mini juicer things-Ìý

Zoe: Oh, I’ve seen those!Ìý

Kuma: But, like, from the store…Ìý

Zoe: seems like an extra step, really. I mean-Ìý

Kuma: That’s what I have.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: It helps catch, um, the-Ìý

Zoe: Oh, the seeds and everything, right?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. And the pulp.Ìý

Zoe: That is true.Ìý

Kuma: So, I’m just doing that.Ìý

Zoe: I don’t know. I think of the pulp as a- whatchama call it? “Happy little accident”?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. But, again, I also rolled the lemons to try and get the juice to come forward easier.

Zoe: True, true, true it’s fabulous and your house is gonna be smelling amazing with that lemon.Ìý

Kuma: Oh, I love the smell of lemon!Ìý

Zoe: Back when I was younger, I think one of the things that we used to do was; we would take an orange peel or, like, a lemon peel and stick it in the fridge for a day after we used it. We’d throw it away afterwards, ’cause you don’t want the whole lemon going bad or anything. But, it would get nice and fragrant.Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: Oh, those are some firm lemons.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, you gotta have a little bit of wrist strength. So, if it’s easier for you to use that pre-made lemon juice for cooking, go for it.Ìý

Zoe: You gotta have a little bit of wrist strength? I’m out.Ìý

Kuma: Oh, yes. You’re a little weak, Zoe.Ìý

Zoe: It’s a chore to carry shopping bags home!

Kuma: I mean, it’s a chore for everyone. Not a chore. But, you have a slightly heavy bag, and it’s not even five pounds and you say it’s heavy.Ìý

Zoe: Then my hand starts tingling. I’m like, “Oh, this is the heaviest bag ever.”. It’s my dream to one day run out of the car and back into the house without carrying any groceries home.

Kuma: It will never happen so long as you live with me.

Zoe: Hey, the message of this podcast is to bring it back to the student experience and to chase your dreams. So, someday I will achieve that dream of running back into the house with Tucker and not carrying any groceries.Ìý

Kuma: We’re doing some very fresh lemon juice. Okay. So, we need a third of a cup.

Zoe: And how much did we get from those three lemons, do you think?Ìý

Kuma: Almost three-quarters.Ìý

Zoe: That’s a lot. We can save the excess-Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm…Ìý

Zoe: and use that for other cooking projects. Yes. See? Again, cooking is so perfect. ‘Cause even if you make mistakes, they turn into inspiration for your next meals. you can take that and on hot days like these you can make actual lemonade. Didn’t you get that one lemonade like a day or two ago and you were so happy, Kuma?Ìý

Kuma: Oh, yeah, I got fresh lemonade from an orchard. It was in a 32 ounce container.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: And, it was just a Tupperware of lemon juice and marionberries and ice.

Zoe: Oh, so good.Ìý

Kuma: Okay. So, we’re adding the egg yolks and the lemon juice.Ìý

Zoe: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Kuma: Right? Yeah. Am I remembering that correctly?Ìý

Zoe: Well, it’s the egg yolks first, I believe. You start to beat them and then, you first add in the condensed milk-Ìý

Kuma: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Zoe: Thank you, and then the lemon juice.Ìý

Kuma: So, I’m gonna start beating the egg yolks, and then I’m gonna pull out the pie dough.

Zoe: °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Kuma: And then I’ll add in the-Ìý

Zoe: Condensed milk?

Kuma: Condensed milk. So, the mixer will be loud.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: So, we’ll pause.Ìý

Zoe: We’ll pause as it’s mixing just so that we don’t hurt lovely viewers’ ears.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Zoe: And, we’re back. The egg yolks were just mixed up in the mixer. We slowly added in our condensed milk. We slowly added in that lovely lemon juice and lemon zest. What does the mixture look like now?Ìý

Kuma: So, it’s a pale yellow in color.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh.Ìý

Kuma: And, kinda, “Jell-O” consistency.Ìý

Zoe: Okay, yeah. ‘Cause, we don’t wanna overbeat it either, and just wanna make sure that you, the viewer, know how it should look like.

Kuma: So, I have that. I’m scraping down the sides, and I’m pouring it into the pie tin, okay?Ìý

Zoe: Oh, delicious. Yeah.

Kuma: ‘Cause I took the pie tin out of the oven.Ìý

Zoe: And it’s a wonderful crust. Came out perfect. Half cooked and not going to stick or congeal together with that inside

Kuma: And I’m just scraping down the bowl so we get everything out.Ìý

Zoe: You know what, Kuma? Aside from Shepherd’s Pie, this is actually the first pie that I’ve ever made with someone.Ìý

Kuma: Really?Ìý

Zoe: In general, yeah! I’ve never made, a fruit pie. Well, I’ve tried, but last time I tried making a fruit pie it- what’s the word? The top collapsed and covered the center.Ìý

Kuma: Oh, yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, and it was bad! The bottom did congeal together with the fruit.Ìý

Kuma: Okay. So, because the pan is still hot, I’m using my spatula.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah.Ìý

Kuma: My silicone spatula, and trying to even it out.Ìý

Zoe: Mm-hmm. Safety first, everyone.

Kuma: The pie dough?Ìý

Zoe: Regarding the heat and everything. Oh, yeah. We don’t wanna burn ourselves.Ìý

Kuma: So, that’s done. So, now what I’m gonna do with the bowl is I’m gonna wash it and then add those three egg whites, start beating it. Then slowly add in those six tablespoons of sugar.Ìý

Zoe: That’s wonderful. Yeah. We’ll come back. ‘Cause again, the mixer’s loud. But, we’ll come back right at the end to describe what it looks like, and to add the egg white and that, that lovely, that’ll be a meringue at that point-Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm…Ìý

Zoe: On top of that pie filling. So, yeah. We’ll be back in just a second.

Kuma: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: All right! So, we’re back. We just whipped together that meringue. We took a look at it, thought it could use a little bit more time, so we whipped it until it was nice and airy. Nice and stiff, nice and airy. Didn’t look like it would fold over really easily. And so I think it’s got the perfect amount of whipping.Ìý

Kuma: So, if you’ve seen Marshmallow Fluff and what it looks like, or marshmallow cream, we’re kinda going for a consistency like that.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh, okay!Ìý

Kuma: So, what I did was I added the egg whites, those three room temperature egg whites, as I was beating. And you have to, if you’re mixing it by hand, you have to beat it by hand very, very, very fast-Ìý

Zoe: Yeah…Ìý

Kuma: for a long while. So, be prepared for that. Slowly add in the sugar. And then I added some of that fresh mint to it. So, kinda like a sugared mint.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, it’s really good.Ìý

Kuma: And what I did to the pie was then I added the rest of that minced mint. ‘Cause, I chopped it up very, very finely, and then the lemon zest just straight on top. Now I’m adding the meringue on top of it.Ìý

Zoe: Delicious. It’s gonna be that nice fluffy cloud layer. And yeah, again, if you don’t have a mixer, just don’t be afraid. It’ll take a little bit longer, but it’ll be fun. You just gotta beat it by hand and then you’ll get a nice creamy finish. So, you’ll be good to go.Ìý

Kuma: Gonna be a weirdo and take a photo.Ìý

Zoe: I think it would be weird not to take a photo of such a delicious pie!

Kuma: Well, I don’t make pies very often.Ìý

Zoe: This is the first actual dessert pie that I’ve did with someone.Ìý

Kuma: I’m just scooping all of that meringue on top, okay? So, I have added the meringue. Kinda looks like a little mound.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh, delicious!Ìý

Kuma: And I’m just patting it, ’cause I want some peaks.

Zoe: Get it looking nice and artistic for the fun look and the fun textures. And, again, those are really fluffy egg whites, so no matter what thickness you use, it’s gonna cook fast. How long do we have it in the oven for?Ìý

Kuma: Only seven minutes.

Zoe: Wow, okay.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah.

Zoe: Well, then once we slide it in, it only takes seven minutes to bake. After that we can take it out and it’ll be tempting to just cut right into that, but don’t do it. Just let it get to about room temp, cool down a little bit. If you put it immediately in the fridge, that’s really bad. It’s really easy for it to develop salmonella, and whatnot. Getting it really hot to really cold really fast. So, just let it cool a bit and then chill it in the fridge for a few hours. Then once that’s ready to go, and once you’re ready to serve it, you can pull it out, grab a slice, and serve. There we go. We’re sliding it right into the oven. We will pull it out, chill it, and taste it. We will tell you how it turned out on our next episode, but until then, please leave comments or your own little stories or feedback about what you think about this pie and this recipe. Until next time! Thanks for joining us on “A Slice of Life”. Thanks to our special guest hosts Ray and Patricia. I’ve been Zoe. This has been Tucker and-Ìý

Kuma: This is Kuma! Have fun baking everyone!

Outro

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .Ìý

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham

Introduction

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk! Let’s Talk! is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, onÌý, and .

Course Tagging

Miri: Hello, everybody! My name is Miri, and today’s episode of Let’s Talk! is an extra special double feature. Starting things off, I’ll be talking to our newest associate, Elianna about the efforts at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ to implement a course tagging system intended to increase accessibility and clarify expectations for a course before signing up for it. Then we’ll hand it over to our friend Anne Verduin, who will be discussing ABLE accounts, what they are, and how they can benefit you with her special guest, Laura Halsey. So make yourself some tea and enjoy today’s episode! Thank you so much for talking to me about this today. Would you start by introducing yourself with your name, pronouns, major, occupation, that sort of thing?Ìý

Elianna: Hello, my name is Elianna. I’m currently a student at PSU. I’m in the Urban and Public Affairs program, and I’m in the Honors College as well. My, my undergraduate thesis is on cooperative housing. I work here as an advocate, and then I do some dog sitting and dog walking. I hope to get a real job once my Medicare timeline starts hitting something, ’cause then I need to work, like, 40 hours a week or something to keep my Medicare. And my pronouns are she/they.Ìý

Miri: Awesome. And by here, do you mean work at PSU or ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½?

Elianna: I work at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½.Ìý

Miri: Awesome. So you are here to talk about your course tagging project that you and others have been working on, correct?Ìý

Elianna: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Miri: So what is course tagging? ‘Cause I know most people have never even heard of that.Ìý

Elianna: So I got the idea — I actually started working for AEDR because of course tagging, so the id- it was my idea, ’cause it’s like as someone with ADHD, I found that there were, like, certain classes just by the way that they were structured and, like, how we used certain materials, I had a much easier time keeping up with classes. I came up –I have a STEM associate’s, so it’s like, a lot of biology, a lot of math, a lot of chemistry. So it’s like there were certain classes that they would have a packet, and I really like this kind of pre-printed packet. It was like the notes were already kind of there, and then you would fill in, and then you could hold on to those notes. And it was so much easier for me to do that rather than being in classes where I had to, like, come up with the notes wholesale. Where I had to, like, look up to the board, look down, like copy down whatever kind of graph or other kind of drawing was on the board and then also fill in notes. And that was just so much more work for me as someone with ADHD, and it made it so much more stressful, and I was like, missing parts of the lecture because I was trying to focus on copying down what was on the board, and that just wasn’t good for me. But then it’s like-Ìý

Miri: It’s a lot of attention that you have to pay to something that is not just learning.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah, so it’s like, but that isn’t really, like, something that’s available on the course description currently. You know, there’s actually a lot of issues with professors not uploading their syllabus. And there is a possibility right now for professors to fill in a course description, but it’s very, like, a blank slate for them, and they wouldn’t even know possibly what even to write in of, like, how to describe their class or how to describe their course in terms of, like, physically being in the course and what kind of students could expect from, like, their routine of being in the class. And coming up in the Gateway to College program, we had this one math teacher where you didn’t really have a choice about what math teacher you had, and she had the packets. And I really loved this teacher, but I was one of the few people who did.Ìý

Miri: Interesting.Ìý

Elianna: Apparently, a lot of other people didn’t really like her. They found her very strict, and they found her very this, that, or the other thing. I didn’t. Maybe it’s because I came up in the South with, you know, more strict teachers of, higher expectation teachers. So it’s like her was nothing to me, but it’s like I genuinely did not find her to be at all a hardass that other people did. And so but even outside of that, there was one girl in my Gateway to College program who really did not gel with the learning style and the teaching style of this class, and she had to take it multiple times and it was like tears multiple times a week from just how much this class stressed her out and just how incompatible it was. And it really is this belief that, you know, I have this belief that education should not be suffering. Like I know in college there really is kind of like this idea of like, “Yeah, college, you’re gonna live off a Cup Noodle and get sick off of living off of Cup Noodle, and then you’re gonna party hard ’cause you worked hard, and it’s gonna make you sick. And then you’re gonna take all these classes, and you’re gonna wanna kill yourself.” And it’s You know, it’s like this kind of like normalization, even valorization of the suffering of getting a higher education, and it’s like that shouldn’t be the thing. Like, that really is something we talk about in disability culture, which is, you know, why should this thing be suffering? Why should this thing, you know, that has barriers for people, this is something we choose to have because of how we choose to set up our societies. So, and then even like not as, as a disabled person, like even if you have like jobs going on, or if you have kids, if you have other kind of like caretaking responsibilities or if you… you know, there’s all sorts of things people could have going on in their lives that’s gonna hinder them from getting an education. So the point of this is that, you know, the tagging project is we’re gonna give, we’re gonna have a shared language list of like terms of descriptors for teachers to then select, and then they don’t have to type up something whole cloth. And then everyone can have a better idea of what to expect when they’re entering, when they’re choosing classes, and then they can hopefully pick something that they eventually learn, “Oh, I like it when a class does this more, and I’m not as happy when a class does that.” And then they can better pick their course loads. Or even if they don’t have a choice, then they can go like, “I know this class is gonna be difficult for me in X, Y, Z reasons, so I should, you know, contact with the teacher, see if I can work out accommodations with them, talk with the disability resource center to make sure I get the accommodations from there. And then I can appropriately workload because I know this is gonna be difficult for me. It’s gonna take more energy. I should not take like four classes or three classes. Maybe I should just take two or focus all my time on this one.” And then that means that people aren’t wasting their time and stressing themselves out, and then it costs money to go to school, so then they’re saving their money as well by choosing something that’s not, that they have more awareness of, and they can better either pick classes that they’re gonna like more or better regulate their time and stress levels.

Miri: Absolutely. And besides people with life things getting in the way, like kids or disability or things- different brains just have different ways of absorbing information. Like I, personally, am horrible at doing busy work homework. I will just not do it. I will get, you know, 98% on tests and then get 20% on homework. But if it’s project-based homework, like something where I get to use my creative side, use problem-solving, come up with my own answers and solutions, it’s great, and I do a great job. And it’s much easier for me. So having project-based classes is vastly preferable to having busywork-based classes, and that would be a very nice thing to know going into a class instead of having to figure out in the first couple weeks.

Elianna: Yeah, and then looking at this from the teacher perspective as well, it means that it’ll be more likely that they’ll get students that work well with their class. And, uh, then they don’t have to worry so much about like, oh, now there’s a student in my class who is drowning in the work or is like really lost or really stressed out. And then it’s like we’re, you know, X many weeks into the term, and there’s only so much time that the student has to turn stuff around or anything like that. So it’s, you know, it helps select for, like, teachers I’m sure find a certain satisfaction from watching a student be challenged and then overcoming that challenge.

Miri: Absolutely.Ìý

Elianna: I don’t imagine teachers like watching students just suffer. And then-Ìý

Miri: One would really hope not, at least.Ìý

Elianna: Well, yeah, one would hope not. And then it also means that students have another way of seeing what a class is going to be like without having to rely on very unreliable r- websites, like Rate My Professor, which can be extremely biased.Ìý

Miri: Yeah, ’cause the people who go on that are people who love the professor or people who really hated the professor.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah. And then it’s, yeah, it’s, you know, then you’re still wondering, like, what is this class gonna be like? What did the bias say for this person? So then it’s, it’s a much more in-house and controlled, and then people, you know, the teacher can represent themselves without having to type up a whole cloth description.

Miri: So how would that be implemented for teachers? Like, both practically in when are they given time and opportunity to do this, and how is it presented to them in a way where they aren’t feeling like they are going to be forced to narrow their own education ability?Ìý

Elianna: Uh, well, it’s like, you know, there’s still in kind of discussion. I’m currently stalled out because of I, I see you have a later question here about Workday. Uh, so it’s like I can’t really do much right now because the people who are doing the shift over to Workday don’t even know what Workday can do in regards to this. And they’re not even gonna meet with me to give me a green light to send out my surveys so then I can then go back and talk to the teachers to get a better idea from them. Yeah, and then it’s allegedly the new, like, course description on Workday is two years away, so.Ìý

Miri: Yeah, the current plan is for the work- the student-facing side of Workday stuff to be, what, what is it, what would that be, 2027 school year? Something like that.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah, 2027, something like that.Ìý

Miri: Which is a long way off.

Elianna: It’s a long way off and not long, not a long way off at all.Ìý

Miri: Yeah.Ìý

Elianna: So it’s, you know, I’m really flexible with it, but the idea is, I guess, we’re gonna have, like, meetings of shared language, then everyone knows what we’re talking about, and then we would, like, let them, like, check off from the list, you know, what they think applies or what they believe would apply. And they can add little blurbs to it to add more description if they want. It’s kind of like giving them a structure that they can work off of and then add caveats or other kind of description if they want, and then another, like, big box I’m thinking that they could type in more information that they would want to put in. And I know that it’s like the professors need to meet certain criteria for getting their syllabus done. And before they can upload it, and that can be one of the barriers to them uploading their syllabus to the course description page.Ìý

Miri: Oh, to make sure that they have actually gone through and filled out the information?

Elianna: Yeah, so it’s like the idea with this is that it’s more flexible and it’s more in their court. And I hope that by making it as easy as possible, it is less of a chore for them, and it really is like, it’s a tool that they can use for their own, you know, autonomy and representation and it becomes something positive for professors. That really is my hope with this, is that this would be mutually beneficial for students and for professors.Ìý

Miri: I agree. And it sounds like it would be, especially given that much autonomy. ‘Cause the… Okay, so the project title involves tagging. So is it going to be a tagging system like what we are familiar with in other softwares like Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, that kind of thing, where you can sort by tags or Archive of Our Own, I guess?

Elianna: Yeah. Well, it’s like that’s… Honestly, I was thinking more like Archive of Our Own when I was thinking of this idea. But it’s like, yeah, it’s… I’m not a software engineer or anything like that, so I can’t really speak to that as well, so I’m really flexible in how we get this thing worked out, just so long as we get it worked out. I know that we currently do have a lot of filters for, like, what day is it on? Is it in person? Is it on campus? Which campus?Ìý

Miri: So you’d be hoping to add things that are, like, filter by heavy homework, more test-oriented, more lecture-oriented, more practice-oriented, that kind of thing?Ìý

Elianna: Yeah, it’s like that would be nice, and then it would really help prevent people from, like, looking at a whole big list of classes that aren’t gonna be applicable to them. Uh, but otherwise, I am flexible on it, where it’s, you know, maybe they filter it out, maybe they don’t, ’cause I… That’s certainly been a frustration of mine looking for classes at PSU and stuff, where it’s like I need something to be in person. Like, I really just cannot do remote learning. Like, I need to be in person talking and working with people to be able to focus.

Miri: Yes. Yeah.Ìý

Elianna: So, and-Ìý

Miri: In-person classes are so much easier for a lot of people.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah. So it’s, you know, and then it’s like, oh, there’s no classes available for the class I’m looking for in person. So it, it really is kind of like, you know, how much runaround is the, are the students gonna have with filtering things out or just kind of going, like, maybe, like, ranked, like, levels of, like, I could tolerate this, or I could, you know, what is going to be in or out of the system for them, and how the, what Workday can do is something I’m, I’m flexible for. Like, I don’t wanna be married to anything and then be, like, so devastated that we can’t do it.Ìý

Miri: Yeah, that’s fair.Ìý

Elianna: I just wanna get, like, labels done at least. Bare minimum, get labels. It’d be nice if we can filter some stuff out, if the people really are like, “I cannot do this class, and I must have, you know, this element in a class.”Ìý

Miri: So the main focus of the project right now is to develop that shared language for teachers to be able to use?Ìý

Elianna: Yeah, I’d like to be able to do that, but I can’t get the green light for putting out my survey that I made before getting the go-ahead from the people at Workday that I, that they can do it or they would be able to do it, so. I have a whole survey. I’m not sure if Silver, who did the art for my posters, uh, is still with us. Uh, thank you, Silver, very much for doing these posters. They’re very pretty. It’s not, you know, I can’t do anything right now. I’m really, I’m stalled out right now until I can get the go-ahead from the people at Workday that I can send out my surveys to know what students would want to know. Because I know I have a lot of blind spots as someone who came up in STEM, and I didn’t have as much of, like, an arts background, or language background or many of the other kind of, like, especially the, like, the trade programs that we have here. Like, there’s so much I don’t know about the experience of others. So it, that’s why I made the survey as well, is that there’s some tags I knew of, but then there’s also, like, oh, other people might wanna put in their ideas into the hat, and then we can see, like, if the tags I’ve already presented have certain levels of popularity.Ìý

Miri: So this will be a public-facing survey, like something that would beÌý

viewable-Ìý

Elianna: Yeah, it’s gonna, like, post it up… oh, sorryÌý

Miri: Oh, uh, it’ll be fillable by students?Ìý

Elianna: Yeah. So it’s like I have posters, I was gonna post them up around the campuses, and then it would go out in, like, our newsletter. I kept trying to remember if it’s still, like, Panther Talk or something like that. Um, and then people could go onto the survey, and they can fill out… like, I already have some tags up there. They can check to go, like, “Oh, this would be nice. Oh, this would be nice.” And then I have, like, a give me your own ideas section at the bottom, so.Ìý

Miri: That’s super cool. I had assumed that it was going to be a survey for teachers of, like, how would you rate yourself? But it being student-faced is extra interesting that you can’t get a thumbs up, green light for it.Ìý

Elianna: So our supervisor, Kayla, is concerned about getting students’ hopes upÌý

Miri: Yeah.

Elianna: By having this survey go out and then having it not come to fruition. So that’s why I can’t send out the student-facing survey.

Miri: Interesting. Yeah. It would be a shame for people to get excited about this and then have someone be like, “Oh, actually, unfortunately, this doesn’t work,” because mysterious back-end things that only four people understand. Interesting. So have you gotten teachers involved in the process so far?Ìý

Elianna: I’ve spoken with some teachers. Um, I have went to the teachers’ union meeting to talk about it with them like, couple summers ago. Uh, and there was… It was overall okay. Uh, there were some concerns about, like, with the shared language of, like, a student signs up for a class hoping that, you know, it’s gonna look like this, but then it looks like something else. So, and that’s kind of the point of, like, trying to have as much shared language as possible and have, like, you know, even if there’s a term, we can have a description, like, pop up still of what this term means. Then, like, really making sure that, you know, we protect our teachers. And then they were also concerned about, like, time or, like, what if a teacher wants to be more experimental and they wanna try things out? Then it’s like, oh, well, then you could still, like, flip it, like, like, say yes to the tag, and then go, “I’m trying this out. I’m flexible on things changing throughout the term,” or something like that. It really is just kind of like giving people the opportunity to represent themselves as easily as possible and giving them a scaffolding to.

Miri: Represent themselves, and also increasing transparency between both teachers and students ’cause the students will be like, “Oh, well, this is exactly what I’m looking for. I will take it with this teacher, and then maybe I’ll take more class with this teacher.”Ìý

Elianna: Yeah.Ìý

Miri: And the teacher will be able to represent themself as, like, “This is how I like to teach classes. I like teaching students who do well with this kind of thing and not who suffer with this kind of thing.”Ìý

Elianna: Yeah, and it’s like I’ve had that experience. It’s like I had a math teacher right after I had my initial teacher at the Gateway to College program, and he was very, like, well-liked. He was, uh, very highly recommended. But he didn’t have the packet, so I was wasting time, like, writing down notes and everything. And I didn’t feel as secure in my grasp of the content of the class as I had with my previous teacher. I still did, I still got an A in the class, and he was a very lovely person.Ìý

Miri: Congratulations.Ìý

Elianna: So it’s not like judging him as a teacher, as a person, it just wasn’t as compatible of, of a fit.

Miri: Yeah. That, that’s the other thing I was thinking about, is worrying that, which apparently the teachers in the union meeting were worrying about too, is worrying about making teachers feel judged. So having them be able to represent themselves instead of going just through, you know, clicking, “Yes, I do this. No, I don’t do that,” is- … uh, uh, I think is a strength to alleviate that concern.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah. It really is just kind of like giving folks like, “Okay, here are like some things students would wanna know beforehand.”Ìý

Elianna: And you can click on this, and you can add whatever you want to that. So then they’re not doing like, you know, running around in the dark whole cloth descriptions. Yeah. And currently there’s like no, uh, most teachers don’t write a description. And there were also some concerns at, at the union meeting that, are they going to be paid for their time that they put into writing their descriptions and selecting things, so…Ìý

Miri: Yeah. I hope so. Teachers deserve to get paid for–Ìý

Elianna: They do, yeah

Miri: –all the work they do. My wife is a teacher, and while her, you know, hourly rate is pretty good, it’s all for classroom work and not all the extra work that you have to do outside the classroom. So when you average it out, the pay ends up being pretty low. She works for the district, not for ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, but that is still a, a, a very valid concern for the union. Okay. So, so currently course descriptions are in the class catalog. Would this be in the same place?Ìý

Elianna: I’m kinda hoping so. So it’s, you know, it would probably be easier to, I don’t know what the software is gonna look like. I’m guessing it might be easier to kinda keep the course catalog, and then it would just be like in there. You know, it is just one of those things of where it’s like I wanna be as flexible as possible with this. I don’t know about software engineering. I really just want whatever, like there are certain hopes that I have, the things I’d like to have, but I’m not like depending on it. I just need to get like the l- the ingredient label. The class ingredient label needs to be in there–

Miri: Yeah, exactly.Ìý

Elianna: –Just somehow, some way.Ìý

Miri: Maximum dose of sodium.Ìý

Elianna: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Miri: Uh, so you mentioned that you went to this meeting a few summers ago. How long have you been working on this project?Ìý

Elianna: Uh, it’s been a while. It really is like with a lot of the projects that I work on, it’s waiting for other people to get back to me. So it’s… Like, and then I also, I wanna try to do this for PSU as well, so I have done some work on creating, like, a PSU thing, but it’s a lot more difficult for me to do stuff on the PSU side because I’m not an official employee. I’m just, like, some person wandering around who’s also a student. Um, but then it would be nice to have, you know, if this tagging project and this system works really well for ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, then whatever, like, university that they go to, whether it’s PSU, OSU, or U of O, then this system can follow them into these different universities and make life easier continuously as people seek their education.

Miri: Yeah, that’d be fantastic.Ìý

Elianna: So it’s, you know, it really is just, like, a lot of waiting on people. So it’s like my main contact for that at PSU was the Associated Students Union. So, like, in the meantime while waiting for Workday to get back to me it’s been, like, “Oh, let me make sure I’m in contact,” or like, “I have the green light and support from the student union. Let me make sure that I have support from these other people,” and that was, like, part of, like, filling out my proposal sheet for Workday, people who work on Workday, and getting that filled out. So that’s all filled out. It really is just kind of like waiting now.Ìý

Miri: Hurry up and wait.Ìý

Elianna: It’s a lot of waiting. And so I have a lot of other projects I’m working on at AEDR to kind of fill that time while I wait for the two years it’s going to take for Workday to finally–Ìý

Miri: It is a very long transition.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah. So I, I imagine my workload’s gonna uptick once Workday figures out, once they get to that point of working on the course catalog page and the sign up and everything like that, so.

Miri: Yeah, when whatever changes to the back end are more concretely in place. That would be very nice. Yeah, I hope so. Is there any more on this that you have to, to share with our wonderful listeners?Ìý

Elianna: Not per se, I don’t think right now. It really is just kind of like, you know, hopefully this thing gets implemented and hopefully we can make education so much less stressful for students. And then teachers will have a greater feeling of agency and a greater feeling of transparency with their classes, and then they can almost like pre-select for students who will thrive in their classes. It’ll make things easier. Like that was one of the things that was brought up, it’s like what if a teacher ends up being judged for being like the mean teacher? And it’s like the teacher I loved was the mean teacher. You will find your students.Ìý

Miri: That’s a good point, yeah.Ìý

Elianna: So yeah, it really is, you know, it really isn’t that difficult I don’t think, but I’m not a software engineer and I’m not the people working on Workday. I don’t know what horrors I have yet to come across moving forward.Ìý

Miri: I, I am a software engineer. That’s what I graduated from ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ in. And man, let me tell you, working, building something from scratch yourself is often so much easier than trying to implement something made by somebody else. Like y- you know, you’re talking about this right now and I’m like, “Oh, this would be s- incredibly easy to do. You would just add a text box here and then you’d have it push to this.” And then I’m like, “Well, in Workday, who knows? You might have to like get out some chalk and some candles, draw a little pentagram on the ground, summon some ancient demon of Workday knowledge.” So I hope the transition does allow for this. Was it something that was impossible in the previous system or was it just-Ìý

Elianna: I don’t know if it was impossible in the previous system. I think part of what did give my tagging system more of a boost was that why don’t we j- ’cause there was complaints about the previous system from some of the people who work in our tech, uh, department. So it’s like, “Oh, why don’t we just wait for the overhaul to do this thing? Then it can be part of the new overhaul instead of spending this time trying to get it to work in our current system which is just gonna go away.”Ìý

Miri: Yeah, that makes sense. Still a shame that it has to take that time to be implemented though. And I hope that this being now shared in a slightly more public forum will spur some people to make sure that this is going to be an option going into the overhaul and all the changes that are gonna be made to our systems.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah, so it’s very-Ìý

Miri: ‘Cause now people can hear about it and people can be like, “Oh, that’s a really cool idea.” Or if someone- Yeah … you know, if someone working on it hasn’t heard about it th- before, they’re like, “Oh yeah, I could probably figure out how to do that in, y’know, a half a work week,” that kind of thing. So-Ìý

Elianna: Well, it’s like I’ve talked with folks who run the YES to College, the Gateway to College Future Connect folks, and they’re really excited about this ’cause they know that they have students in their programs who really have struggled before and who have a lot on their plate already when it comes to getting an education. So, this tagging project would really make it so much easier for their students to get an education. Some of them have had bad experience with education in the past, so this would really significantly reduce their students’ anxiety levels and other issues around getting an education. It is an equity issue. It is an accessibility issue. So, it really is something that I hope can happen for this school and for schools in Oregon and possibly even outside of Oregon. It really is just, “why don’t we do things that make it easier?”. For podcast listeners, I’m not sure if you also know this term, but it’s the “curb cut effect”, where we do something to help disabled people and then it ends up helping so many more people. I had this really excellent teacher for statistics and what he did is that he would record his lecture every day. There was a woman in my class who was also a mom, who worked, and sometimes she would have to be called out of the class to go take care of her kid. But, then this way she could look at the recorded lecture once she was out of the class and keep up with everyone just fine. So, someone in her position where she might have to leave the class sometimes; knowing that there’s a recorded lecture that went over what the information that she needs to keep up with and what the homework’s gonna be about, having that capacity for her to do that makes it so much easier for her to get an education and be a parent.

Miri: Absolutely. We talked about something similar in an episode I made a few months ago with some other teachers including Jesse Mejia, who is a teacher at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½. He said that one of his dream things, to have in all classrooms, is the ability to record good audio and good video for every class so it can be uploaded and hosted and reviewed by people who can’t make it. Because, like you were saying, that is incredibly helpful for people who are a mom and have to go take care of their kid, or have a job, or have a chronic illness and can’t be there very often. Or, if you miss the bus one day and can’t make it to class, then you can just go home and instead of it being a defeat where you are a day behind and calculably an amount of money behind for the hours that you’ve missed, you can just go home and catch up.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah. Then there’s also certain rules about how many classes you can miss, and it’s not even something that’s always in the teacher’s control. I had a former classmate in the Gateway to College program where she was previously in the Gateway to College program, but then she got like appendicitis or had to get some kind of like surgery done.Ìý

Miri: Yeah, yeah.Ìý

Elianna: She had to stay multiple days home in bed rest, but the rule with Gateway to College, at least at that time, was if you miss X number of days you have to leave the program. So, it wasn’t even like she purposefully missed those days, she was just sick and needed bed rest from her surgery for some kind of operation that she had. This way if there were recorded lectures, then someone could still keep up while on bed rest at home.Ìý

Miri: Yeah, I have a friend who had the same kind of thing happen. They had a major surgery, had to be in bed rest for four or five weeks, and some of their professors and their online classes could obviously accommodate to some extent, but they had a teacher at the time who just absolutely refused and was like, “No, I will not send you the extra material. If you are going to miss time. Sucks to be you.”. So, all those resources being available to people remotely is hugely valuable. That is one thing that is tagged on the terrible website of “Rate My Professor”, of like “attendance mandatory”, that kind of thing. ‘Cause there are some classes where there’s just not a lot you can do from home. When I was working in my “microcontrollers class”, you can do a lot of stuff from home, but especially once you’re in the capstone part and everyone’s working together on building the physical things, it just is more difficult. So, if you didn’t know that going into the class and you had a lot of time commitments otherwise, then you would struggle undeservedly. Apparently ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ also has a guitar building class at Sylvania, which I was gonna take and then the pandemic happened, then they shut that down, ’cause obviously that has to be an in-person class. So, having things very clearly tagged as mandatory or– not mandatory, but– attendance strongly recommended to required is just helpful for everybody.Ìý

Elianna: Yeah. And it’s like-Ìý

Miri: And not hard to do…Ìý

Elianna: I wonder like how much this has changed like post-pandemic when everyone was kind of remote and how comfortable professors are doing a recording or helping people be from home considering we had like a massive period of time where that was the only option. So, interesting point of view from that perspective, I guess. It’s like how much have teachers changed from the pandemic in their expectations of behavior and how they run their classes, but I guess that’s beside the point of the tagging project.Ìý

Miri: Yeah. I mean, everything’s intersectional, right? All equity is related to itself in some way or another. Yeah, this is an excellent project, and I hope that it can get some wheels turning and get moving along a little faster, and I hope that there’s things that I, or others, can do to make sure that it happens.Ìý

Elianna: I don’t know if- Should I give my old stats professor, who I loved, a shout-out? His name is Ian Nicolas. I think he usually teaches at Sylvania. So, yeah, if you need to take a stats class, I highly recommend Ian’s stats class. He’s a really cool guy.Ìý

Miri: Yeah. You go, Ian!Ìý

Elianna: And, I loved his class!Ìý

Miri: Nice! That’s awesome! So, yeah, thank you very much for talking to me about this.Ìý

Elianna: And thank you for asking about it.

Miri: Oh, yeah! Of course! Yeah, this was a super interesting conversation to have and a really interesting project to be working on, and I will definitely connect with you sometime in the future to see an update on how it’s going.Ìý

Elianna: Okay! Hope we’ll have an update. We’ll see what happens.

ABLE Accounts

Anne: Hello, and thank you for tuning in to this episode of Let’s Talk!. I’m your host, Anne Verduin. Let’s talk “ABLE Accounts”. What are they? Why would you want one? Why are they important? An “ABLE Account” is a savings account that has a checking account aspect to it that can be obtained through possibly your state or possibly a national bank such as Fifth Third, where you can save money and not have to worry about losing your benefits. Did you know that if you count on government benefits, such as food stamps or Medicaid, if you start saving money and have two thousand dollars or more in assets, the government can, and will, discontinue your benefits, because you have more money than you’re allowed to have and still be on those benefits? Until I needed benefits like that, I didn’t think it mattered. When I started counting on those benefits, I didn’t wanna lose them in the event of some good fortune or finding the right job and having the ability to save money. So, I made the choice to open an ABLE Account. In today’s episode, I sit down with a woman who helped me decide to open my ABLE Account, and we talk about why they’re important for people with disabilities to at least know about and possibly even consider opening one. I hope you’ll find this conversation informative. With me is Laura Halsey, who helped me decide to open my ABLE Account. Hi, Laura! Thank you for being with us today!Ìý

Lara: Thank you for having me! I’m excited!Ìý

Anne: So, can you tell us about yourself and how you’re familiar with ABLE Accounts?Ìý

Lara: Sure, yeah! Currently, I work as an Episcopal Priest for a church here in Portland. And, I know about ABLE accounts because about 10-ish years ago, before I went to seminary, I worked as a caregiver for a place called L’Arche, that is a international federation of homes, that provide care of some kind and intentional community for adults with intellectual disabilities. I lived and worked there for five years, and so I knew about them from that.

Anne: So, you’re pretty familiar from a job previous to you going into the ministry what people with disabilities need and deserve and are getting.Ìý

Lara: Certainly. I know I’m not entirely an expert, but I’m very familiar with the complex reality of navigating the systems when you are on disability of some kind.

Anne: So, what are ABLE accounts, even, for those listeners who are not familiar with it; have never heard of them? Let’s just talk about the definition of the term and what they are.Ìý

Lara: Sure, yeah. The way that I learned about them, as part of my role in L’Arche, I managed the finances of some of what we call core members. For them, what would happen almost every month for a few core members, ’cause so often many people on disability, not exactly high earners in terms of how much income they have.

Anne: They’re low income, you would consider them.Ìý

Lara: Yeah, yeah. But, we did have a few core members who worked as artists and they would make these big art sales, and they’d have a large amount of money, and we would be under pressure to “spend down”, is what we called it, the money that they have.

Anne: Yeah. Because, the way it works is that for people on SSI, SSDI, food stamps, Medicaid; they could lose their benefits if they have over X number of dollars to their name, correct?Ìý

Lara: Yes. They can lose their benefits, which they relied on if, in our case at the time, they had over $2,000 in their account, which is really not that much money.

Anne: You can’t save that-Ìý

Lara: Right…Ìý

Anne: You can’t save… $2,000 is nothing compared to, what you might want to say, graduate from college and make in your job.Ìý

Lara: Sure.Ìý

Anne: You wanna save a nest egg, except if you’ve got $2,500 in assets, it’s within the government’s power to look at that and say, “Uh, you do not qualify for benefits anymore. You have too much money.”.Ìý

Lara: Which quite frankly is ridiculous on a lot of levels. But, not the least of which is what if you… So, you have a windfall one month, but not the next. $2,000 is beneficial money, but it’s not life-changing money. So, if you wanted to save up to go on this lifelong trip you’d hoped to go on, or if you wanted to, um-Ìý

Anne: Have money saved up for the long-term future?

Lara: Yeah. Or, maybe, next month nobody’s buying art and you need a little bit more grocery money. Like-Ìý

Anne: And, then what? You have to start all over again? So, you can try to apply for benefits, which would take longer than you wanna wait to get your money?

Lara: Yes. Yeah.

Anne: Or, more than you can wait to get your money. Because, that process of being… “processed” and “restarted”, I’m sure, is not a quick process.

Lara: Oh, yeah, I can’t… I mean, I haven’t had to go through the process myself. I’ve tried to look into it, and even just trying to figure it out on your own on the internet is so complicated. And, it kinda feels like…Ìý

Anne: So, it’s overwhelming to even say, “They cut my benefits and now I need them again. How do I reapply?”.

Lara: Yes. Yeah, yeah. For sure. So, right when I was working at L’Arche, the people I was working with, who had this money and were spending down. There was a Supreme Court case that essentially said that was unconstitutional. However, the way these things work in reality is not that, like, “Oh, the Supreme Court said this. Suddenly we have the infrastructure. We have the… the way to make it happen.”.Ìý

Anne: It’s like, “we’ll eventually enforce this law when we figure out how.”.Ìý

Lara: Yeah. And, so, from what I understand it; a group of parents, who had children with disabilities, met with their congress people. Came together and came up with this act of, “here’s how you can have a savings account that’s precluded from affecting your benefits.”. And it is less complicated than a trust, for instance. You also generally have to have a lot more money for a trust. Just a disclaimer, I am not a financial person at all. These are just things I learned through experience. So, talk to a financial planner if you’re gonna get that actually set up.Ìý

Anne: Yeah, we definitely… I personally, I won’t speak for Laura, but I personally think that an ABLE Account is a great thing to consider. But, before you make a decision, a conversation with a certified financial planner, which neither of us are, might be a good idea.Ìý

Lara: Well, that’s what you ended up doing. Right? When I brought it up, you talked to a few different- were you able to get it at your bank?Ìý

Anne: Not my bank. What I chose to do was; as I looked at Oregon’s ABLE account documents or resources, I believe what they call the plan booklet. I discovered that if you are not a resident of Oregon, you are not allowed to have an “Oregon-based” ABLE Account.Ìý

Elianna: Oh…

Anne: Well, I know in my- I say “long-term”, but it may be closer to “short-term”. It may be two, three, five years from now…Ìý

Elianna: Mm…Ìý

Anne: I’ll be leaving Oregon and going to a different state. I’ll be moving to a better support system than I expect to have in two, three, four, five years. My support system here is getting older and they’re eventually gonna die on me, or become so ill that they just can’t help me anymore. So, I will not be… staying in Oregon forever. So, I decided let me open it in Illinois to begin with.Ìý

Lara: Oh, yeah…Ìý

Anne: So, it’s definitely not within my bank.Ìý

Lara: Yeah. Okay.

Anne: I probably should have checked to see if… my credit union could have opened an ABLE Account for me, but I don’t know that they can.Ìý

Lara: I didn’t know about the state delineation of it. Um-Ìý

Anne: Well, not all states have that, but we live in a state that does.Ìý

Lara: Interesting. Well, I do know that Oregon, more than other states– not more than all other states– but more than some other states, is more invested in, um-Ìý

Anne: Its own resources?Ìý

Lara: Public health in general. But, yeah. In state-led resources. So…

Anne: Yeah. Well, Illinois is one of those states that says there are some tax incentives and some benefits to having an ABLE Account in Illinois and living in Illinois. But, if you don’t live in Illinois, we’re not gonna say, “You can’t have an ABLE Account here.”.Ìý

Lara: Yeah.Ìý

Anne: So, knowing that, that was my state of residence to come-Ìý

Lara: Yeah.

Anne: And since they don’t have those rules, I said, “Let me open an ABLE Account in Illinois to begin with, so that when it comes time to move, that’s one less thing I have to worry about. How am I gonna close out my Oregon ABLE Account and open an Illinois ABLE Account? No, let’s just open it in the state I know I-”Ìý

Lara: Yeah

Anne: “am going to in the first place.”Ìý

Lara: That makes a lot of sense.Ìý

Anne: So, an ABLE Account is a savings account that you can have several thousand dollars, and is not something that the government can cut your benefits because of.Ìý

Lara: Sure.Ìý

Anne: The initial question was what are ABLE Accounts for people who have never heard of them.

Lara: Yeah. So, it’s an option for other uses. A common use is one of the main impetus behind it; was saving for the ability to retire. That’s not often… Like, h- 401Ks, I think, and IRAs will count against your benefits, but an ABLE Account won’t, so it’s more beneficial in terms of saving for retirement, as everyone should be entitled to do.

Anne: Right. And again, neither Lauren, nor I, have any certification or extensive knowledge on finances, so-Ìý

Lara: Yeah…Ìý

Anne: Check with your financial planner.Ìý

Lara: Most banks have somebody who will… They want you to put your money at their bank, so they will usually work with you to try and figure out how to do that in my experience. I’m personally a bigger fan of credit unions than banks. But, uh-Ìý

Anne: That’s wh- that’s where I bank, at a credit union, and I didn’t ask them if they could, if they have ABLE accounts. Anyway, I think we kinda already answered this. Were ABLE Accounts always available? If not, what did people do?Ìý

Lara: Oh, yeah. In 2014 is when ABLE Accounts were signed into law, which is right about when I started working at L’Arche, actually. But, we still had to… Be mindful of not having a certain amount in the checking account. Most of the core members didn’t have an ABLE account at the time, because it was still fairly new. So, it’s been about, I guess, 12 years, and there’s a lot more infrastructure around it now. Also, probably, a lot more bureaucracy. But, it sounds like you were able to set one up in Illinois without too much difficulty.Ìý

Anne: I personally was. I hope other people can go through it that quickly. There’s a question later on about challenges; but, obviously, they weren’t always available. And, when they didn’t have ABLE accounts, they just had to go through that mess of, “Oh, man, I’ve got too much money. The government pulled my benefits. Well, now I need them again.”. So, now I gotta go through that overwhelming and time-consuming, challenging thing of, “Uh, hello, government. I know I had $3,000 last month, but now I’m down to $300. Can you, like, acknowledge that and help me out?”.Ìý

Lara: Yeah.Ìý

Anne: What a mess.Ìý

Lara: Yeah, for sure. Some of the workarounds before ABLE Accounts included things like trusts or, in the case of one person I knew, a Medical Trust that exclusively paid for them to have premium insurance on top of Medicaid. But, those are a lot more complex to operate and to get-Ìý

Anne: You definitely need a financial planner when you try to do those things.Ìý

Lara: Yes, I think you have to have an executor and then you’re going to a financial planner and a lawyer.Ìý

Anne: And a lawyer, yes! You helped me make the decision to open my ABLE Account. Have you advised other people besides me about ABLE Accounts? I don’t want you to betray anyone’s confidence, but can you tell me anything about how they realized their plan, which did not include an ABLE Account, wasn’t going to work? I think you’ve kind of answered that already.Ìý

Lara: The short answer is “no”. I haven’t really advised anybody about it before. I was just aware of it, because it was coming into being while I was working with people with disabilities. Talking to you was the first time that was, like, relevant information for me to share with someone.Ìý

Anne: But, you, in your job at L’Arche, you opened accounts for people and-Ìý

Lara: Mm, I did not, no.

Anne: Oh, you didn’t? Okay.

Lara: Uh, no. Someone else was responsible for that. Um-Ìý

Anne: You just sort of watched it happen. You watched, uh-Ìý

Lara: Well, I watched the law pass, and I watched the conversation around the rights and needs of people who are receiving some kind of income from disability.Ìý

Anne: Okay. So, you kinda- it was happening while you were there, and you kinda kept your finger on the pulse of it. Because, you were like, “Hey, I work with people who really need this.”.

Lara: Yeah.Ìý

Anne: But, by the time they got theirs, if they got theirs, you weren’t a part of it.Ìý

Lara: No, not the details. Um, that wasn’t really my… We had the benefit of being in a place like L’Arche; is they have their own financial planner and the institution has someone who does the finance stuff. And, I really more managed finances on the individual level of, like, “Hey, this is how much we have to spend this month.”.Ìý

Anne: Or, we have to spend more. They’ve got $2,300. We really need to spend-Ìý

Lara: Or like, what, what, what big purchase do you want?Ìý

Anne: Yeah. Right.Ìý

Lara: Um-Ìý

Anne: What have you always wanted, and it’s always been too expensive for you? Let’s get it for you. ‘Cause, we gotta spend $1,300 here before the government realizes you have $2,300.Ìý

Lara: Right. Right. Exactly. It didn’t happen often, but it did happen often enough for me to be aware that, that was… Uh, a problem… an important metric.Ìý

Anne: Yeah. Have you heard that people have run into challenges trying to open an ABLE Account? And, if so, what might they have been? I think you kinda alluded to this earlier.Ìý

Lara: Yeah. My understanding is that not every state has an ABLE program. But, you are able to, like in your case, there are some international or just some nationally based ABLE programs, or you can open one in another state nearby.

Anne: Yeah, I believe the state that I will be moving to is run by the National ABLE Alliance. So, I don’t think they have their own state ABLE Account Service. Well, I think they do, but it’s not based in Illinois. It’s based in… Wherever the National ABLE Alliance is.Ìý

Lara: So, some banks, from what I understand; I think PNC, Fifth Third, have national ABLE accounts. Like I said, banks want you to give them your money, so they don’t usually make that part very hard. Especially, now, that there has been this… Uh, the- legally the ways have been cleared, so that you’re not being penalized for saving if you do that. So, it sounds like your process went easier. I think being able to; like, for instance, people who don’t have the ability or easy access to computers, that would be a big barrier for a lot of people.

Anne: Or, even if they did have access to a computer, they could get on the internet and If they don’t have a well enough developed mind, due to an intellectual disability; a person with a developmental disability who might have the mind of a 10-year-old when they’re 20… Can that brain comprehend any of this?

Lara: You know, there’s… It’s so difficult to… I mean, there are metrics that professionals use to understand what someone’s perception level is. But, in my experience, you are, kind of, guessing most of the time.Ìý

Anne: Yeah.Ìý

Lara: The people that I worked with; there’s a wide array of different kinds of understanding. So, like, there’s emotional intelligence, there’s… Like, I’m not good at math. Not to diminish the difficulties, but a lot of people can’t get through any of these processes without help. What that help looks like varies and, whether or not, there is comprehension would be pretty difficult to say.

Anne: Even if they understood it, they probably need help and support that they’re doing the right thing, or to make it happen, and-Ìý

Lara: Yeah…Ìý

Anne: if someone doesn’t have a good support system then that could-Ìý

Lara: That certainly that could be a barrier-

Anne: be a problem.Ìý

Lara: Yeah.Ìý

Anne: So, do you have any advice for anyone else considering opening an ABLE Account?

Lara: I just think it’s really important that people know they’re out there, ’cause when I talked to you, you weren’t aware and they’ve been out there for 12 years, and it’s an important resource to have. Personally, took me a while to get around to actually saving for retirement. It’s not something that I think a lot of people, my age and younger… think about very often. And, everybody could benefit from it. Just because, maybe, when you’re 70 or 80, or whatever, you could still work doesn’t mean you should have to.

Anne: Right. There comes a time when you’re getting older, getting a little bit… Your health is getting a little bit more delicate. What are you gonna do? Drop dead at work? Because-Ìý

Lara: Yeah, yeah… Or, do you want your life to be work all the time, you know? Some people have things they wanna do. So, having the ability to save– I think– is an essential resource to have. Even if it’s just a little bit.Ìý

Anne: Personally, my advice to people, who are on benefits and have a disability, is certainly consider opening an ABLE Account. Talk to a financial planner. Talk to someone.Ìý

Lara: Yeah, yeah.

Anne: Consider opening it. I can’t tell you to do it, or not. That’s your decision. But-Ìý

Lara: Yeah…Ìý

Anne: my understanding is, a lot of our listeners are college students. I don’t wanna see you go through all the work of graduating college and then setting out to make your dreams come true, getting that great job that’s in your field, and then all of a sudden you start saving up, you start making money, and the government says, “You know what? You’ve got way too much money for us to continue funding you.” . You count on that health insurance; is that really where you wanna have to spend your money? I mean, you have the right to make that decision. If you’re okay with private pay health insurance, go for it. But, if you would really rather have a place to save money without having to worry about, am I gonna lose my caregiver? Am I gonna lose my Medicaid? Am I gonna lose my food stamps? Am I gonna lose my SSI or SSDI?… Opening an ABLE Account, in my opinion is the best.Ìý

Lara: You have that right and you deserve that right, for sure. The world out there, in particular, in our culture, there is a big gap between when you can get resources and when you have enough money to acquire those resources on your own. And, this is one of the things and there should be many more. But, this is one of the things that can help bridge that gap. We should all have opportunities to save, even if it’s just for something fun.Ìý

Anne: You have a right to decide what you wanna do with your money.Ìý

Lara: Yeah.

Anne: Finally, is there anything that I haven’t asked that you want to make sure that people hear about ABLE Accounts?Ìý

Lara: I mean, look into it. Just do what you can to look into it. Like I said, most banks wanna take your money, so go to a bank and say, “Hey, how can I do this?”. “Fifth Third” and “Fidelity” also will do it. “PNC” are some national banks that have these these savings programs. But, it is worth it.Ìý

Anne: Yeah.Ìý

Lara: And you deserve it!Ìý

Anne: Well, thank you for your time, Lara, and we-Ìý

Lara: Thank you.

Anne: we look forward to it helping a lot of people, as they look at their futures, and realize that they may well end up with more money than the government wants them to have. Well, it’s not the government’s decision, it’s yours. So, yeah…Ìý

Lara: Well, the government has-

Anne: The government has the right to make that decision if you have a lot of assets, but this is why, I believe, you should consider putting those assets in a place where you can’t end up in that situation. Like an ABLE account, or a trust or-Ìý

Lara: For sure.

Anne: The way for us to protect our autonomy around what we do with our money is; consider an ABLE account, consider some kind of trust. Because, even if they are based at a national bank versus a state level; all states have an ABLE Account program of some kind. So-Ìý

Lara: Not all of them do. There’s at least 10 that don’t have their own ABLE Program. So, if you’re in one of those states, you can access the national options. But, most states do have their own program as well. So, you can do a local version if you want. I know I like to bank local, so…

Anne: All right. Well, thanks again, and it’s been great talking to you about this.Ìý

Lara: Thank you.

Outro

Kylo: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resources Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .

Episode Transcript

Transcript edited by Hannah “Asher” Sham and Miri Newman

 

Show Intro and Disclaimer

Kylo: You’re listening to Let’s Talk!. Let’s Talk! Is a digital space for students at ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ experiencing disabilities to share their perspectives, ideas, and worldviews in an inclusive and accessible environment. The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Foundation, or our community partners. We broadcast on our home website, , on Spotify, on , and .

Meet the Hosts

Zoe: Hi, everyone! My name’s Zoe, and welcome to the third episode of A Slice of Life! Today, I’ve got guest hosting with us again, Kuma, because they’re going to help introduce a new miniseries on Crockpot Meals. Kuma’s taught me everything I know about Crockpot meals. And with that, I’ll let them just explain a little bit about what a Crockpot is.Ìý

Kuma: Hi, I’m Kuma. So, Crock-Pots are a really great kitchen appliance that involves slow-cooking something all day long, even if you’re out and about. The nice thing about this is you can plug it in and they typically only have low or high settings. So, it’s really easy just to keep it going all day long, especially if you’re a really busy person like I am. There are different Crock-Pots that allow for multiple different settings as well, which is really cool. But, a Crock-Pot is just a really great modern invention for people that wanna slow-cook meals all day long if they don’t have the time to be at home all day. In my family, we did a lot of Sunday Roasts and stuff like that. Sunday Roasts are typically done in a giant stew pot that sits all day long. You boil it for a little bit, and then you bake it at a really low temperature. So, a Crock-Pot is kind of a nice bridge between that onto just like all-day cooking?Ìý

Today’s Crockpot Recipe

Zoe: That’s wonderful. I’m really glad to hear that. Now, before you started teaching me cooking, cooking safety, and kitchen appliances, I didn’t even know what a Crockpot was. So, what kind of meals can we make in the Crockpot, and what are we making today?

Kuma: You can do a lot of things in a Crockpot. I personally just love doing roasts in Crockpots. I know a lot of people who do stews. You can do braised meat. I’ve heard of some people doing ribs, as well. I’ve heard of other people doing chicken and dumpling soup, or rice dishes even.

Zoe: That is true and, I have to say, the last time you made pot roast, you left it slow-cooking for an entire day and, gosh, that meat fell right off the bone, didn’t it?Ìý

Kuma: It did! Yes! So, today what we’ve done is something really simple that I grew up on. It’s a 13 bean mix with pork haunches. So, pork-Ìý

Zoe: Ham hocks?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, ham hocks. Wow, thank you! I added onion, bell pepper, a chili pepper, and then some Swiss Chard in there, and then also some cumin, bay leaf, coriander, salt and pepper, oregano, and a splash of lemon juice.Ìý

Zoe: Now, all those ingredients; you can find the recipe and list of ingredients below on the same web-page or the page that you’re viewing this episode on. But, it seems so difficult. All those ingredients, all those seasonings. Once you prep all those ingredients, what do you do then?Ìý

Kuma: Oh, you just put it in the pot. You add water.

Zoe: It’s that easy?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. I love adding some extra bouillon base in there. I forgot garlic. Add garlic too. I use bouillon base. I find it gives a bit of a more earthy flavor and then the bay leaf really just enhances that. The lemon juice, that acidity, really just helps those flavors pop even more.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah! I was wondering, ’cause usually you have a little bit of sour in things like cocktails or in noodle dishes, like Pad Thai. But, how does the sour contribute to the soup here? I imagine it’s sort of similar to being like a tomato, where it accentuates the sweet and the savory as well.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, it does. So, the Swiss chard is typically a, pretty savory green.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, that is true.Ìý

Kuma: So, having a bit of lemon juice in there can help flavors like that come out. Especially with bell peppers also being slightly sweet in general. It’s a good enhancement.Ìý

Zoe: And this lemon juice container that we got; it’s like, two quarts, we got at Costco. How much did we get it for?

Kuma: I don’t remember…Ìý

Zoe: Oh, gosh. I think it was only six bucks at the time. It’s lasted a really long time, so it’s very economical. If you wanna splash up your meals; just a little bit of lemon juice really helps to bring out the sweetness, the savory. It’s so good!Ìý

Kuma: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Zoe: So, you’ve loaded all your ingredients into the slow cooker, stirred in your seasonings, your water, your bouillon base, and you’ve just started it at low heat. Is it just as simple as that?

Kuma: Yep.Ìý

Zoe: Okay. Well-Ìý

Kuma: So, a low heat cook is good for, I would say, eight to 16 hours of cooking.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh!Ìý

Kuma: High heat would be four hours, or less.Ìý

Zoe: Well, it’s just as easy as that. So, we’ve got our cooker here. How long has this soup been in the Crockpot and cooking?Ìý

Kuma: Since 6:30 this morning.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, and it’s around…

Kuma: 7:00 PM.

Zoe: Oh, it’s 7:00? So, it’s been 12 and a half hours! I bet that meat is gonna fall right off the bone. If you lift the lid, how does it smell? And, what’s the meat like?Ìý

Kuma: Well, I need a spoon for that!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, it’s always good to taste your food so you can adjust your seasonings.Ìý

Kuma: Ooh! Okay, okay! It’s nice and beany? It’s nice and beany. The ham hock has definitely fallen off the bone and, the nice part too is, there’s little bits of fat, still. So, it’s slowly simmering into that broth, so it’s gonna add just a touch of pork fat sweetness to it.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, that flavor, that lovely pork flavor!

Kuma: Yeah. So, let’s see.Ìý

Zoe: If you’re worried about the fat, you can always skim that off too, off the surface and whatnot. How is it? How does it taste?Ìý

Kuma: I feel like it could use a little bit more saltÌý

Zoe: Perfect. That’s what tasting and seasonings are for.Ìý

Kuma: Can you give me the salt and pepper, please?

Zoe: Oh, 100%. We got us here, nothing too crazy, just a simple salt shaker and pepper grinder. But, if you have these seasonings, you can just, you can really spice up any dish. But, I don’t have to tell you that.Ìý

Kuma: Okay. Oh, that’s much better. You wanna try it?Ìý

Zoe: Sure!Ìý

Kuma: Okay.

Zoe: Oh! You can really taste the pork. It’s got that earthiness from the bay leaf and the beans. The lemon juice really helps balance out the flavors. That is a fantastic soup! So, as we wait for this to finish simmering and cooling down; this could really use a side!

Kuma: It could!Ìý

Making the Buttermilk Biscuits

Zoe: I mean, the Crockpot was just so simple. You toss everything in and we slow cooked it for 12 and a half hours. We have the meal and we didn’t even invest too much effort into it! What kind of side do you think would go well with this, though?Ìý

Kuma: Well, if we’re going to Kuma’s childhood; Buttermilk Biscuits.Ìý

Zoe: I’ve always thought Buttermilk Biscuits were really hard to make. I tried making biscuits and gravy once, and it turned out horrible!Ìý

Kuma: Well, did you use store-bought biscuits?Ìý

Zoe: I did not. Oh. I tried making my own biscuits, and they came out flat as a pancake.Ìý

Kuma: Do you know how to bake?Ìý

Zoe: Mostly only what you’ve taught me.Ìý

Kuma: Okay! So, nothing wrong with store-bought biscuits.Ìý

Zoe: That is true.Ìý

Kuma: That is true. I love them. They’re so soft and fluffy. I think people find the gravy part to be the part that is the most challenging, and it’s really the biscuits if you’re going for making everything from scratch.

Zoe: Ah. Um- There’s a real big difference in a mediocre biscuit and a flaky biscuit that just blows your mind.Ìý

Kuma: So, Buttermilk Biscuits are really easy to make, at least in my opinion.Ìý

Zoe: You sure about that?Ìý

Kuma: Yes! You’re talking to the baker in the household. I will say a piece of information that I really appreciate having, and always will share, is that you can actually buy powdered Buttermilk.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. You can buy powdered Buttermilk. Because in stores they typically only sell buttermilk in, uh-

Zoe: In the cartons.

Kuma: Yeah. “In the quart”?Ìý

Zoe: “By the quart”, yeah.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, they don’t do anything like a pint or anything less than that. They only do quarts. So, you have a whole bunch of buttermilk then that’s gonna go bad.Ìý

Zoe: That’s true, yeah…

Kuma: So, what are you gonna do with it? You’re just gonna make a whole bunch of biscuits? Not everyone wants biscuits all the time. It’s whatever. So, I use this brand called The Sacco Pantry, and it’s Cultured Buttermilk Blend.

Zoe: Ooh!Ìý

Kuma: And, it’s specified specifically for cooking and baking. Now, the thing with this is after you open it, you need to store it in the fridge.Ìý

Zoe: That is true.Ìý

Kuma: So, I’ve already prepped it. That goes back in the fridge. So, for buttermilk biscuits we need three-quarters liquid cup, buttermilk. Not a dry measuring cup. You need a liquid measuring cup.Ìý

Zoe: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Kuma: You need two cups all-purpose flour, two teaspoons baking powder, half a teaspoon baking soda, a little bit of sugar, seven tablespoons of cold butter. Not frozen, cold. So, refrigerated.Ìý

Zoe: Now, first of all, that sounds like a lot of butter. But, second, why should it be cold and not frozen or room temperature?Ìý

Kuma: So, frozen, it’s not actually gonna curl into the pea shape nodules that we want. By having it refrigerated and cold, it’s still malleable in our fingertips. Which is really important. So we’ll get more product dispersing throughout the biscuits. If you had it room temperature, it’s just gonna melt.Ìý

Zoe: Gotcha.Ìý

Kuma: And that’s not what we want for Buttermilk Biscuits.

Zoe: These ingredients and the recipe can be found on this same page where you’re viewing the episode. But, the type of butter; I guess, I will leave that up to you. Because, Kuma and I like to use a very specific kind of butter!Ìý

Kuma: Yes. Okay, so what we’re gonna do is you’re gonna take a mixing bowl. I would say for any bread product you are making; whether it be cake, whether it’s biscuits, bread, bagels, all your dry ingredients should be sieved through first into the mixing bowl.Ìý

Zoe: Now, why would you sift all those ingredients into the mixing bowl?Ìý

Kuma: It removes the clumps. So, say you bought donuts at the store, and you’re very excited about these donuts, and you bite into a donut that you really were anticipating, and you just get a mouthful of pure flour.Ìý

Zoe: Ugh! That’s horrible!Ìý

Kuma: Just pure flour in your donut. But, everything else is fine. You just bit into a spot with pure flour. That’s what we don’t want to happen.Ìý

Zoe: Ah! So, by sifting it we avoid things like that.Ìý

Kuma: Yes. So, a sift has a mesh screen on it as well. It’s really nice to use them. I have a really basic one that I bought from Safeway years ago that I use. I use it for all my baking. So, any sugar, flour, if it’s going into a huge dry mix, I’m using the sieve.Ìý

Zoe: And you can use it for so many other things too. Draining vegetables, pasta. A very simple one is cheap, easy to buy, and you can take it home and use it for everything, basically.Ìý

Kuma: Yep!Ìý

Zoe: That’s a lot of what the podcast is about. Simple, delicious meals at a very affordable price that you can make at home.Ìý

Kuma: Okay, so we’re pouring in the flour. One cup. Two cup. Now leave the measuring spoon in the flour container, ’cause we’re gonna need a little bit more later on when we roll out the dough.Ìý

Zoe: Now, here’s a question for you. I have a friend who, despite trying her best to make like a bread on a bread show, has always been really experimental. So, she uses things like cake flour or mixing in whole wheat flour. What are all these other “flours” and why would we use “all purpose” rather than those flours in this specific biscuit. Because, her bread has been not great recently.Ìý

Kuma: Oh, I wish you could see the look on my face right now. So, it has to do with the gluten and protein content within the flour itself. All purpose flour has a pretty solid baseline on the protein, in the flour itself. Meaning you can use it for a lot of different things. If you want cake flour; I believe it has less protein in it. That’s specifically for if you’re making cakes. There’s pastry flour as well. There’s bread flour, which I always go for when I’m making a loaf of bread. Because, I believe it has a higher protein content in it. Whole wheat flour has a very short shelf life, as well. But, it has a very particular use, and that’s if you’re making sourdough starter, actually.

Zoe: Oh, I see!

Kuma: Or if you wanna make whole wheat bread. It’s best to keep that refrigerated, or in the freezer before you use it and after you use it. But, I would say your friend should stop.Ìý

Zoe: They should. Yeah, we’ve been trying to tell her to stop, but she doesn’t listen!Ìý

Kuma: Well, that is her prerogative then. I would say, though, mixing cake flour and whole wheat flour is a very bad idea.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. As evidenced by her many failed attempts.Ìý

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re adding in the baking powder. So, that’s two teaspoons.Ìý

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: There we go. Then we’re gonna be adding in the baking soda, which is half a teaspoon. Then the sugar, which is a teaspoon.Ìý

Zoe: And these are all easy, simple ingredients that you can get and store at home.Ìý

Kuma: Yep! Keep them in bulk.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah! Just like a run to Costco or the chef store, you’re set.Ìý

Kuma: Yep. Now we’re sieving those dry ingredients into our flour.

Zoe: Okay. Okay. Oh, yeah, getting those clumps out and removing the impurities. For all you listening, for context, Kuma’s been my guide, cooking role model, and teacher for a while and around here; I don’t really know anyone outside of professional bakers really that can rival Kuma’s bread making. Kuma’s bread baking skills are legendary around here!Ìý

Kuma: You know, I still have a lot to learn.Ìý

Zoe: See, that’s the mark of a true bread lover, though! Because, no matter what, there’s always more to learn.Ìý

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re adding in the butter. So, slice up your butter. We need the seven tablespoons of cold butter. You slice it up, ’cause we’re gonna be working with one tablespoon at a time.Ìý

Zoe: Working it into that mixture. °¿°ì²¹²â.Ìý

Kuma: Yes. Don’t be afraid to get your hands dirty when it comes to baking, unless it’s a cake. You’re probably gonna be getting your hands dirty.Ìý

Zoe: Now, here’s the thing, though. If you’ve never kneaded dough or you’ve never really gotten your hands in there. I tell you, the first time I kneaded dough for bread, it was magical. It felt almost like the dough was alive.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, that’s the point! So, drop a tablespoon of butter into your flour and you’re gonna be pinching it in between your fingertips, okay? So, you’re rubbing your fingertips together, and it’s gonna slowly break up.Ìý

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: You’re gonna do that until you’re all finished with the butter, so all seven tablespoons are in the dough itself.Ìý

Zoe: Okay.

Kuma: You’ll find that the dough, in and of itself, kind of becomes a little bit more congealed together. Maybe a little bit darker in color by just a shade.Ìý

Zoe: I see. I see.

Kuma: Tablespoon three.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh, very nice. When you’re working with these mixtures, really use your eyes and use your sense of touch to work it in because even without vision, even without the sense of smell for me, even just going by touch; master those skills. Master feeling how the mixture should feel.

Kuma: Okay, tablespoon four. You want it to be cold butter. Refrigerated butter. Otherwise, it’s gonna melt too quickly.Ìý

Zoe: Now, if it melts too quickly, what will that do to the biscuits? I can imagine-Ìý

Kuma: It wouldn’t make it fluffy.Ìý

Zoe: Ah!… That’s probably what happened to me then! I remember using room temperature butter that I got last time.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, don’t do that. In some recipes it is great to be using room temperature butter, or sometimes even melted butter. It really depends on the recipe that you’re following. Okay. Now, I will say, baking is more of a science than an art. Okay, tablespoon five of butter. So, you need to be very precise in baking. I would say follow the recipe for baking as closely as possible until you get a hang in the kitchen and you feel really confident in your skills.

Zoe: Now that makes a whole lot of sense. For me, the lesson especially has to be that even though things taste good together, that doesn’t always mean that the flavor profiles match. Like this soup here is so simple but so delicious. After I left home and I was on my own, didn’t know what to do, striking it out in the world for the first time really, this was actually the first meal that Kuma served to me and offered to me, after we had first met. So, I look at this meal with a lot of nostalgia. It was so warm, comforting, and just absolutely delicious!Ìý

Kuma: Okay, now we’re on tablespoon six. Also, yes, this was the first meal I gave you, and I thought you were-Ìý

Zoe: I think I cried!Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, I thought you were a little bit crazy when you started crying!

Zoe: Listen! Good food is close to the heart!Ìý

Kuma: Bear in mind, we both know we have very different upbringings when it comes to food and everything. But, for me this is peak childhood. This is poor kid meal that we have, and you don’t even need to use ham hocks. You can use stew meat-Ìý

Zoe: Oh, yeah…Ìý

Kuma: chuck roast, even. Well, stew meat is just chuck roast chopped up.Ìý

Zoe: Weren’t we thinking about beef shank, or something else this time?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, beef shank, yeah! You can use beef shank, too!Ìý

Zoe: What about like chicken breast or like maybe even chicken tenderloins or thighs?

Kuma: Yeah, as long as you chop it up. You can totally use the bones in there if you wanna add a little bit of extra flavor profile.Ìý

Zoe: Some of the, like nutrition from the bones.Ìý

Kuma: Turkey leg.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, yeah, turkey leg! That’s true!Ìý

Kuma: Giblets…

Zoe: You can slow cook the bones afterwards to make like a stock as well. If you’re vegetarian that’s still no problem at all. You can remove the meat, add in substitutes. Because, at the end of the day the only thing that was non-vegetarian was just the meat.Ìý

Kuma: Okay, now I’ve added tablespoon seven. So, it’s a little bit more crumbly now. But, it’s still holding together.Ìý

Zoe: Ah, I see. What does it mean if it’s crumbly, but starting to like fall apart?Ìý

Kuma: Well, that’s the thing. With buttermilk biscuits that’s kind of how you want the dough to be, with the dry ingredients, before you add in the buttermilk.Ìý

Zoe: Ah, gotcha!Ìý

Kuma: If that makes sense?

Zoe: Yeah, ’cause I think another thing too was that I overworked my dough last time and I used the room temperature, thawed butter. So, I think that those were the two primary things contributing to why these turned out so bad!

Kuma: Yeah, I would say, again, just follow the recipe as closely as possible until you actually feel confident in what you’re doing.Ìý

Zoe: That is true. To any new kneaders of dough out there, it is good to knead the dough well, but definitely don’t overwork it, otherwise you start to break down the gluten in the dough, and it turns out just yucky and flat.Ìý

Kuma: Yep!Ìý

Zoe: So, work it well, but don’t work it too hard!Ìý

Kuma: Exactly! Okay. So, now we have it all ready. Now we’re gonna add in the Buttermilk. Remember, I prepped this earlier. So, if you’re using fresh buttermilk, go ahead. We only need a three-quarters cup Buttermilk. Pour that into the dough. Well, the dry ingredients, that has the butter in it. Now, we’re gonna mix it all together into a soggy dough. This is where you’re getting your hands dirty!

Zoe: Does this recipe use eggs?Ìý

Kuma: Nope!Ìý

Zoe: Oh, wow. That’s a plus for all you people like me who are allergic to eggs out there!Ìý

Kuma: Now, your hands are gonna get really dirty.Ìý

Zoe: Yes, they are!Ìý

Kuma: That’s perfectly okay. Don’t be afraid of it. I promise you it’s fine.Ìý

Zoe: This is cooking. If your hands aren’t getting dirty, you’re doing it wrong! Now granted, a clean workstation and do your best to keep things tidy.Ìý

Kuma: Could you get me a knife real quick?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, sure

Kuma: Scrape down my fingers.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, okay. Let me get you- This one’s nice and dull.Ìý

Kuma: No, it is not!Ìý

Zoe: Not this one? Okay…Ìý

Kuma: No! That’s a kitchen block knife, to scrape down my fingers?

Zoe: Oh, you’re scraping down your fingers? Oh, I’m sorry. Here, let me get you like this-Ìý

Kuma: Whoa!

Zoe: Let me get you a spoon. Why would you ask for a knife?!

Kuma: ‘Cause the knife works just fine! Oh, my God, it almost had me!Ìý

Zoe: Sorry, I thought you were scraping down something else. I didn’t realize that you were scraping down your fingers. Then I proceed to hand you like this foot-long kitchen knife!Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. That’s a good way of hurting yourself in the kitchen, okay? Don’t do that.Ìý

Zoe: Kitchen safety, everyone! Make sure that you’re careful with your utensils, and especially if you’re going to try this recipe. Make sure your slow cooker is somewhere where it’s safe. It can’t easily be exposed to water, it can’t cause any fires. ‘Cause safety first, everyone!

Kuma: Goodness, almost had me!Ìý

Zoe: I did almost have you- …

Kuma: Chop off my fingers!

Zoe: I’m sorry! I’m sorry! I’m sorry! But, yeah, flavor profiles and good combinations! Even if it’s simple, as long as the flavor profiles really connect, it means that it’s gonna be absolutely delicious.Ìý

Kuma: Do you wanna try my weird trick for the dough?

Zoe: No, not right now. I’m not encouraging students to…Ìý

Kuma: Okay, okay, okay. Okay, fine! We’ll cut that part out!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, we cut that part out. Sorry, I don’t wanna encourage students to do so!Ìý

Kuma: We can all be weird together!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, Kuma has this odd little trick the way that they test dough and-Ìý

Kuma: It works out perfect! Okay?! Every time!Ìý

Zoe: They taste the dough!Ìý

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re pouring some flour onto our workbench.Ìý

Zoe: Okay!Ìý

Kuma: All-purpose flour. We are plopping the dough straight on there.Ìý

Zoe: And, your workspace is just a counter, right? So, you’re just pouring it on the counter?Ìý

Kuma: I put it on a cutting board.

Zoe: Ah, gotcha! Yeah, ’cause I know people do it on a counter, a clean cutting board. If you’re doing it on a surface, like your counter, then make sure you sanitize it well.Ìý

Kuma: Yep. Okay, so now we’re gonna slowly be pressing the dough down. It’s still gonna be a bit soggy. Which is totally okay. So, think of it as like a half solid paste. We’re not gonna overwork it too much, but we still want it to be like a solid thing. So, that’s why I said keep the flour out. ‘Cause we still want this to hold its shape.

Zoe: Ham Hock and Green Soup plus Buttermilk Biscuits. So simple, but so delicious. Sometimes the simplest things are the best! It’s the reason why everyone loves their barbecue chicken pizza! I would tell y’all the kind of pizza I ordered yesterday, but Kuma can’t cover their ears and also I’m pretty sure they would hate me for telling y’all.

Kuma: Maybe we should not take you to any buffets or anything like that.Ìý

Zoe: That’s probably for the best. Last time I went to a Chinese Buffet, I made this amazing smorgasbord of all sorts of vegetables, meats, and topped it all off with chocolate and tapioca puddings. Oh! And a banana with red sauce on top, with strawberry sauce. So, it was kind of like a meal, dessert all in one. It was like-Ìý

Kuma: That sounds-Ìý

Zoe: It was like awful benefits …Ìý

Kuma: That sounds like a stomach ache waiting to happen.Ìý

Zoe: No regrets!Ìý

Kuma: Okay. Well, that’s you… I’m sure you had some regrets.Ìý

Zoe: The only thing I regretted was not putting more of that delicious teriyaki chicken on there.

Kuma: Okay, so now the dough is starting to firm up after we’ve been kneading it on our floured surface. If you have some of the dough sticking to your surface you can easily just wipe it up with your fingers and knead it back into the rest of the dough.Ìý

Zoe: We don’t wanna waste any of this lovely dough, do we?

Kuma: No, we do not! At this point, it’s still a very soft dough. You can easily mold it.Ìý

Zoe: Is it tacky, or is it starting to become more of a just soft and buttery? I don’t know how best to describe it!Ìý

Kuma: I would say “tacky”.Ìý

Zoe: “Tacky”. More so tacky?Ìý

Kuma: Like sticky tacky, right?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah, yeah!Ìý

Kuma: So, it can still hold its shape and it’s still moldable.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. All right, I got you! I got you!Ìý

Kuma: Okay, so now we’re going to…Ìý

Zoe: And see, I worked it past that point last time, so I definitely overworked it.

Kuma: Yeah, we don’t want that. We’re going to pat this into a rectangle on the board, or as much of a rectangle as you can get. You can use the heels of your hands.Ìý

Zoe: Okay. Would you use a roller or like a-Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, you can!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, you can even use your forearm as a roller, I guess you could also do it that way.

Kuma: Uh… I wouldn’t suggest it. But, yeah…Ìý

Zoe: I guess you can get your forearm nice and dirty, so yeah! Just use your hand!Ìý

Kuma: So, now we have a rectangle. You’re going to fold one end of the dough over into thirds. You’re gonna do three rolls of the dough.Ìý

Zoe: Okay, three rolls.

Kuma: I am going to be taking my rolling pin. I’m gonna be adding a little bit of flour to it.Ìý

Zoe: Just to make sure the dough doesn’t stick?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, just a tiny little bit. And, I’m gonna roll out the dough. While this is all happening, make sure your oven is preheated to 450 degrees.Ìý

Zoe: Nice and hot, I see.Ìý

Kuma: It is, yes!Ìý

Zoe: And, remember, careful with hot ovens. You wanna make sure that there’s no things to dry in the oven, or you keep other materials in the oven, make sure they’re all out of there. We don’t want anything burning.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. We’ve rolled out our dough. Try and get it to, I would say, half an inch thick. Now you’re going to cut out the biscuits. Now, if you’re somebody who doesn’t have a lot of baking gadgets; you can use, if you have, small drinking cups that are two inches in “circumference”. Or, not “circumference”, “diameter”. Diameter,Ìý

Zoe: Diameter.Ìý

Kuma: You can easily add a little bit of flour to that rim and use it to punch out the biscuits.

Zoe: That’s actually brilliant! Why did I never think of that?Ìý

Kuma: I have biscuit and cookie cutters. So, I’m gonna use that. And again, I’m gonna add flour to that.Ìý

Zoe: Ooh, okay, okay.Ìý

Kuma: Just a little bit. So, the oven is preheated. We’re cutting out our biscuits. There will definitely be leftover dough from the biscuits, which is okay. ‘Cause you can easily roll that back up and use it to make more biscuits.Ìý

Zoe: That is very true. Just roll it up. And would you press it out with a rolling pin again?

Kuma: Yeah. I would do that, yeah.Ìý

Zoe: Okay, yeah. ‘Cause, last time I didn’t even press it out with a rolling pin. I just squished it with my hands.

Kuma: Well, I mean, you can. But, there’s nothing quite like fresh biscuits.Ìý

Zoe: There’s a reason that my biscuits came out awful, and I’m assuming your biscuits here are gonna turn out spectacular.Ìý

Kuma: So, now we have our pan. We’re gonna spray down our pan a little bit.Ìý

Zoe: Is this a muffin pan, or is this just a regular baking sheet?

Kuma: Just a regular baking sheet.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, wow. So, cheap, easy to buy. If you keep it clean and put one of those- What are the wax things on the bottom called?Ìý

Kuma: Oh, Silicone Baking Mats?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah! Yeah, silicone baking mats. It makes the cleanup so easy, and it makes it so you don’t burn food to your baking sheets, and it really helps increase the longevity of them.

Kuma: Mm-hmm. But, spray it down with just a touch of oil. We don’t want the biscuits fully sticking. So, now we have those biscuits that are cut out and we’re gonna set them inside. So, in total, out of this dough, I have 10 biscuits. Out of this whole doughy dough. Those will expand too, so make sure they have room to expand.Ìý

Zoe: 10 biscuits, that’s a lot of biscuits. But, they are delicious! My guide dog, Tucker, he’s a fun, goofy guy. But, he’s also kind of picky. He’s a very quiet dog, but the last time he barked was when Kuma’s focaccia bread was sitting on the counter and he saw it. I was standing nearby and he jumps like straight up into the air and goes, “Woof!”Ìý

Kuma: ³Û±ð²õ.Ìý

Zoe: These days, whenever I’m cooking or whenever I’m doing something in the kitchen, he does not come and check it out. He’s just like, “No, thanks. I’m all good.” But, if Kuma’s in the kitchen doing anything arbitrary in the hopes of getting like a taste of their bread or a treat from them, they will sit right outside the kitchen and just watch.

Kuma: Should we tell the public about why he does that?Ìý

Zoe: I would consider it a learning opportunity. So, yes. Now, we have a special name for our the meals that I make. I won’t say directly, but just know that they’re terrible! So, if it’s like a “Zoe Meal”, that means a certain thing. Because, when I first moved in to my new place and Kuma was teaching me cuisine and lending me their cookware and everything and being just an outstanding person. I was basically a complete cooking newbie. I didn’t know anything about it. I was under the impression that when you combine a lot of things that you really enjoy together, then they taste better together. For instance-Ìý

Kuma: Which is not true all the time.Ìý

Zoe: That is not true. A “Zoe Meal” is when you do something like; “I love Junior Mints and I love Hot Pockets. Let me put Junior Mints between these two Hot Pockets, microwave it so the Hot Pockets cook and the Junior Mints melt then together, and then put more over it so it’s like a chocolate confection with Hot Pockets in the center!”. I can tell you from a friend’s experience, it’s not very good.

Kuma: No. No… Okay, so we’ve rolled out our dough. We’ve cut out the biscuits. We’ve placed them on the pan. You’re gonna take a little bit, maybe a tablespoon max, of buttermilk, put it in a cup, and you’re gonna take like a little silicon cooking brush and brush the top of the biscuits with it.

Zoe: And, those brushes are just like a couple bucks.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. They’re really easy to buy. So, we’ll use them for cooking and baking. A lot of people use them when making barbecue. ‘Cause they’ll sop the sauce all over the meat. Okay, so now our oven is preheated. Everything is ready. We’re gonna take the pan and put it in the oven. Because I bake frequently, my recipes tend to just say the timeframe of, “bake until this color.” I will say that’s not for everyone and it depends on the oven you use as well. So, I would say, typically, 10 to 15 minutes or lightly browned on the top.Ìý

Zoe: Lightly browned. I’m sure if you’ve ever had like a really nice crispy, flaky biscuit then you’ll know what it looks like. You don’t want it to go dark brown. Then it’s starting to burn!Ìý

Kuma: Yep.

Zoe: Ooh, that heat!Ìý

Kuma: Okay, so now that’s in the oven. Now we can clean up!Ìý

Zoe: So, while you’re cleaning up, Kuma, you’ve told me a lot about the Crockpot Cooking, the biscuits. But, since you’ve been such an inspiration and taught me so much, I’d like to ask you some questions about; let’s say your background and what a Crockpot means to you.Ìý

Kuma: Can I pull up this bowl first?Ìý

Zoe: ³Û±ð²¹³ó!Ìý

Kuma: Okay, let me do that.

Zoe: That’s what the cleaning’s all about!Ìý

Kuma: Then we can circle back to your questions, because I just dropped something and it made a loud noise. Let me do this real quick, okay? Plus that “dough bowl” has to soak.Ìý

Zoe: If you’re cleaning, you can always soak the bowls and whatnot. I’m really thankful that you agreed to come and be a guest on this episode as well. Because, next week I’m planning to invite a guest on who will talk about what it’s like cooking and eating not only without vision, but with diabetes as well! It’ll be really interesting because she’s going to likely give us a recipe for a dessert. I’ve really never actually thought about what dessert would look like or what even shopping would look like without vision for someone who has to watch their sugar and calorie intake. So, it’s gonna be really amazing! But, for this week, Kuma, thank you for helping me start this miniseries on Crock-Pot meals! How much did you get this Crock-Pot for? I’ve always wondered.Ìý

Kuma: Oh, I bought it used, so I spent less than $10 on it from Goodwill.Ìý

Zoe: That’s so nice. It could be a little bigger, but at the same time you can get one of these easily for 10/ 20 bucks from Goodwill. That’s amazing!Ìý

Kuma: You can get bigger ones- So, this is a four-quart one. You can get a six-quart one. I think they sell ’em, at minimum, $30?Ìý

Zoe: That’ll hold a lot of stuff. I know a friend who made Lamb Rogan Josh.Ìý

Kuma: Ooh, yummy!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah! It was really good in the slow cooker. ‘Cause they slow cooked the lamb neck until it was… Fall apart- You could have eaten it with a spoon, I tell you!Ìý

Kuma: Give me the recipe! Please! I love a good lamb recipe!Ìý

Zoe: Oh, goodness, yes! Just seasoning it to how you like. Tasting is always nice. So, can you tell me a little bit, while these buttermilk biscuits are slowly getting ready to be eaten, can you tell me a little bit about what Crock-Pots or like, you know, Crock-Pot cooking has meant to you growing up, and how they’ve influenced your life and how you see cooking?

Kuma: Kind of just what I said earlier about it being a good way for my family to make hot meals. I grew up with divorced family and a single parent taking care of me, working 12/14 hour shifts sometimes. So, him getting this all ready before he’s going to work, and I am his child who has to eat, and he has to eat too. It’s a good way of having a hot meal ready after a really long day.Ìý

Zoe: That sounds so amazing. You were in the kitchen for not too long, and you prepped everything and just got it into the Crockpot, but it seemed so easy, and I was done. All I had to do was season. There was so little effort involved, but a big time investment. So, for you folks who are at home and you’re on the edge like, “I don’t know if I should.”, this can make such amazing meals. This can make a pot roast. You can make wonderful Indian Curry dishes. You can make this soup, other soups, things that need to pressure cook. When I tell you that really good slow-cooked pork comes out falling off the bone!Ìý

Kuma: And that’s low heat-Ìý

Zoe: That is low heat…Ìý

Kuma: for a long time.Ìý

Zoe: What was that place that we ordered from? Well, not ordered from. What was that place that we went to that was practically the best barbecue in Portland, I would even say! That’s a personal opinion, but still!Ìý

Kuma: Reverend’s Barbecue.Ìý

Zoe: That’s right, Reverend’s Barbecue. The pork ribs that he gave us, fell off the bone! It was so good!

Kuma: Where were we?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, you were talking about a hot meal, ’cause your dad would leave for work. You needed to eat, he needed to eat and this seems a lot healthier than taking even a Pasta Roni and just whipping it together; it seems so much easier than those frozen meals too, so much more nutritious.Ìý

Kuma: It really just depends on who you are as a person. It’s totally up to you. I love a good soup. I love a good stew. Stew with a grain next to it. That’s the life for me.Ìý

Zoe: Do you remember that time, that you and I went to one of my favorite childhood places back then, that I remember? I would come to Portland to play like table tennis, and sometimes afterwards, out of necessity, we would go shopping at this place called “Phu Bon” in Portland. Do you remember last time, Kuma, that you and I went to Phu Bon like about a month or so ago?Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: What did I get from the deli again? It was like a really delicious Banh Mi, right?Ìý

Kuma: Oh! I think you got a like-Ìý

Zoe: Like a Barbecue Pork Banh Mi?

Kuma: Yeah, I think it was barbecue pork, or it was some Marinated Pork Banh Mi.

Zoe: It was a really good meal, and it was only five/ six bucks, I think?Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: What did you get again? ‘Cause, I got so clapped by whatever you got!Ìý

Kuma: So, folks, let’s bear in mind; Zoe cannot see anything!Ìý

Zoe: Or smell. I have no sight and no smell-Ìý

Kuma: Or smell. We were at the deli, and I looked down and I saw on their menu they had this thing called fish stew and it looked really good. Now, I would say maybe my definition of stew is a little bit different from theirs, which is perfectly fine. To each their own. No judgment. But, we’re talking fish steaks sliced straight through the vertebrae, skin still on that was simmering in a pot with, I think, onions, garlic and ginger was in there?Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, yeah.Ìý

Kuma: And it looked really good! Really, really good! It was only… I think I only paid-Ìý

Zoe: It was like seven bucks.

Kuma: Yeah!

Zoe: And, you got a small and the thing was huge!Ìý

Kuma: Yeah. And Zoe, our dear listeners; I think the terminology was, “batshit insane”. You called me “batshit insane” for getting that.Ìý

Zoe: I didn’t call you “batshit insane”. I called you “bonkers off the rockers”.Ìý

Kuma: Okay, well close enough to me!Ìý

Zoe: “Bonkers off your rocker”, or something like that.Ìý

Kuma: Close enough to me. Granted, I also knew she couldn’t see it, but it looked really good. It smelled really good.

Zoe: For context, the last time that I talked about fish stew consistently with Kuma, has been, “I’m gonna get it. I’m gonna get this British Fish Chowder with Curry Powder and Mashed Peas on the side!”, and Kuma was like, “If you bring that home into this house, you are disowned!”.

Kuma: Zoe.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah?Ìý

Kuma: Bless your stupid little heart.Ìý

Zoe: Ah! No!Ìý

Kuma: Bless your soul…Ìý

Zoe: Thank you. So, when I heard that Kuma was getting fish stew from this hot deli, I was immediately like, “What? That sounds horrible!” Again, because I had no prior conception of what it was, or how they had made it. But, it was so different from what I expected. The container was a big cylinder, and I don’t think you even managed to finish it.Ìý

Kuma: No. It was multiple meals.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, you steamed some rice and you got multiple meal. It was only seven bucks! What was the flavor like?Ìý

Kuma: It’s been a month. I’m trying to remember! Oh, no!Ìý

Zoe: No worries!Ìý

Kuma: So, the fish fell right off the bone. That was slightly sweet. With that fishy taste. Then the aromatics. The ginger, the garlic, the onion. But, then also-

Zoe: There was like this earthiness to it too that was seamless.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, basil maybe?Ìý

Zoe: I think it was basil. ‘Cause, I don’t know how they made it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they had slow-cooked it in a crockpot. The flavors were spicy. They popped. They came together most beautifully, and that fish was so tender and so flavorful. It was so good!Ìý

Kuma: You thought I was…Ìý

Zoe: I thought you were absolutely insane for getting it.Ìý

Kuma: Yes, and then I proved you wrong. Like almost always …Ìý

Zoe: yeah, on the ride home, I was like thinking to myself, “Oh, I’m so happy I got a Banh Mi, and Kuma got some awful little fish stew thing! They’re gonna know pain when they get home!”. Then there I am like being like, “Oh, this is a good Banh Mi.”, and Kuma’s over there being like, “This is the best dang fish stew ever!”. I was like, “No… There’s no way. I must have some…”. Sort of evil villain-esque and then being like, “It can’t truly be that good.”. I tell you all folks listening at home, it genuinely was! I still need to find the recipe for that, because if I could slow-cook a fish stew like that! I would be over the moon!

Kuma: Mm-hmm!Ìý

Zoe: How are the biscuits looking so far?

Kuma: They’re not quite golden yet, but they have risen, and the nice part about buttermilk biscuits with the butter and the buttermilk is they slightly separate just a little bit. So, we’ve probably got about 10 more minutes, just based off of this-Ìý

Zoe: I suppose, yeah. That’s the art part about being fluid, knowing exactly when they’re done. ‘Cause if you have like smaller biscuits, they’re gonna cook faster than if you have big plonk biscuits.

Kuma: Mm-hmm.Ìý

Zoe: So, yeah. It’s all about having your time, having your measurements, but cooking to your own tastes and your own desires. Like this soup, maybe somebody might find it not salty enough. Maybe someone might find it too savory. Maybe someone might want a little bit more pepper, or a little bit more lemon juice, or white wine vinegar. It’s all about being able to customize, turn it into what you enjoy, and what can fit your diet as well.Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm.

Zoe: For me, growing up, having to play a lot of professional table tennis, it was very important that I get the right nutrients. So, it’s something I always like to think about. But, cooking wise, I’ve only ever thought about the eating aspect of it, never like combining different ingredients like carrots, corn, potatoes, beef, all the things you need like your starchiness, your meatiness, your vegetables, your greens.

Kuma: Mm, girl…Ìý

Zoe: is it that good?

Kuma: You’re just like, “Flavor is everything,” and it’s like there’s so much more than flavor!Ìý

Zoe: That’s true. Part of it is also how I grew up, just having a lot of very flavorless food and consistently bland food. So, going out into the world, trying some foods for the first time; I never had a “gyro” until I was 23, yes. A “gyro”?Ìý

Kuma: “Gyro”.Ìý

Zoe: Gu- gyro?Ìý

Kuma: “Gyros”!Ìý

Zoe: If anyone has any feedback on how that’s pronounced; I always heard that people called it, “gyro”.

Kuma: So, what I’m doing right now is I’m pulling out the bones.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, okay. And if you take those bones, you could pressure cook those, right?Ìý

Kuma: Yeah, you totally can. I would just say, because it’s filled with like spices and everything, maybe not.Ìý

Zoe: Ah, that’s true, yeah-Ìý

Kuma: That’s just me, personally.Ìý

Zoe: Although, the way that my mother used to put it; she would pressure cook the bones until they created a stock and were so soft that, according to her, you could feed them to dogs. I wouldn’t personally do that, because pork bones they don’t splinter like chicken bones, but if they have like a hole in the center they can get caught in dog teeth, or if it’s too hard the dog can injure themselves. So, always be careful about what you feed your dogs.Ìý

Kuma: Yeah.Ìý

Zoe: But yeah, growing up, we had this pressure instant multi-cooker. But, it was interesting because we never really used it to its full potential. Mostly we just cooked like rice or porridge or, occasionally, some pork. But, I never learned about what Crockpots really could do here. This is such an amazing, hearty, and delicious soup. Pre knowing Kuma, I would’ve never known how to make it. So, in a way, I suppose this heals my trauma and it also makes me jealous of the Crockpot. He’s mine now!Ìý

Kuma: You’ll get your own Crockpot!Ìý

Zoe: I will!Ìý

Kuma: Okay? That’s not the issue. What was I gonna say?Ìý

Zoe: I don’t know. Will Santa bring me a Crockpot?Ìý

Kuma: Santa’s bringing you Ugg Boots, because that’s what you asked for.Ìý

Zoe: That is true. I do want a good pair of Ugg Boots.Ìý

Kuma: Oh, I know! Fiber. We were talking about fiber. You had mentioned fiber. So I would say a lot of people don’t actually have a good fiber intake nowadays.Ìý

Zoe: That is true, yeah.Ìý

Kuma: Beans are the most common way of getting a good source of fiber. People don’t eat a lot of beans. Which is to each their own.Ìý

Zoe: And I know that some people are like, “Oh, the calories or the carbs”, or whatever. But, if you’re worried about that you can also go with like some good celery. Raw celery is really good.Ìý

Kuma: I would say, too, it helps prevent colon cancer. It’s not just good for your body, but beans provide a very good fiber content and also really good protein content. So, if you’re a vegetarian and you don’t eat meat, beans are a good way of getting it; or vegan, too.Ìý

Zoe: That is true, it’s really good to get lots of good fiber. Doesn’t spinach have a lot of good fiber too?Ìý

Kuma: “Iron”.Ìý

Zoe: Oh, “Iron”! Gotcha! Spinach has always just been a real favorite of mine, ’cause it’s got flavor, it’s got depth, and you can eat it raw on sandwiches. You can have it in a salad, in soups- Oh, it’s got so many wonderful uses!

Kuma: We’re gonna pull out the biscuits now.Ìý

Zoe: Okay. How do they look and smell?Ìý

Kuma: That’s a hot oven. Nice and golden brown!Ìý

Zoe: I don’t actually hear anything. Is that normal?Ìý

Kuma: Huh?Ìý

Zoe: I don’t hear anything. So, I suppose I won’t be able to tell by, if you can hear me by listening to them whether they’re done, but… Oh, yeah, if you tap on them, they’ve got this nice sorum hole, but also you can tell that it’s a nice thick biscuit sound to them. They’re not sizzling or anything. So, our buttermilk biscuits are done and the soup’s ready. Let’s go ahead and plate it up and see how everything tastes together! Thank you. That’s such a nice warm bowl of soup, and with a buttermilk biscuit too. Oh, divine!Ìý

Kuma: So, the biscuit is in there. I like having a grain that sops up the soup-Ìý

Zoe: sops up that soup, that lovely broth!Ìý

Kuma: Mm-hmm. So, why don’t you try it?Ìý

Zoe: Okay!Ìý

Kuma: There’s the biscuit.Ìý

Zoe: Along with some broth, yes.

Kuma: Hope it’s not too hot for you.

Zoe: The beans have integrity. They’re not mashed. They’re really good. The soup has flavor, and the biscuit has that nice doughiness. It’s so delicious! It’s like when you just pour cereal into the milk and it’s still crispy, but it’s still in the milk! It’s kind of like that. It’s so good. Oh, I’m crying a little bit.

Kuma: If you can’t tell, this is a common occurrence in our household where Zoe cries over food.Ìý

Zoe: Yes. But, yeah, what are your opinions on the meal? Give it a taste. I can’t wait!Ìý

Kuma: I think it’s delicious! I don’t know. I cooked it!Ìý

Zoe: Truly, but yeah, I need the chef’s seal of approval!Ìý

Kuma: Oh, goodness. Okay. Okay… oh, my God, so good! All this childhood, right there.Ìý

Zoe: The biscuit is just so full of flavor, so amazing. If y’all can’t tell, one of my main roles is to exasperate Kuma!

Kuma: She has succeeded this time.Ìý

Zoe: Yeah. But, at the end of the day, when you taste it and you hear nothing; usually, for me, that’s a good sound. Because, that means that they’re so enjoying the flavor that they have nothing to say.Ìý

Kuma: Can I go enjoy my meal now?Ìý

Zoe: All right. Well-Ìý

Kuma: I’m hungry, okay?!Ìý

Zoe: Yeah, we’ve been cooking for a long while, and thank you for listening, everybody! So, with that, thank you again, Kuma, for guest hosting this new miniseries on Crock-Pot Meals. Tucker and I are signing off, and Kuma’s gonna say bye to you in a second as well. Thanks for listening, everybody!Ìý

Kuma: Bye-bye! Enjoy your meals!Ìý

Zoe: Yay!

Outro

Asher: Thank you for listening to Let’s Talk!, ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½’s broadcast about disability culture. Find more information and resources concerning this episode and others at pcc.edu/dca. This episode was produced by the Let’s Talk! Podcast Collective as a collaborative effort between students, the Accessible Education and Disability Resource Department, and the ¶¶Òõ¸£Àûµ¼º½ Multimedia Department. We air new episodes on our , our Spotify channel, , and .